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On October 14 2008 11:05 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 06:25 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
or maybe its extractor trick and he mistaken it for ovy?
at 9 drones make extractor to free up supply and then make a drone. cancel the extractor after making the drone and your at 10/9.
i think he just meant the muta stack with ovy though. (you can also use a burrowed ling to stack mutas) ... This is a joke right? Incontrol does not make mistakes.
On October 14 2008 14:21 nevake wrote:Show nested quote +As I said earlier ZvZ is in its most aggressive evolution yet. With the overlord trick scourge are relatively useless (in the 3 hatch scourge/ling form). They are however, not obsolete. In this context, it is referring to the ability to stack mutalisks (making mutalisks easier to micro, hence making scourge more obsolete).
??
On August 24 2008 17:56 goldenkrnboi wrote:
[ZvZ]
what is so called overlord trick?
[ZvP]
when ,if at all, is it ever viable to try and rush to hive tech? i tried once, but got completely owned.
i wasn't arguing with inc..
but whatever
and i happend to overlook this post
On August 24 2008 18:11 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2008 18:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i think overlord trick is talking about mutalisk+ol to make them stack
so the person going scourge cant clone his scourge well to kill the mutas oh. that ovie trick. got it.
he already got his answer
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ok i just try to follow ur suggestion incontrol and going 9 pool vs z@destination.. he did 12 pool and when i arrive with my 6 ling he ha dalredy a sunken and lair going...
My question is:
What i have to do? Insist with mass ling or try to catch he on lair?
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On July 15 2009 17:59 LuDwig- wrote:
ok i just try to follow ur suggestion incontrol and going 9 pool vs z@destination.. he did 12 pool and when i arrive with my 6 ling he ha dalredy a sunken and lair going...
My question is:
What i have to do? Insist with mass ling or try to catch he on lair?
well you will have a ling # advantage until he gets his second hatch up, so you should do your best to abuse that. Also, with a 9 pool speed, you SHOULD have your lair going faster than him. If he has a sunken, set up a sexi ling conclave at the bottom of his ramp once you can no longer harass effectively (when his production picks up), and you can use the block to try and hold his lings till mutas come.
I don't know what admins think of the bump...
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Early zergling aggressive builds are really bad on Destination in ZvZ due to the super long rush distance + guaranteed scouting + ramp.
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i prefer bump this thread than open a new one..
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I dont think a lot of cheesy openings work very well on destination as long as you scout well.
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we really need more protoss guides 
I have been getting owned at C level by zergs in most maps, including ones that favors protoss.
But maps like Destination, Neo Medusa, and Colosseum were just a nightmare for me.
To my dismay, most streamers are zergs users as well lol. Shauni and Eg.Louder are very so rarely online, and Oystein just switched from Random to Zerg too.
I know even a cave man is supposed to be able to do it, but... T_T
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On July 16 2009 03:17 Leath wrote:we really need more protoss guides I have been getting owned at C level by zergs in most maps, including ones that favors protoss. But maps like Destination, Neo Medusa, and Colosseum were just a nightmare for me. To my dismay, most streamers are zergs users as well lol. Shauni and Eg.Louder are very so rarely online, and Oystein just switched from Random to Zerg too. I know even a cave man is supposed to be able to do it, but... T_T
i am protoss, i agree with you
i think Zerg race is dominating right now in low level (C- C C+ B-) play i mean
if tow players with the same Rank, for example; an C ranked Zerg vs a C ranked Toss, The one with Zerg will win much more easy, 5hatch Hydra is Very easy to use and an Easy BO to win
i always thought that at the same lvl in PvZ, Zerg has more chance of winning
Zergs can make many mistakes and even stay in the game...
lol maybe Oystein is having a lot of troubles beating Zerg lol
my 2 cent
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edit: Just noticed this was thread necro
I'm curious to your thoughts about overpool>2hat lurk drop vs FE toss
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Thanks for the guide!
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on countering Sair/Reaver Toss, something that spells trouble for Zerg at pro level, but I played vs D and C ranked people that execute it pretty well also. On large, complicated maps it's quite difficult, especially if they focus more on expanding again rather then being overly offensive. Only thing I found useful is going basically all in hydra and try to get a good timing attack, preferably before he gets too many reavers, and definately before disruption web (it's mostly gg at that point unless you have double his base count).
Also thing that gives me trouble is terran mech. Other then the mindgame of hydra>goliaths>mutas>tanks>hydra and realizing i need to expand very aggressively I don't have a clue really. The problem is when the terran camps doing this, even with just his main and nat, he can produce a killer army of goliaths, tanks (and science vessels later on) that just owns anything muta/hydra. Good terrans will throw in the dirt cheap vultures just to be annyoing with mines too. Dark swarm feels nigh on useless, the tanks just rape the hydras like a joke. If he takes 3 gas ... and in some maps he can defend his third pretty well, much better then other races like desti or colo with properly cliffed siege tanks So it's hard to deny him that at times. One of the biggest problems is how quickly my mutas become obsolete once he gets a few science vessels forcing me to fight an uphill battle versus siege tanks.
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If he takes 3 gas ... and in some maps he can defend his third pretty well, much better then other races like desti or colo with properly cliffed siege tanks
I never have a problem on Desti. Mech terran armies are greater than the sum of their parts when they get big. If he waits until he gets big before he takes his third, then he was on 2 bases for much too long and you can roll him with your 5 base+ economy. If he takes his third when his army is of a decent size, then you just need to keep suiciding units at him to keep him from getting big, expoing while you do this, and eventually you'll run over him since he can't reinforce as quickly as you can.
Against Science Vessels, just don't stack your mutalisks and you should be able to separate/kill the irradiated mutalisk quickly enough.
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Pretty nice guide. I think it helped me to clear myself out few things about ZvZ, also few about ZvT. However I don't agree that in ZvP you should 12pool instead of 12 hatch. Some of the reasons: If you are focusing on macro game and taking your 3rd base asap, then 12 hatch is more economical build. However, with 12 pool you get earlier lings, but if your opponent plays without mistake he should have cannons/probes in the right position to defend a run by. What about scouting, with 12 pool probe will still scout your base as in 12 hatch, you cant prevent first scout coming. Also in 12 pool the hatch is later, and all modern protoss players try to delay your expansion as long as possible. If he gets a lot of hits on you, you will have to change drone, at that will take even more, and if he chases drone with low health you have to pull some drones of the mineral line for a few seconds, to defend it. All this adds up and may even put you behind economical. What about cannon rushes, it's pretty easy to defend, if he only has 1 or 2 probes, all you need to do is pull of 3-4 drones to keep delaying his cannons, and when the lings come out and finish the deal, he will have around 200 mineral lost, possible a 1 or even 2 probes lost and a pylon lost. All you have to do is to keep your overlord over your natural, and if he builds a pylon in place where the pylon placement itself isn't causing any harass, you know the cannon rush is coming, and you can deal with it easier than you could imagine. So my point is: cannon rush is not an excuse to go 12 pool instead of 12 hatch. THE only benefit you get from 12 pool, if that if you scouted the wrong direction with your overlord, with 12 pool you guarantee safety against 2 gate 1st zealot. So generally 12 pool is safer build from 2 gate rush, but knowing the popularity of protoss fast expanding these days, 12 pool is worst than 12 hatch in this MU. However, if you already got 12 drones, and you scouted that he's going 2 gate, there's nothing wrong going pool first, as you will have economical advantage anyway. Well that's all I wanted to say. Overal a great guide :}.
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One pvz strat that I as a z player have a lot of trouble against and I've played and lost to several times is when p goes for a mass goon several zealot early army with temps later, pushing towards you with a lot of goons when you have an inferior army of hydra ling. Whats the counter to a mass goon pvz timed push? Should I try to sunken up a lot, go for all lings early with speed, or mass hydra?
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On August 09 2009 02:29 Newguy wrote:
One pvz strat that I as a z player have a lot of trouble against and I've played and lost to several times is when p goes for a mass goon several zealot early army with temps later, pushing towards you with a lot of goons when you have an inferior army of hydra ling. Whats the counter to a mass goon pvz timed push? Should I try to sunken up a lot, go for all lings early with speed, or mass hydra?
Mass goon/ht is mostly a response to mass hydra. In this case you should use speedlings and +1/ +2 upgrades (since you probably already have 2/2 on hydra due to 5 hatch hydra strat.). While his goon count isn't very big, you can snipe high templars with mutas, that delays his push. while you do this accumulate massive army of hydra/ling with balance 2:5 (eg.: 18 hydras and 45 lings). If he engages you, move your army into sides, since storms most likely will be casted on the center. then attack with spread hydras and surround with lings. The wise toss will try to retreat, keep blocking his back with lings, and kill as many units as you can. If he doesn't engage you, tech to hive, add 3rd evo chamber, begin +1 spire carapace and do few rounds of drones. Keep an eye on his army movements, try to snipe his lone high templars, since his army might be to big to fly over, also try to spot his expansions. Also it's a good time for you to expand. When hive tech finishes get ultra den, +1 on everything, crackling upgrade, ultra shields, then speed. Now this is important part, try to scout what your oponent is doing. He will most likely to switch to zealot/archon, as his dragoon army got raped. However, sometimes toss goes for mass DT/Sair late game, or mass DT/Reaver. They do so if they realize you will go pure ultra/ling. If you fail to find out, but he hasn't got a lot of units, 2 spores and 3-4 sunkens on every base. Don't forget the main, as this where some protoss will most likely to go, depends if you built your all tech in the main base. If you are sure hes going Sair/something, mix in some hydras and get DEVOUVERS. Devouvers are under estimated by many players, they are such a great unit. Devouver reduces unit's attack cooldown so much, that the corsair will shoot like a scout. Also it increases the damage done to them, every shoot, +1 damage done. Now imagine hydras doing 22 damage to corsairs. that's insane. Also, how strange it could seem, mutas are also pretty good against sair, but let devouvers curse them first. However, you asked counter to goon/ht, so here it is, if you don't want to read my whole post: 2:5 Hydra/lings and some Mutas to snipe hts with ling micro does amazing things against goon/ht. That's all for now  .
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On July 16 2009 03:44 LuisMl8 wrote:
i am protoss, i agree with you
i think Zerg race is dominating right now in low level (C- C C+ B-) play i mean
if tow players with the same Rank, for example; an C ranked Zerg vs a C ranked Toss, The one with Zerg will win much more easy, 5hatch Hydra is Very easy to use and an Easy BO to win
i always thought that at the same lvl in PvZ, Zerg has more chance of winning
Zergs can make many mistakes and even stay in the game...
lol maybe Oystein is having a lot of troubles beating Zerg lol
my 2 cent
Zerg going 5 hatch hydra has alot of macro and other stuff to do, so few well casted storms can determine the game. Also 5 hatch hydra has defenseless early/mid game, with only like 12 lings and 1 sunken at 3rd expo. Try to use that. send your ~7 defending zealots to get the sunken, when the lings comes to help it will already might be to late. The good thing is that if you succeed you will take out expansion. Even if you wont take the expansion out, he will be forced to start producing hydras earlier. Many zergs will over-react, they will spawn like 20-30 hydras, as they already felt the threat. However, good zergs will have their overlords and burrowed zerglings in sight to see incoming attacks, so if you see hes with 12 lings around the sunken is already waiting for you, GO STRAIGHT FOR THE MAIN, many protoss players are afraid of that, but I would really advice you to do that. He will most likely wont have a sunken, take as many drones as you can and gas. If he does have a sunken, go straight for the main (dont kill the sunken, because the zerglings are already coming for you from behind). When you are in his main you got few things to consider. If you feel you can take his spire out, DO IT. You might also require some micro against zerglings for that. Also, hydras should be poping out now. If you kill his spire, hes in a big trouble. The reason I'm telling to go for the spire, because hydra den rebuilds much much faster than spire or pool. Don't go for the pool either, because he has easy survive without pool for some time, by massing hydras. But if you get his spire out, he wont be able to produce any mutas to harass you/snipe ht's, he wont be able to produce any scourges to patrol from ht/reaver drops. Use this to your advantage. If you cant pressure him early, expand, defend and keep dt in every possible place for him to expand (3 dt's won't make a difference in your game, but it really pisses of zerg). When he moves with overlord and some hydras to finally kill the dt, feel free to attack. This may be critical for zerg, hes focused to find and kill that dt, since he can kill incoming drones for a transfer, or kill expansion while its morphing. Just move out with your whole army, and cast storms that they would be half on mutas and half behind them. This just ruins the whole zerg army, since when you cast storms behind him, and he sees "red flares" on the minimap, he will 1 click 2 click 3 click 4 click 5 click on his natural/nearest base, to retreat, absorb the attack and buy some more time to mass up. If you do all this correctly, his whole army will be so f**ked up that you should easy run over him and take the game. Also you can attack 2 fronts in same time, because it gets really difficult to dodge storms, almost impossible. Also you can be try to be creative, make a surprise, use d. web with few sair, mix in your army few dt's, drop some dt's in one of his expansions and kill the drones. Remember, drone kills doesnt alarm zerg on minimap, so many wont notice that, especially when you cant see dt's on the minimap. So remember, if you can't engage his army directly, use his every move to his disadvantage, accumulate bigger army and run over him. That basiclly all, sorry for the long post, sorry for the cap's in some places, sorry for some gramatical mistakes I might made, sorry for the f word and sorry for double post ^^. I hope I helped you or some other protoss who read this. That's all. GL.
~ProoM
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6357/106bx3s.jpg)
