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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
As promised I am going to discuss modern zerg strategy as I understand it. This information is compiled from my experience watching professional vods/reading analysis, my own games with top non koreans and the replays I watch daily.
I will discuss the modern bo's, some variations, reasons for the bo's/decisions zerg gamers make and leave the rest of the topic open to discussion.
I am not the greatest zerg user. Some of you may even think I suck, and that is a perfectly valid opinion. But lets leave those comments outside of this. Rather, lets focus on aiding fellow gamers 
ZergVsZerg:
The Basic Build Order/Tendency:
ZvZ has broken down into a hyper aggressive game. No longer do you see the fashionable macro style where the extended distance between bases allows for 12 expand. Today you ask yourself 1 of 2 things, do I want to attack or absorb the attack. This is the dice we roll as modern zerg players. 9pool speed is the standard. I shouldn't have to tell you the build order so I will only discuss the post bo phase. After 100 gas is mined pull 1 drone from the gas and have it mine minerals. Macro at this point is crucial, the misnomer is that 9pool speed is an "all-in build." It is not. The mentality is that you want to risk winning with the mentality that you will create a fragile game style where the player opposite of you must react perfectly or face an unsurmountable strategic disadvantage. You do this in one of several ways, all of which call for scouting and proper "game sense." If the other Z has expanded and cancels you should pressure the base. Do not allow yourself to engage lings near the mineral line unless your advantage is clear and the battle is a mere semantic. Instead focus on picking off crucial drones and outnumbering spawning lings. If the Z has 12 pool'd you must put another drone on the gas (3) and begin to macro at home with a quick lair. This is so that you can possibly get the zerg to overreact by making a sunken/more lings and consequently be being in lair tech. From there you will pressure with the tech alone, forcing them to cut drones or make spores. Respond by massing ling or macro'ing respectively. Most common however is that they themselves 9pool speed. This is where ZvZ becomes a fascinating chess game and battle of wit/balls. You can engage this in several ways. One is to maintain the ling army and either guard your own ramp (from the top) or pressure him at his. The idea here is that you will lead out lings from the ramp and with superior positioning/micro win the ling battle by maintaining stronger control. Another reacttion is both players observe the other with their overlord(s) and simply shift into a macro game. No advice necessary for this specific situation since it is a standard ZvZ situation. Another response is to cut lings yourself and instead depend on the ramp position to make up the slack. From there you macro and hopefully take advantage of the extra 3-4 larva your opponent used to make lings.
ZvZ Mentality:
As I said earlier ZvZ is in its most aggressive evolution yet. With the overlord trick scourge are relatively useless (in the 3 hatch scourge/ling form). They are however, not obsolete. As discussed in my previous Strategy Guide I recommend standard mutalisk armies with a secondary force of scourge. I usually time this (after my 12 pool -> gas -> macro/hatch) so that when I have around 12 mutalisks (10-11 depending on situation) I can make 4-8 scourge with the surplus gas. The idea is to engage the enemy mutalisk force with my mutalisks while having my scourge force a distance behind. Space them so that they are evenly spaced about a half inch a part. Once the muta battle has begun bring in the scourge force. Tell them to move PAST the enemy mutas. Once they are amidst the mutalisks hit "A" and they will (for the most part) hit enemy mutas 1 per muta. This is one of my favorite tricks and part of the reason I am as successful at this mu as I am.
I advise against overlord picking / mutalisk patrols. We are not progamers. We do not have the 400 apm and micro that makes this worthwhile. In fact the risk of giving free hits to the responding mutalisk force is unequal to the benefits you can get from winning an overlord or two. Instead my advice is to wait for the other zerg player to get anxious and do this. Space overlords around a healthy perimeter of your base/expansion so as to see an attack and respond. Chase the mutalisks as far as it is safe. ZvZ is a VERY fickle mu. Even 1 of these engagements can do enough damage to make the deciding battle a clear victory for the patient zerg.
An easy and very cost effective thing to do is take 4-6 lings away from your force and keep them out of view. If the other zerg player gets overly aggressive you can go get 2-3 drones that can be game deciders with relatively no risk to you. Remember, zerg's are aggressive these days, the smarter reactionary zerg will win. Play like a hacker.
[Ask Questions specifically to the ZvZ section by labeling it as such please]
ZergVsProtoss:
Build Orders/Tendencies:
Gone are the days where we could 12 expand. Gone are the days where protoss were a early threat. Again we find ourselves playing an odd marriage of aggressiveness and patience.
What are good openings vs FE protoss?:
My personal favorite is again the 9pool speed. Pull all drones from the gas after 100. Make 6-10 lings and kill the scouting probe. From here the game is decided by the protoss. If they get cocky and rest on 2 cannons and proceed with expansion you can overrun with 12-14 lings, easy game. If they block with a few probes and expand (and you can run by) do so, run by. If they completely seal the expansion in by blocking it with probes kill scouting probes and double expand / macro as usual. That being said MOST p's will respond by delaying their expansion and making 3-4 cannons. This is great because you have now secured them a no scouting situation and can have equal macro->better depending on how paranoid they are of your aggression.
Another opener that is more macro oriented and safer for the less comfortable of the 9pool speed is the 12 pool 12 expansion. This is reactionary again. Safe against a cannon rush or proxy gate but also able to match/exceed the protoss macro depending on the Z's style.
Some Z's still brave the 12 expand (map permitting of course). This is unwise however because the modern PvZ consists 98% of the time with an FE, and with minerals the way they are a blocked cannon rush is almost ALWAYS a possibility. Couple that with the 2nd most common P opening, proxy gate, and you have a mathmatical nightmare for the greedy zerg player.
How do I react to the standard Bisu style?:
There are a couple ways to approach this. One is a "Mondragon" esque approach and slap down a fairly early evo chamber to A. upgrade faster and respond to the +1 z lots B. make a spore to guard the overlords from the first sair. Or you can make a hydra den. Personally I prefer the hydra den as it allows me to gauge the situation. If they are cocky and dont cannon up its game over. If they go mass sair I needed the hydra anyway. The trick is to not go TOO hydra heavy if the situation doesnt call for it. It is important to secure that 3rd gas and advance to lurkers so as to slow down the z lot heavy army. Once the 3rd gas is secured I usually go 3 evo chambers. Probably the most effective response to bisu style is a strong macro style that is "sauron" in nature. Allowing the lurkers to cut up the z lot heavy army while the hydra/ling mind the tech units.
Lots of protoss will couple their attacks with a DT drop. This is especially effective because the assumption is that you are overlord condensed or unexpectant of the attack and thus unprepared. Be prepared! Its fairly common and can turn a clear win into a loss right before your eyes. Sunk/Spore is enough to buy you time to respond. The especially wary will add a few scourge and some hydra just to be safe.
Mind your expansions! The DT is in vogue. Spore/Sunken each expansion, especially main's natural expansions if you should secure one. One of the ideas behind the bisu style protoss is to take advantage of the DT cloak, dont allow them that comfort.
Remember to play the style of game the mu calls for. You dont need to do doom drops, harrass with muta or constantly pressure with your army. You need to limit the gas heavy army of the protoss to its natural base or perhaps 1-2 more (game length/style permitting). The idea here is to lean on their economy with your swarming army and make them spend their resources on thwarting your pressure. The bisu style tries to be as cost effective as possible. If you can mind the sairs/templar (including DT) you can pull ahead and drown the protoss in rivers of gooey zerg guts.
What if the protoss goes speed z->standard?:
This is not too uncommon from what we would do in the past. Standard games these days however often involve late game switches. Protoss no longer feel the need to remain staunch in a unit mix. Expect corsair late game or even reaver artillery. So what this does for us zerg players is we need to account for this, even preemptively by making a hydralisk den (not just pure ling/ultra) and even upgrading hydra attack. This is crucial. Protoss can _again_ shift the balance of the game by catching a superior zerg army/macro off guard with an invincible DT-Sair army.
Another response that is often negated is plague. DT are fairly weak units, so are corsairs. Late game zerg should involve defilers with an emphasis on plague. Swarm is nice for expansions but when it comes to the DT/Sair heavy protoss force coat it in red venom and watch as A. short term detection is offered and B. immediate damage is made useful. In my last strategy guide I argued against the use of defiler's ZvP, here we see its a necessary evolution as the DT/Sair become more common.
[Ask questions in regard to ZvP labeled as such]
ZergVsTerran:
Standard Bo's/Tendencies
Builds havent changed dramatically for zerg vs terran. 12 Expand is still viable, standard 3 hatch applies. Muta or lurk are both viable.
Personal advice: I like to go drops. With maps like Zodiac, Python and others in rotation.. we find ourselves again with the 1-2 island expansion maps. When T's are doing the standard FE -> 3rax+1 or tank bo we see that they are fairly slow to respond to drop/expand->island. This means you can keep the terran in its main base while you live off of 3 gas and tech to defiler. The tradeoff is great for the Z but it requires patience / intelligence. If you lose a drop or two you can edge the terran into a position where they can counter and win or thwart and be way ahead. Let the threat of a drop be enough.. or the actual drop if the situation permits.
[Like before, ask with tag specific q's]
Lets make this productive:
I know this is relatively short and has less content than the previous guide but I think that is largely in part because there havent been AS many changes as there was worth noting before. That being said, whatever is undercovered I can answer in as much if not MORE detail should you ask a question that requires that much analysis.
Hope this is helpful!
Enjoy~
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Oh this is nice, i'll read it tommorow for sure.
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omg I love you. just started playing again (lol like 2 time in 7 months) and this is totally helpfull
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
just in time, i am picking 1v1 again and i have decided to never touch tvp! i am reading up on the all the zvp i can, the overview you give is quite nice
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wow thx i will read this later forsure
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Very nice read. Thank you very much.
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Very nice. I think I need to read this again, but that has to wait until after free vs. Bright
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Very good. I especially liked the specific examples and reasoning behind them.
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OMG OMG OMG FINALLY a Zerg strategy!!!! :DDDDD Thank you so much! printing right now.
Edit: Finished printing + reading. It's a good guide overall and I like the handy tips you gave. The one part I felt you could have spent some time on was 3 hatch expand vs protoss FE. I feel that this is very standard in comparison to 9 pool speed ( i do see that a lot too though ) but I just felt you could have put your thoughts on it other than 'it can be cannon rushed'. I think cannon rushes aren't that big of a problem, especially since protosses can generally scout a 12 hatch and go nexus before forge, but even when they go forge first they rarely cannon rush me and most of the times it is unsuccessful because you can hop a few drones over to destroy it (there are some maps where it's pretty much impossible though)
I really like the ZvZ section - just watched the game you vs Jaedong rep that you uploaded too and that helped me a lot. Thanks for the great short guide :D
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On February 13 2008 15:13 Superiorwolf wrote:
I felt you could have spent some time on was 3 hatch expand vs protoss FE.
Well the thing is and I think what inc is trying to say is: you should 12pool ->3hatch expand.
Excellent current trend ZvZ guide. Maybe didn't detail what overpool build is like though, I find that one more common than straight 9speed(It is now sort of a meta-counter to 9speed imo), as you focus on an extremely fast lair and dont bother with ling speed but if the option presents itself and you face a 12hatch you can nonstop lings and overrun them right out of the gate, something you cant really do with 12pool..
Also ZvT.. Drops are great as said, getting a free island expand and defending it cheaply is wonderful, it becomes a beacon for drops as well which means you can telegraph drops easier and dont have to worry too much about them coming straight to your main. Zergs keep in mind the timings for the mu are now really in favor of a slow and methodical movement. You basically watch for initial gayness from the Terran, contain them via muta harass and lurker. Tech to defiler(Or straight to ultra if you caught them early on with something), keep them either contained or push them back in the center a little bit. Watch for drops around the phase where you normally would encounter the start of a push and thats it. Slowly wittle their pushes down with swarm runs and plague until you can overtake, if it becomes a multiple expand game for the Terran, thats usually not bad for Z as cracklings running around make far reaching expands look exposed, if you already have drop then abuse that in the event that the T is getting spread out across the map.
On February 13 2008 13:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Swarm is nice for expansions but when it comes to the DT/Sair heavy protoss force coat it in red venom
Yes coat it in red venom!!
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United States5262 Posts
This is so well-written and profound this is borderline Final Edit material imho. It's too true that ZvP has been revolutionized by Bruce Lee but it hadn't really occurred to me how much the Zerg side of the equation had to think about the response to the situation.
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United States7166 Posts
red venom is good and so is this guide. thanks geoff
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[Q] ZvP
what to do when the toss, 'over expends' after he FE and he teh to HT, he takes 2 expos, the mineral only and a oder expo to ( like on longinus, the mineral only and the expo with 2 gaz defending the ramp easy).
-The first reaction is he is gready so mass units and trie to go a all in mass atack, but damn HT/reaver/cannons/units can defend and then ur like gg.
-Mass expo ur self and teh to ultras and just macro to win in a long game ? If u over expand to much (mass drones and teh = less units) u can lose ur expos and game over.
-go for drop in main, he is mainly defending his expos not his main ?
what u think is the best thing to do ?
10x
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 13 2008 18:26 GodsDevil[5thF] wrote:
[G] ZvP
what to do when the toss, 'over expends' after he FE and he teh to HT, he takes 2 expos, the mineral only and a oder expo to ( like on longinus, the mineral only and the expo with 2 gaz defending the ramp easy).
-The first reaction is he is gready so mass units and trie to go a all in mass atack, but damn HT/reaver/cannons/units can defend and then ur like gg.
-Mass expo ur self and teh to ultras and just macro to win in a long game ? If u over expand to much (mass drones and teh = less units) u can lose ur expos and game over.
-go for drop in main, he is mainly defending his expos not his main ?
what u think is the best thing to do ?
10x
On a map like longinus a protoss can almost certainly safely double expand (not literally double, its shortly after the normal FE though, quicker than other maps). The safer reaction is to take the double gas expansion and quick tech to hive with 2 or 3 evo's going. The danger of this is a P can get rolling pretty good, despite your 2 geyser advantage and 1 extra mineral field. I usually try and mass 1-1 lings (fairly risk unless style is familiar to the Z user) and delay the second expansion of the protoss while I take the dual gas expansion. This works up until the P gets archons. By then however you should be around 2-2 with hive coming up. This allows you to have a better timed macro and deal with the strong P macro more adequately.
Other reactions consist of a drop or mass army. Both are risky in that they can prepare for both which in a sense, takes the strength of the decision out of your own hands and requires them to play along.
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Germany2762 Posts
very nice writeup there, thanks a lot geoff.
this can help me (as protoss player) a lot for my PvZ i guess.
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[G] ZvZ
On February 13 2008 13:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
[...]The idea is to engage the enemy mutalisk force with my mutalisks while having my scourge force a distance behind. Space them so that they are evenly spaced about a half inch a part. Once the muta battle has begun bring in the scourge force. Tell them to move PAST the enemy mutas. Once they are amidst the mutalisks hit "A" and they will (for the most part) hit enemy mutas 1 per muta. This is one of my favorite tricks and part of the reason I am as successful at this mu as I am.
InC:
Question - when you press "A", don't you have to left-lick at a target unit or location?
If so, in the midst of a muta battle, I find it hard to click on the ground, when I fail and click on one of my opponent's mutas, most of the scourges seem to get wasted attacking only this one.
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On February 13 2008 20:05 Metaspace wrote:[G] ZvZShow nested quote +On February 13 2008 13:59 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
[...]The idea is to engage the enemy mutalisk force with my mutalisks while having my scourge force a distance behind. Space them so that they are evenly spaced about a half inch a part. Once the muta battle has begun bring in the scourge force. Tell them to move PAST the enemy mutas. Once they are amidst the mutalisks hit "A" and they will (for the most part) hit enemy mutas 1 per muta. This is one of my favorite tricks and part of the reason I am as successful at this mu as I am.
InC: Question - when you press "A", don't you have to left-lick at a target unit or location? If so, in the midst of a muta battle, I find it hard to click on the ground, when I fail and click on one of my opponent's mutas, most of the scourges seem to get wasted attacking only this one.
I can answer this one. Let's say you're starting your scourge from below left of the decisive air battle. First you move past the mutas top right just past the battle, as they get in range of mutas you A-click on ground in around the same spot to force the scourge to find targets and attack. Since they're spread they tend to hit different mutas without the difficulty of cloning.
I never ever tell 8 scourge to attack one muta or risk doing so by attacking ground in the area where the mutas are immediately fighting each other. How stupid would you feel if you accidentally sent all your scourge to attack one of your mutas, then the rest died to glaves while being confused finding a new target?
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Belgium9947 Posts
What do you think of playing vs a DT-sair opening that gets a third gas expo before you get lairspeed and uses the faster second assimalitor to get quickstorm and defend all expo's (with low sair-dt count? Hydra all-in or macro game? Dont you have a lot of difficulty securing another expo before ovspeed?
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Im gonna try more 9pooling in zvp from now on.
Nice guide inc^^
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I don't think you have to fear the "blocked cannon rush" so much.
You know how that scouting probe sometimes gets out of the closet and sits on the spot you want to build your expansion hatchery? Well, you let him build 2 pylons to wall the minerals off and when they're almost done, you bring like 4 drones and hop them over the minerals. If you micro, he can't build a cannon, there's not enough space. So what he'll actually do is cancel his two pylons (if he still can) and you can resume mining.
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Thanks for the guide Inc, my understanding of ZvZ was seriously flawed before i read this.
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On February 13 2008 14:03 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
i love you
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very good advices, never realized modern zerg style, i still play my old 12 z style...
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[Q] ZvP
How do you play out 9 pool speedling against a standard 2 gate opening? Lately tosses I play against have been going 2 gate more often again. They go smth like 2 gate -> pressure or mass at ramp (depends on Z bo) and if they cant pressure anymore, they expand. With 9 pool opening, I still have to pump non stop lings until the hatchery at the expansion is up to be safe from his possible zealot attack. Then when the hatch is up and u can sunk, u start massing drones and at that time he comes out and expands himself. I always feel that in this situation u are at quite the economic disadvantage, with very low drone count and P having his Natural expansion warping.
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[Q] ZVP
Im reading through it now (at zvp). I always thought 12pooling was the devil!?
Also, you mention goign mondi style and dropping an evo for early upgrades. I like this, but don't you feel telling people to drop a spore for the first sair is kind of wasteful? ISn't this one of things that has always been stated?
nice guide!
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Calgary25980 Posts
Good.
I think 9 Pool and 9 Pool speed are both strong ZvP openings, however I don't feel 12 Hatch is as unviable as you make it seem.
That's my only complaint.
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[Q] ZvP
if the protoss fails to react to a high ling count, whether by just being a d-u-m protoss or lack of scouting, how do you decide whether to run by or try to break the cannons?
and if you deal a significant amount of damage with early lings what factors would make you want to try to finish quick with lings or hydras vs double expanding
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Very nice guide! I especially like how you mention in ZvZ that "pawn hunting" aka "overlord hunting" can result in free muta hits for your opponent which can quickly change a game from a win to a loss or vica versa. Not many people think about that.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 13 2008 21:52 bash9 wrote:
I don't think you have to fear the "blocked cannon rush" so much.
You know how that scouting probe sometimes gets out of the closet and sits on the spot you want to build your expansion hatchery? Well, you let him build 2 pylons to wall the minerals off and when they're almost done, you bring like 4 drones and hop them over the minerals. If you micro, he can't build a cannon, there's not enough space. So what he'll actually do is cancel his two pylons (if he still can) and you can resume mining.
This is IF all things go perfectly. Hell even progamers fuck up their blocked pylon defense.. I dont think its safe or fair to say "you dont have to fear" as if its some 100% block. Sure its possible to defend.. but its risky and in an important series or game why take an unnecessary risk?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 13 2008 21:11 RaGe wrote:
What do you think of playing vs a DT-sair opening that gets a third gas expo before you get lairspeed and uses the faster second assimalitor to get quickstorm and defend all expo's (with low sair-dt count? Hydra all-in or macro game? Dont you have a lot of difficulty securing another expo before ovspeed?
Well you are making a hypothetical situation that is unbalanced. If the map has an easy 3rd gas for the P (Loki II comes to mind) you would want to expand to those expansions yourself and take another so you remain at at least +1 expansion on the protoss. But if you do find yourself without speed and the protoss has 3 gas your best bet is to TRY and turtle more expansions. An all in against a 3 gas storm protoss is not "all-in" its suicide.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 13 2008 23:15 diehilde wrote:
[Q] ZvP
How do you play out 9 pool speedling against a standard 2 gate opening? Lately tosses I play against have been going 2 gate more often again. They go smth like 2 gate -> pressure or mass at ramp (depends on Z bo) and if they cant pressure anymore, they expand. With 9 pool opening, I still have to pump non stop lings until the hatchery at the expansion is up to be safe from his possible zealot attack. Then when the hatch is up and u can sunk, u start massing drones and at that time he comes out and expands himself. I always feel that in this situation u are at quite the economic disadvantage, with very low drone count and P having his Natural expansion warping.
This is a really good question. You will find 2 gates on python or perhaps other maps if they are bad/risky. If you 9pool speed either your ovie or your first 6 lings will find the A. zealot that has left to go attack in which case you surround and kill and chase the remaining zealots back to the P ramp or B. you will find them blocking the ramp. Cut lings immediatly and make your expanding hatch. Position the overlords so you can see if hes pumping zealots. If he has 6-7 you know this is not a joke, he will leave his base eventually. Make a sunk or two and responding lings at the hatch after you have macro'd. The misconception is that you have to continue to pump lings just to keep up. You dont. The protoss player has to keep at least 2 zealots at home to block the ramp else your speed lings will run by and its gg (all you have to do at that point is cancel hatch OR make 2 sunks at the expansion and defend the all-in counter). Kill scouting probes and dont allow the protoss to see beyond his natural. Most P's will respond by going a 1 base build in which you can have a faster economy. Some P's will push out and cannon/expand behind the zealot force. Again, run around the force with the 6 lings or so and stop the expansion and if you can go into the main. Your new expansion should have a sunk and the necessary amount of lings to thwart the zealot attack.
The idea here is that your countering abilities trims the zealot army at worst and at best wins the game/buys you necessary time. If you lose lings at no cost to the protoss army you will lose. 9pool speed is not for the faint of heart.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 13 2008 23:22 Hawk wrote:
[Q] ZVP
Im reading through it now (at zvp). I always thought 12pooling was the devil!?
Also, you mention goign mondi style and dropping an evo for early upgrades. I like this, but don't you feel telling people to drop a spore for the first sair is kind of wasteful? ISn't this one of things that has always been stated?
nice guide!
If you know the protoss is going sair and you dont want to make early hydra a spore is the only response. Its not wasteful if you react properly following it.
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I noticed most of these things you've described being demonstrated in your iccup replay packs! it's nice to watch your guide put into practice, it helps strengthen your points. thanks inc!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 00:31 yubee wrote:
[Q] ZvP
if the protoss fails to react to a high ling count, whether by just being a d-u-m protoss or lack of scouting, how do you decide whether to run by or try to break the cannons?
and if you deal a significant amount of damage with early lings what factors would make you want to try to finish quick with lings or hydras vs double expanding
great question
I decide by the situation. If the protoss even has 2-3 probes blocking entries or sitting by cannons chances are its too much to break (12-14 ling vs 2 cannons/3 probes for instance). I say situation, but really is positioning. If the cannons are poorly placed you can run by here or attack, based on whichever you think will work better. Honestly I think both are equally risky or equally effective. often times you can run by and end the game by harrassing the weaker probes/nexus while rallying 2 hatch lings to the 2 cannon expansion.
The hydra end game decision comes by the amount of damage you do. If the protoss loses 3-4 probes and pulls probes to chase off lings and builds a cannon in the main mineral line or so I would consider ending it with 3 hatch hydra. The thing that a lot of z's dont do however (non-korean) is they just pump lings. THis is where the harrass/opening of 9pool speed becomes an all-in build that is more risky than necessary. You need to harrass but also make some drones at home so your economy can surpass the protoss.
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Finally somebody advocating risk taking! <3
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incontrol when you go dual upgrade mass ling zvp, I see you a lot of times attacking +1 zealots head on with maaaasss 0-0 lings, wouldn't it be better to sunken up for that +1 rush then when your lings are 1-1 start owning?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I often (not always smart/perfect on this) engage +1 zealots when I think I have superior numbers / positioning. I have lost games from this. Making 2-3 sunkens is the safer method for sure.
But "waiting" for 1-1 is not always feasible. +1 zealots are beastly sure, but nothing to fear to the point of complete avoidance.
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well not like, avoid them completely, just get a couple sunkens, wait till zealots are attacking sunkens then attack, I just feel like it's not +ev to attack +1 zealots with 0-0 lings unless you have like, 5 lings to 1 zealot.
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I did watch a lot of your ZvP replays (iccup replay package thread). I just wonder what is the reason why you upgrade ling attack first rather than hydra attack even if you pump a lot hydras (way more than lings)+ huge use of lurkers? Few games you lost (my opinion) because upgrading that but you didnt even use ling attack (seeing 0-2 hydras attacking protoss when 2-2 updgrades goes waste).
Why not go 3 evo chambers, even 2-1-2 is better than 2-0-2 i think (or 1-1-2). Plz no "preparing for ultralisk" answer
(2-0-2 I understand if army is ling/lurker but its not usually)
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 03:51 Too_MuchZerg wrote:I did watch a lot of your ZvP replays (iccup replay package thread). I just wonder what is the reason why you upgrade ling attack first rather than hydra attack even if you pump a lot hydras (way more than lings)+ huge use of lurkers? Few games you lost (my opinion) because upgrading that but you didnt even use ling attack (seeing 0-2 hydras attacking protoss when 2-2 updgrades goes waste). Why not go 3 evo chambers, even 2-1-2 is better than 2-0-2 i think (or 1-1-2). Plz no "preparing for ultralisk" answer (2-0-2 I understand if army is ling/lurker but its not usually)
The "plz no ultralisk response" is the answer. Its obviously a preperation for late game, what other answer you expect?
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On February 14 2008 04:07 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2008 03:51 Too_MuchZerg wrote:I did watch a lot of your ZvP replays (iccup replay package thread). I just wonder what is the reason why you upgrade ling attack first rather than hydra attack even if you pump a lot hydras (way more than lings)+ huge use of lurkers? Few games you lost (my opinion) because upgrading that but you didnt even use ling attack (seeing 0-2 hydras attacking protoss when 2-2 updgrades goes waste). Why not go 3 evo chambers, even 2-1-2 is better than 2-0-2 i think (or 1-1-2). Plz no "preparing for ultralisk" answer (2-0-2 I understand if army is ling/lurker but its not usually) The "plz no ultralisk response" is the answer. Its obviously a preperation for late game, what other answer you expect?
[opinion]
Then why dont make army like scourge / ling / lurker and skip hydras (not wasting gas for hydra upgrades) and straight ultra then?
Its just that it liked that few games you had 30-50 hydras with 2-0-2 upgrades with zero-6 lings and survived few waves of protoss forces but then died to protoss compination that butchered hydras (few lurkers) even before hive tech is completed.
I was thinking maybe to use those hydra upgrades before ultas comes by good drops to protoss main etc. Getting late game is much harder when you die before that because of lack of upgrades from hydras.
[/opinion]
I certainly play lower skill level than you but I started experimenting all kind of things to stop protoss anhilating me before hive tech kicks in by making occasionally drop games, upgrading different order when needed before those mad cows gets possible job done. For me sometimes 2-1-3 is better than 3-0-3 upgrades.
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Upgrades are one of the longest commitments in the game, so like he said. he is just preparing for late game, yeah maybe it would be worthwhile if he was using mostly lurker/hydra force to have range attack upgraded but.. Its not your long game goal usually, and sometimes you just get caught by those type of situations.
I think another similar situation is if im preparing for a ultra/ling late game in ZvT, then something critical happens like I lose a major expand while countering to T so I am left with my main/nat vs his slow rebuild.. and I end up playing a scared defiler/lurker game with unupgraded lurkers. I might still win it, but I cant predict when something like this will happen so even though it would be easier with that range attack upgraded, i just cant predict that way. Best case is to upgrade after the fact, but even then we are talking several minutes to wait for it to even be finished, let alone start to affect battles.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
the hydras were probably situational and not planned. I dont like going hydra late game as they are weaker and probably couldn't afford to have 3 evos thinking rather that I could win with early hydra or NEEDED them to defend. The plan is for late game melee. But this topic is fruitless and not worth discussing further.
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Please link us to some of the games where Incontrol had 50 hydras and no hydra +attack.
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[Q] ZvP
I played a game on the map that has the Protoss Gas Chokes, and when you destroy them it basicly turns the game into an island game.
How do you play against a Protoss on this map when they mass sairs, I am talking about 2 control groups or more worth of sairs. I tried the only counter I could think of, Devs but even those were destroyed quite easily. Any type of drops are thwarted by Sairs and Dweb, and normally his bases are littered with cannons.
I guess the question is, how does a zerg take back air control from mass sairs when they cannot attack via ground units?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 06:06 Tiamat wrote:
[Q] ZvP
I played a game on the map that has the Protoss Gas Chokes, and when you destroy them it basicly turns the game into an island game.
How do you play against a Protoss on this map when they mass sairs, I am talking about 2 control groups or more worth of sairs. I tried the only counter I could think of, Devs but even those were destroyed quite easily. Any type of drops are thwarted by Sairs and Dweb, and normally his bases are littered with cannons.
I guess the question is, how does a zerg take back air control from mass sairs when they cannot attack via ground units?
I know the map you are talking about. I have only observed 1 game on it, and it was TvZ. So I have no idea >_<
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quit telling all the zergs to drop vs terran k? so annoying...
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<3<3<3 ZvP When do you upgrade hydra range/speed if you say you go Lurk first?
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Pure gold here. Anyways I was reading on your counters for toss and is there anything toss can do to counter the 9pool while FEing? Or will the zerg always end up ahead?
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Thanks incontrol, I'm loving your contributions <3
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[ZvZ]
What do you think about 9 hatch main 9 pool? Does 9 pool's faster lair just counter this straight up?
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On February 14 2008 12:22 5HITCOMBO wrote:
[ZvZ]
What do you think about 9 hatch main 9 pool? Does 9 pool's faster lair just counter this straight up?
Man i dont know if ive played vs that build with 9overpool but im pretty sure i tried it once or twice vs it to see how it would do.. and the overpool manages to keep up with you in ling count for a while if he wants to pump nonstop lings, his lair is gonna be like 50% before your hatch even finishes. All he gotta do is keep 1 drone on gas and economically he should be fairly even with you, good sunken placement and back off his ramp before you get overwhelming numbers and there should be almost nothing you can do, once his muta or two pops out you gotta get spore or you're dead.. then he can just keep massing mutas after putting a few drones back on gas.
Im trying to comb my mind for how 9hat/9pool does vs the other builds as I used to do it a lot back on gamei(I was awful compared to now though). Seemed good vs 12pool and 9pool speed, but not great vs 12hatch.
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This > Gold.
And I don't even play Zerg that much
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 13:02 red.venom wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2008 12:22 5HITCOMBO wrote:
[ZvZ]
What do you think about 9 hatch main 9 pool? Does 9 pool's faster lair just counter this straight up? Man i dont know if ive played vs that build with 9overpool but im pretty sure i tried it once or twice vs it to see how it would do.. and the overpool manages to keep up with you in ling count for a while if he wants to pump nonstop lings, his lair is gonna be like 50% before your hatch even finishes. All he gotta do is keep 1 drone on gas and economically he should be fairly even with you, good sunken placement and back off his ramp before you get overwhelming numbers and there should be almost nothing you can do, once his muta or two pops out you gotta get spore or you're dead.. then he can just keep massing mutas after putting a few drones back on gas. Im trying to comb my mind for how 9hat/9pool does vs the other builds as I used to do it a lot back on gamei(I was awful compared to now though). Seemed good vs 12pool and 9pool speed, but not great vs 12hatch.
9hatch/9pool is good on VERY FEW MAPS and ONLY maps that are great for 2 gate protoss or MAYBE bbs (but those maps are rare). For zvz its dumb and bad.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 10:05 DamageControL wrote:
Pure gold here. Anyways I was reading on your counters for toss and is there anything toss can do to counter the 9pool while FEing? Or will the zerg always end up ahead?
Toss can be fine if they position the buildings so it takes 1-2 probes to block. Also P's need to scout well. If the Z is making many lings throw down a sunk or two and wait for them to "all-in." If they are smart it becomes a standard game.
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[zvp] I prefer 12hatch, and haven't been cannoned in a long time, though I usually can't 12hatch because they block with probe, and I end up 12pooling, then making hatch at nat at 12, though it's sometimes delayed by the probe until my lings are out. If he FE'd, is it better to just place hatch at nat away from minerals and then making 3rd at the minerals, or waiting to make hatch at minerals after lings drive probe away, if I'm definitely 3hatching regardless?
This is probably in 3503945 other threads, but what are some basic zvp 3hatch bos vs fe p? I almost always 3hatch before making 3rd base hatch, 13hatch if I 12hatch expo, 14 or 15 if I 12pool'd or 9'd after ovy. I find myself having many things to use gas for, and very little gas, when should I be getting gas in main and nat, and when (on python) should I get my 3rd base hatch?
12pool 12hatch vs 9pool after ovy, 14 hatch (droned til 11, made 6 lings), what are your thoughts? I've never been a big fan of 9pooling, and 9pool afterv ovy feels a little more comfortable, I do this a lot on iccup when I expect cheese, or if they go random.
If I want to get a fast evo for spore and +1 armour, when should I make evo? And should I make lair before the armour, or armour first? 99% of the time my ovy can see his forge, and when he gets cyber, what kind of things am I looking for to decide when to get lair, speed, and +1 armour?
When should I add a second evo for melee upgrades?
[zvz] What kind of things should I consider if I go 9pool after ovy, drone to 11? If I have no idea what he's doing yet, is it safer to take my nat, get gas, and if I get gas, lair or speed first? And if I speed, should I take off gas, or keep on to lair? It feels like I auto lose vs z who 12hatch expo'd, because if I get speed or lair it's not fast enough to get an advantage over the z, his lair won't be far behind if at all behind, and his ling count will be enough that I can't do much damage with speed, and if I try to expo his superior hatch count will let him easily outling me. Is 9pool after ovy inherently bad? Economically it seems to counter 9pool pretty well, but his gas tends to be faster and I can lose to a faster muta or something.
[zvt] If I 12hatch, 11pool, 13hatch, 17 gas, and plan on going muta, when should I get my nat gas?
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This topic = epic win
Zer is finally becoming a strong suit with jaedong mauling everything in his path. people might actually fear vZ matches, yes even terrans >:D
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On February 14 2008 16:04 bumatlarge wrote:
This topic = epic win
Zer is finally becoming a strong suit with jaedong mauling everything in his path. people might actually fear vZ matches, yes even terrans >:D
qft
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 15:24 Nightmarjoo wrote:
[zvp] I prefer 12hatch, and haven't been cannoned in a long time, though I usually can't 12hatch because they block with probe, and I end up 12pooling, then making hatch at nat at 12, though it's sometimes delayed by the probe until my lings are out. If he FE'd, is it better to just place hatch at nat away from minerals and then making 3rd at the minerals, or waiting to make hatch at minerals after lings drive probe away, if I'm definitely 3hatching regardless?
This is probably in 3503945 other threads, but what are some basic zvp 3hatch bos vs fe p? I almost always 3hatch before making 3rd base hatch, 13hatch if I 12hatch expo, 14 or 15 if I 12pool'd or 9'd after ovy. I find myself having many things to use gas for, and very little gas, when should I be getting gas in main and nat, and when (on python) should I get my 3rd base hatch?
12pool 12hatch vs 9pool after ovy, 14 hatch (droned til 11, made 6 lings), what are your thoughts? I've never been a big fan of 9pooling, and 9pool afterv ovy feels a little more comfortable, I do this a lot on iccup when I expect cheese, or if they go random.
If I want to get a fast evo for spore and +1 armour, when should I make evo? And should I make lair before the armour, or armour first? 99% of the time my ovy can see his forge, and when he gets cyber, what kind of things am I looking for to decide when to get lair, speed, and +1 armour?
When should I add a second evo for melee upgrades?
[zvz] What kind of things should I consider if I go 9pool after ovy, drone to 11? If I have no idea what he's doing yet, is it safer to take my nat, get gas, and if I get gas, lair or speed first? And if I speed, should I take off gas, or keep on to lair? It feels like I auto lose vs z who 12hatch expo'd, because if I get speed or lair it's not fast enough to get an advantage over the z, his lair won't be far behind if at all behind, and his ling count will be enough that I can't do much damage with speed, and if I try to expo his superior hatch count will let him easily outling me. Is 9pool after ovy inherently bad? Economically it seems to counter 9pool pretty well, but his gas tends to be faster and I can lose to a faster muta or something.
[zvt] If I 12hatch, 11pool, 13hatch, 17 gas, and plan on going muta, when should I get my nat gas?
[zvp] I always make the hatch around the minerals leaving enough space for a properly placed hatchery.That or I just 12 pool in base and drive the probe away with 2 drones, unless they make a pylon then I just make the hatch with room for proper as I said.
The 3 hatch bo's is in a million posts. But its also in ever zvp replay these days. Dont be lazy, go look it up. I have over 160 replays on this site available for you if you want ideas.
9pool after ovie is fine. Its again a reactionary build, clearly you are trying to get the protoss to think its a standard 9 so they will make cannons and perhaps block with probes before slapping down the nexus, so make 4-6 lings and macro from there. Its a fine bo, just need to play it as it is supposed to be played.
Your upgrading question is situational. If you can, get armor before lair and towards the completion of your 3rd hatch. The overlord should see if the forge is moving, if a stargate is going down or if a robo/mass gates etc. Its fairly common sense.. dont really know what else to tell you. A huge part of success in BW is scouting. If something feels fishy it probably is. Start scouting around for proxy gates or some kind of quick 2nd expansion.
[zvz] 9pool after ovie is PURELY to absorb a 9pool. Its only slightly stronger economically so its a risk. If you think they are 9pooling do the after ovie variation. Otherwise you are worse off than having just 9pool speed. If you cant see the opponents base yet and its time for a 2nd hatch or lair your best option is lair. If you absolutely feel hatch is the order of the day, go in base. You can catch up to an expansion but there is no catching up to losing a placed hatchery. Its the kind of risks/math Z's do every day in ZvZ.
If you do 9pool speed you take 1 off gas and make lair at 100, then place 3rd back on.
[zvt] again the gas is situational. But if all is going smoothly you put the gas down at about the time the lair is finishing.
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Some Z's still brave the 12 expand (map permitting of course). This is unwise however because the modern PvZ consists 98% of the time with an FE, and with minerals the way they are a blocked cannon rush is almost ALWAYS a possibility.
if they do that u can just proxy hatch in his main 
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[Q] ZvP
Once, only once, surprisingly, I had a Toss proxy a 2 gate rush on python. I laid down sunkens in my main and took out everything he threw at me, and took the battle to his proxy. Turns out he sacrificed everything to tech to DT's and skipped sairs completely. Result: lings got slaughtered, sped to ovie speed up, mass DT's outside my main after killing my expo. When i tried to push out, he had reinforced his 6-8 DT's with a full force of goons. By the time I had a sizable muta force, I had to keep them there to fend off at my ramp. I lost because didn't scout properly and he was a better player completely, but how would you counter this? I don't have any rep, but I hope I painted a good picture. Thx in advance.
Edit: i 9 pooled btw, cause I found proxy really early, like he wanted me to find it O_O
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you should've went for hive tech and gotten plague before pushing out, when toss goes for a dt + goon combo, you need to plague the dts to weaken them and to make them visible, you don't want to waste your overlords to goons, plague the goons too before attacking them with mutalisks. After a two gate rush the toss tech will be delayed severely, if you see any evidence of a dt build immediately lay down a queens nest -> hive-> defiler mound, dts are deadly especially when they're invisible. hope that helped
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Yea probably have to work on my teching speed, i was all prepared for a lot rush too :/
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excellent, excellent writeup man. it appears i have completely misunderstood 9 pool speed.
q {ZvP}
Keep in mind im like a d+/c- zerg player. recently i have been fond of opening zvp with a 9 pool no speed for the purpose of delaying P's nexus, as he wil react by building a couple cannons.
something like:
9pool
9drone
ext trick
ovie
6 lings
expo
is it viable to build 3 drones after the pool instead of 6 lings, and then expanding yourself while his cannons warp in? essentially you would trick him into delaying his expo at the cost of 200 minerals (and a later 1st ovie), but is it worth it compared to just 12 hatching?
also, do you have any tips for playing vs reaver/sair? my preference is hydra play, aiming for lategame with defilers. sunk/spore at all expansions, spaced to force many dwebs if he goes that route. i get burrow for drones and ling scouting (although parasite seems very attractive), because i feel like air control is almost imopossible - especially on a map like RoV, where there is nowhere for land units in between the mains. generally i have the most difficulty when toss keeps 1-2 reavers (maybe a temp) at his expos, with just tons of cannons, while his main reaver sair force shoots around the map harassing me so i can't effectively attack. any general tips/strategies for facing this would be very appreciated.
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gj geoff
btw in ZvZ I see a lot of 12 pool / gas into 2 hat. 50/50 2nd hat is an expo (depends on the map) into nothing but Lings and then Muta and rely on Zerg going for too many Drones or rely on better micro. This is generally on non-ramp maps such as Blue Storm. This is good? For maps like Blue Storm / Troy / Baekmajoi etc...???
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INcontrol in a ZvT are Defilers usually a must use to come out with a win?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 07:45 Lokust wrote:
INcontrol in a ZvT are Defilers usually a must use to come out with a win?
hehe
I can sense inexperience in you
Read through this section, you will find lots of helpful discussion on ZvT. But yes defilers are essential to ZvT late game.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 06:15 G5 wrote:
gj geoff
btw in ZvZ I see a lot of 12 pool / gas into 2 hat. 50/50 2nd hat is an expo (depends on the map) into nothing but Lings and then Muta and rely on Zerg going for too many Drones or rely on better micro. This is generally on non-ramp maps such as Blue Storm. This is good? For maps like Blue Storm / Troy / Baekmajoi etc...???
Yeah actually. The idea is that lings go up in worth on no ramp maps because fewer number of lings = disadvantage whereas with a ramp you can get away with fewer lings. Maps like Azalea see these kind of bo's especially given the distance between bases. For a map like bluestorm you dont see it as much because if you block the 1 ling entrance they have to go significantly further which gives SOME reaction time. But it is still very common. The thing about blue storm is given the timing 9pool speed is just more superior than the 2 hatch builds because you can either survive to muta and win there or you can outright win with both faster lings (in terms of when they reach the opponent) and also FASTER lings (in terms of mobility).
2 hatch ling disco is great and should be reserved to maps without a ramp. But also keep in mind distances from bases. 9pool speed should be the first inclination given the style of zvz these days.
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the most common build Ive seen zvz is 9pool non-speed.
Considering going speed will cost you 100 gas and delay your lair/spire, how much damage do you have to do for it to be worth it?
I'm assuming most zergs will be able to tell by the lair timing with their overlord scouting (I'm not sure of the exact timing of this) and will probably guard their ramp. In which case, your speed doesnt really help until you break their ramp.
How far should you go with lings? Until you break through when you have an advantage?
If they match ling count, they should still have a bit earlier spire... how do you react?
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oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 09:25 fusionsdf wrote:
oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map?
9pool after overlord is good cause it absorbs the 9pool speed with slightly better macro. 12pool 11 gas is fine too but you might need a sunk.
9pool speed is better not because of what you spend but rather what you force them to do.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 05:40 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
excellent, excellent writeup man. it appears i have completely misunderstood 9 pool speed.
q {ZvP}
Keep in mind im like a d+/c- zerg player. recently i have been fond of opening zvp with a 9 pool no speed for the purpose of delaying P's nexus, as he wil react by building a couple cannons.
something like:
9pool
9drone
ext trick
ovie
6 lings
expo
is it viable to build 3 drones after the pool instead of 6 lings, and then expanding yourself while his cannons warp in? essentially you would trick him into delaying his expo at the cost of 200 minerals (and a later 1st ovie), but is it worth it compared to just 12 hatching?
also, do you have any tips for playing vs reaver/sair? my preference is hydra play, aiming for lategame with defilers. sunk/spore at all expansions, spaced to force many dwebs if he goes that route. i get burrow for drones and ling scouting (although parasite seems very attractive), because i feel like air control is almost imopossible - especially on a map like RoV, where there is nowhere for land units in between the mains. generally i have the most difficulty when toss keeps 1-2 reavers (maybe a temp) at his expos, with just tons of cannons, while his main reaver sair force shoots around the map harassing me so i can't effectively attack. any general tips/strategies for facing this would be very appreciated.
3 drones after 9pool is not viable. Its like taking a volkswagon instead of a Lamborgini (spelling?). I wont elaborate beyond this because the answer is simply, no. Just trust me on it.
As for the reaver/corsair defense this is a great question. I like to do a couple of things. Firstly, you need to sniff it out early. The reaver sair b/o is MOST effective (as are all things hehe) when you dont see it coming. So often P's will hide the tech within their base. You can smell this by seeing an idle forge, no zealot timing or simply sacrificing a second overlord to get a look-see. If you in fact are facing reaver/sair 1 evo +1 hydra attack is good and the game style needs to adapt. You are playing a cat and mouse game.. only the cat can regrow limbs. Each time you lose an expansion AT LEAST replace it, if not add another. The idea here is that you capitalize on the slower and high demanding bo of the protoss to weigh them down. While all you have to do is manage your expansions and move hydras around the map. While this is going on I like to upgrade armor on my spire for late game but also tech to drop. I do this because reaver/sair is MOST common on maps with island expansions, the protoss wants them. Dont let it happen, or at least make it hard. If you cant, use the drops to harrass the main base/production while you lurker drop mineral lines. An important thing to note is that often times when a z loses to a reaver/sair bo its not the actual reaver or sairs that do them in.. but rather the protoss secures enough macro to then switch to a ground army accompanied by the harrassing of reaver/sairs. Mind the tech of the protoss! If you see the switch add an evo chamber and make some lurkers. You should have also tech'd and should be able to make defilers/cracks/ultras etc.
Aside from that, the name of the game is starvation. The protoss NEEDS to secure expansions, if you can deny that with patrolling scourge and roving groups of hydras you will eventually see the protoss run dry.. and lose the game.
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On February 15 2008 09:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2008 09:25 fusionsdf wrote:
oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map? 9pool after overlord is good cause it absorbs the 9pool speed with slightly better macro. 12pool 11 gas is fine too but you might need a sunk. 9pool speed is better not because of what you spend but rather what you force them to do.
What do you force them to do if they block their ramp? Is it crucial to break ramp?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 10:07 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2008 09:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On February 15 2008 09:25 fusionsdf wrote:
oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map? 9pool after overlord is good cause it absorbs the 9pool speed with slightly better macro. 12pool 11 gas is fine too but you might need a sunk. 9pool speed is better not because of what you spend but rather what you force them to do. What do you force them to do if they block their ramp? Is it crucial to break ramp?
Nope. They shouldnt be able to block ramp? If they do they sacrificed a lot to get early lings.. so you win with quick lair.
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On February 15 2008 04:57 zulu_nation8 wrote:
you should've went for hive tech and gotten plague before pushing out, when toss goes for a dt + goon combo, you need to plague the dts to weaken them and to make them visible, you don't want to waste your overlords to goons, plague the goons too before attacking them with mutalisks. After a two gate rush the toss tech will be delayed severely, if you see any evidence of a dt build immediately lay down a queens nest -> hive-> defiler mound, dts are deadly especially when they're invisible. hope that helped
lol
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[ZvZ]
I am a little confused. How would you use your 9pool speed build vs a 12pool. If the 12pool player plays correctly, he should have you out macroed and lair approximately when you have it?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 16:36 Shado. wrote:
[ZvZ]
I am a little confused. How would you use your 9pool speed build vs a 12pool. If the 12pool player plays correctly, he should have you out macroed and lair approximately when you have it?
I feel comfortable going 12 pool vs a 9pooler that is true. But I think if the map permits it (bluestorm) 9poolspeed is fast enough to apply necessary pressure for the 9pooler to being advantaged. If its a longer map like tau cross or longinus 12 pool is surely more likely to advantage the player. That being said 9pool speed requires a lot of things that go outside the bo itself meaning you need to know the mentality/feel of this bo in order to be successful with it. I am of the mind that NO bo straight turns a 9pool speed bo if you play it right. That kind of stuff I can never tell you how to think/react.. just practice it with my tips in mind and hopefully it will catch on.
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[ZvP]
Okay im trying to learn zerg, so forgive me if this seems like a noob question. How do you secure a third gas? Every game i play usually ends up with lings/hydras blocking my nat choke and a few lings/hydras defending my third gas. Suddenly the huge p army shows up and eliminates the base. Can you give me tips for holding onto the third gas?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 16 2008 12:12 Fangster wrote:
[ZvP]
Okay im trying to learn zerg, so forgive me if this seems like a noob question. How do you secure a third gas? Every game i play usually ends up with lings/hydras blocking my nat choke and a few lings/hydras defending my third gas. Suddenly the huge p army shows up and eliminates the base. Can you give me tips for holding onto the third gas?
Need a mobile army.. not small factions of armies defending. Make a spore and a sunk for DT harrass or if that third gas is at another main's natural make as much defense as you deem necessary.
Watch the replays on this website and read the other portions of the strategy guide. The advice you seek is very general and situational. I cannot give a blanket answer to securing a 3rd gas in all zvp's.
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In ZvZ 12 pool, when and where should i place my second hatch? Should I build it before getting gas and lings? or after Lair?
Sometimes I see Z building it after spire, sometimes before lings, sometimes during lair...
ty very much your replay pack is awesome and very helpful
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
situational.
IF they are 2 hatching you want to make the spire first to pressure their tech and force them to lose or make spore. If they are doing same bo you need to gauge lings (their's as well) and decide if you can defend from lings.. if you can (economy is strong enough) go ahead and expand. Its a feel thing regardless though.. you kinda have to learnt he timing and know what in hatch or expand hatch entails.
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[ZvZ]
what is so called overlord trick?
[ZvP]
when ,if at all, is it ever viable to try and rush to hive tech? i tried once, but got completely owned.
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i think overlord trick is talking about mutalisk+ol to make them stack
so the person going scourge cant clone his scourge well to kill the mutas
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On August 24 2008 18:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i think overlord trick is talking about mutalisk+ol to make them stack
so the person going scourge cant clone his scourge well to kill the mutas
oh.
that ovie trick. got it.
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or grouping overlord with larva and hitting stop
then they wiggle :O
o
r
clumping overlords at potential mass muta fights, overlords take a lotta bounces n stuff , although i usually just spread them out all OMG FREE OVIE LIKE ; and just patiently wait for the zerg to take the bait
then i a-move all over him
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Yea, I misunderstood for a second too. He means muta stacking
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Light on specific builds but a good overview for new players. Good work
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i dont think that 12 hatch is so ballsy b/c if they c the 12 hathc they go nexus b4 cannons alowing you to take another expo
i also have a question, when i watch people like mondragon, savior, july, jaedong, they are winning zvp with hydra/lurk... i cant hope to do this, i lose all the time and i think it is b/c i lack the nessecary micro for this and most likely i have a smaller army, so my question is how do they do this, all i can do is muta/ling and lurker/ling and then get my ultras, i want to learn how to play how the pros do, so what can i do, do i w8 till i a higher rank so i have more game sense and skill or what?
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On August 24 2008 18:11 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2008 18:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i think overlord trick is talking about mutalisk+ol to make them stack
so the person going scourge cant clone his scourge well to kill the mutas oh. that ovie trick. got it.
or it might be the larva trick, take ur larva and oiv and hit "S" key all larva seleted will move to the left side of the hatch
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or maybe its extractor trick and he mistaken it for ovy?
at 9 drones make extractor to free up supply and then make a drone. cancel the extractor after making the drone and your at 10/9.
i think he just meant the muta stack with ovy though. (you can also use a burrowed ling to stack mutas)
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On October 14 2008 06:25 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
or maybe its extractor trick and he mistaken it for ovy?
at 9 drones make extractor to free up supply and then make a drone. cancel the extractor after making the drone and your at 10/9.
i think he just meant the muta stack with ovy though. (you can also use a burrowed ling to stack mutas)
... This is a joke right? Incontrol does not make mistakes.
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On October 14 2008 11:05 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 06:25 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
or maybe its extractor trick and he mistaken it for ovy?
at 9 drones make extractor to free up supply and then make a drone. cancel the extractor after making the drone and your at 10/9.
i think he just meant the muta stack with ovy though. (you can also use a burrowed ling to stack mutas) ... This is a joke right? Incontrol does not make mistakes.
what?
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As I said earlier ZvZ is in its most aggressive evolution yet. With the overlord trick scourge are relatively useless (in the 3 hatch scourge/ling form). They are however, not obsolete.
In this context, it is referring to the ability to stack mutalisks (making mutalisks easier to micro, hence making scourge more obsolete).
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On October 14 2008 11:05 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 06:25 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
or maybe its extractor trick and he mistaken it for ovy?
at 9 drones make extractor to free up supply and then make a drone. cancel the extractor after making the drone and your at 10/9.
i think he just meant the muta stack with ovy though. (you can also use a burrowed ling to stack mutas) ... This is a joke right? Incontrol does not make mistakes.
On October 14 2008 14:21 nevake wrote:Show nested quote +As I said earlier ZvZ is in its most aggressive evolution yet. With the overlord trick scourge are relatively useless (in the 3 hatch scourge/ling form). They are however, not obsolete. In this context, it is referring to the ability to stack mutalisks (making mutalisks easier to micro, hence making scourge more obsolete).
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On August 24 2008 17:56 goldenkrnboi wrote:
[ZvZ]
what is so called overlord trick?
[ZvP]
when ,if at all, is it ever viable to try and rush to hive tech? i tried once, but got completely owned.
i wasn't arguing with inc..
but whatever
and i happend to overlook this post
On August 24 2008 18:11 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2008 18:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i think overlord trick is talking about mutalisk+ol to make them stack
so the person going scourge cant clone his scourge well to kill the mutas oh. that ovie trick. got it.
he already got his answer
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ok i just try to follow ur suggestion incontrol and going 9 pool vs z@destination.. he did 12 pool and when i arrive with my 6 ling he ha dalredy a sunken and lair going...
My question is:
What i have to do? Insist with mass ling or try to catch he on lair?
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On July 15 2009 17:59 LuDwig- wrote:
ok i just try to follow ur suggestion incontrol and going 9 pool vs z@destination.. he did 12 pool and when i arrive with my 6 ling he ha dalredy a sunken and lair going...
My question is:
What i have to do? Insist with mass ling or try to catch he on lair?
well you will have a ling # advantage until he gets his second hatch up, so you should do your best to abuse that. Also, with a 9 pool speed, you SHOULD have your lair going faster than him. If he has a sunken, set up a sexi ling conclave at the bottom of his ramp once you can no longer harass effectively (when his production picks up), and you can use the block to try and hold his lings till mutas come.
I don't know what admins think of the bump...
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Early zergling aggressive builds are really bad on Destination in ZvZ due to the super long rush distance + guaranteed scouting + ramp.
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i prefer bump this thread than open a new one..
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I dont think a lot of cheesy openings work very well on destination as long as you scout well.
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we really need more protoss guides 
I have been getting owned at C level by zergs in most maps, including ones that favors protoss.
But maps like Destination, Neo Medusa, and Colosseum were just a nightmare for me.
To my dismay, most streamers are zergs users as well lol. Shauni and Eg.Louder are very so rarely online, and Oystein just switched from Random to Zerg too.
I know even a cave man is supposed to be able to do it, but... T_T
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On July 16 2009 03:17 Leath wrote:we really need more protoss guides I have been getting owned at C level by zergs in most maps, including ones that favors protoss. But maps like Destination, Neo Medusa, and Colosseum were just a nightmare for me. To my dismay, most streamers are zergs users as well lol. Shauni and Eg.Louder are very so rarely online, and Oystein just switched from Random to Zerg too. I know even a cave man is supposed to be able to do it, but... T_T
i am protoss, i agree with you
i think Zerg race is dominating right now in low level (C- C C+ B-) play i mean
if tow players with the same Rank, for example; an C ranked Zerg vs a C ranked Toss, The one with Zerg will win much more easy, 5hatch Hydra is Very easy to use and an Easy BO to win
i always thought that at the same lvl in PvZ, Zerg has more chance of winning
Zergs can make many mistakes and even stay in the game...
lol maybe Oystein is having a lot of troubles beating Zerg lol
my 2 cent
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edit: Just noticed this was thread necro
I'm curious to your thoughts about overpool>2hat lurk drop vs FE toss
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Thanks for the guide!
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on countering Sair/Reaver Toss, something that spells trouble for Zerg at pro level, but I played vs D and C ranked people that execute it pretty well also. On large, complicated maps it's quite difficult, especially if they focus more on expanding again rather then being overly offensive. Only thing I found useful is going basically all in hydra and try to get a good timing attack, preferably before he gets too many reavers, and definately before disruption web (it's mostly gg at that point unless you have double his base count).
Also thing that gives me trouble is terran mech. Other then the mindgame of hydra>goliaths>mutas>tanks>hydra and realizing i need to expand very aggressively I don't have a clue really. The problem is when the terran camps doing this, even with just his main and nat, he can produce a killer army of goliaths, tanks (and science vessels later on) that just owns anything muta/hydra. Good terrans will throw in the dirt cheap vultures just to be annyoing with mines too. Dark swarm feels nigh on useless, the tanks just rape the hydras like a joke. If he takes 3 gas ... and in some maps he can defend his third pretty well, much better then other races like desti or colo with properly cliffed siege tanks So it's hard to deny him that at times. One of the biggest problems is how quickly my mutas become obsolete once he gets a few science vessels forcing me to fight an uphill battle versus siege tanks.
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If he takes 3 gas ... and in some maps he can defend his third pretty well, much better then other races like desti or colo with properly cliffed siege tanks
I never have a problem on Desti. Mech terran armies are greater than the sum of their parts when they get big. If he waits until he gets big before he takes his third, then he was on 2 bases for much too long and you can roll him with your 5 base+ economy. If he takes his third when his army is of a decent size, then you just need to keep suiciding units at him to keep him from getting big, expoing while you do this, and eventually you'll run over him since he can't reinforce as quickly as you can.
Against Science Vessels, just don't stack your mutalisks and you should be able to separate/kill the irradiated mutalisk quickly enough.
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Pretty nice guide. I think it helped me to clear myself out few things about ZvZ, also few about ZvT. However I don't agree that in ZvP you should 12pool instead of 12 hatch. Some of the reasons: If you are focusing on macro game and taking your 3rd base asap, then 12 hatch is more economical build. However, with 12 pool you get earlier lings, but if your opponent plays without mistake he should have cannons/probes in the right position to defend a run by. What about scouting, with 12 pool probe will still scout your base as in 12 hatch, you cant prevent first scout coming. Also in 12 pool the hatch is later, and all modern protoss players try to delay your expansion as long as possible. If he gets a lot of hits on you, you will have to change drone, at that will take even more, and if he chases drone with low health you have to pull some drones of the mineral line for a few seconds, to defend it. All this adds up and may even put you behind economical. What about cannon rushes, it's pretty easy to defend, if he only has 1 or 2 probes, all you need to do is pull of 3-4 drones to keep delaying his cannons, and when the lings come out and finish the deal, he will have around 200 mineral lost, possible a 1 or even 2 probes lost and a pylon lost. All you have to do is to keep your overlord over your natural, and if he builds a pylon in place where the pylon placement itself isn't causing any harass, you know the cannon rush is coming, and you can deal with it easier than you could imagine. So my point is: cannon rush is not an excuse to go 12 pool instead of 12 hatch. THE only benefit you get from 12 pool, if that if you scouted the wrong direction with your overlord, with 12 pool you guarantee safety against 2 gate 1st zealot. So generally 12 pool is safer build from 2 gate rush, but knowing the popularity of protoss fast expanding these days, 12 pool is worst than 12 hatch in this MU. However, if you already got 12 drones, and you scouted that he's going 2 gate, there's nothing wrong going pool first, as you will have economical advantage anyway. Well that's all I wanted to say. Overal a great guide :}.
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One pvz strat that I as a z player have a lot of trouble against and I've played and lost to several times is when p goes for a mass goon several zealot early army with temps later, pushing towards you with a lot of goons when you have an inferior army of hydra ling. Whats the counter to a mass goon pvz timed push? Should I try to sunken up a lot, go for all lings early with speed, or mass hydra?
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On August 09 2009 02:29 Newguy wrote:
One pvz strat that I as a z player have a lot of trouble against and I've played and lost to several times is when p goes for a mass goon several zealot early army with temps later, pushing towards you with a lot of goons when you have an inferior army of hydra ling. Whats the counter to a mass goon pvz timed push? Should I try to sunken up a lot, go for all lings early with speed, or mass hydra?
Mass goon/ht is mostly a response to mass hydra. In this case you should use speedlings and +1/ +2 upgrades (since you probably already have 2/2 on hydra due to 5 hatch hydra strat.). While his goon count isn't very big, you can snipe high templars with mutas, that delays his push. while you do this accumulate massive army of hydra/ling with balance 2:5 (eg.: 18 hydras and 45 lings). If he engages you, move your army into sides, since storms most likely will be casted on the center. then attack with spread hydras and surround with lings. The wise toss will try to retreat, keep blocking his back with lings, and kill as many units as you can. If he doesn't engage you, tech to hive, add 3rd evo chamber, begin +1 spire carapace and do few rounds of drones. Keep an eye on his army movements, try to snipe his lone high templars, since his army might be to big to fly over, also try to spot his expansions. Also it's a good time for you to expand. When hive tech finishes get ultra den, +1 on everything, crackling upgrade, ultra shields, then speed. Now this is important part, try to scout what your oponent is doing. He will most likely to switch to zealot/archon, as his dragoon army got raped. However, sometimes toss goes for mass DT/Sair late game, or mass DT/Reaver. They do so if they realize you will go pure ultra/ling. If you fail to find out, but he hasn't got a lot of units, 2 spores and 3-4 sunkens on every base. Don't forget the main, as this where some protoss will most likely to go, depends if you built your all tech in the main base. If you are sure hes going Sair/something, mix in some hydras and get DEVOUVERS. Devouvers are under estimated by many players, they are such a great unit. Devouver reduces unit's attack cooldown so much, that the corsair will shoot like a scout. Also it increases the damage done to them, every shoot, +1 damage done. Now imagine hydras doing 22 damage to corsairs. that's insane. Also, how strange it could seem, mutas are also pretty good against sair, but let devouvers curse them first. However, you asked counter to goon/ht, so here it is, if you don't want to read my whole post: 2:5 Hydra/lings and some Mutas to snipe hts with ling micro does amazing things against goon/ht. That's all for now  .
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On July 16 2009 03:44 LuisMl8 wrote:
i am protoss, i agree with you
i think Zerg race is dominating right now in low level (C- C C+ B-) play i mean
if tow players with the same Rank, for example; an C ranked Zerg vs a C ranked Toss, The one with Zerg will win much more easy, 5hatch Hydra is Very easy to use and an Easy BO to win
i always thought that at the same lvl in PvZ, Zerg has more chance of winning
Zergs can make many mistakes and even stay in the game...
lol maybe Oystein is having a lot of troubles beating Zerg lol
my 2 cent
Zerg going 5 hatch hydra has alot of macro and other stuff to do, so few well casted storms can determine the game. Also 5 hatch hydra has defenseless early/mid game, with only like 12 lings and 1 sunken at 3rd expo. Try to use that. send your ~7 defending zealots to get the sunken, when the lings comes to help it will already might be to late. The good thing is that if you succeed you will take out expansion. Even if you wont take the expansion out, he will be forced to start producing hydras earlier. Many zergs will over-react, they will spawn like 20-30 hydras, as they already felt the threat. However, good zergs will have their overlords and burrowed zerglings in sight to see incoming attacks, so if you see hes with 12 lings around the sunken is already waiting for you, GO STRAIGHT FOR THE MAIN, many protoss players are afraid of that, but I would really advice you to do that. He will most likely wont have a sunken, take as many drones as you can and gas. If he does have a sunken, go straight for the main (dont kill the sunken, because the zerglings are already coming for you from behind). When you are in his main you got few things to consider. If you feel you can take his spire out, DO IT. You might also require some micro against zerglings for that. Also, hydras should be poping out now. If you kill his spire, hes in a big trouble. The reason I'm telling to go for the spire, because hydra den rebuilds much much faster than spire or pool. Don't go for the pool either, because he has easy survive without pool for some time, by massing hydras. But if you get his spire out, he wont be able to produce any mutas to harass you/snipe ht's, he wont be able to produce any scourges to patrol from ht/reaver drops. Use this to your advantage. If you cant pressure him early, expand, defend and keep dt in every possible place for him to expand (3 dt's won't make a difference in your game, but it really pisses of zerg). When he moves with overlord and some hydras to finally kill the dt, feel free to attack. This may be critical for zerg, hes focused to find and kill that dt, since he can kill incoming drones for a transfer, or kill expansion while its morphing. Just move out with your whole army, and cast storms that they would be half on mutas and half behind them. This just ruins the whole zerg army, since when you cast storms behind him, and he sees "red flares" on the minimap, he will 1 click 2 click 3 click 4 click 5 click on his natural/nearest base, to retreat, absorb the attack and buy some more time to mass up. If you do all this correctly, his whole army will be so f**ked up that you should easy run over him and take the game. Also you can attack 2 fronts in same time, because it gets really difficult to dodge storms, almost impossible. Also you can be try to be creative, make a surprise, use d. web with few sair, mix in your army few dt's, drop some dt's in one of his expansions and kill the drones. Remember, drone kills doesnt alarm zerg on minimap, so many wont notice that, especially when you cant see dt's on the minimap. So remember, if you can't engage his army directly, use his every move to his disadvantage, accumulate bigger army and run over him. That basiclly all, sorry for the long post, sorry for the cap's in some places, sorry for some gramatical mistakes I might made, sorry for the f word and sorry for double post ^^. I hope I helped you or some other protoss who read this. That's all. GL.
~ProoM
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6357/106bx3s.jpg)
