EPTI still think with a spore buff against muta wont be enough and it will still be only muta ling vs muta ling but it doesnt hurt to try, literally nothing to lose.
Change BW ZvZ Balance - Page 3
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
I still think with a spore buff against muta wont be enough and it will still be only muta ling vs muta ling but it doesnt hurt to try, literally nothing to lose. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
In my opinion, the only thing worth experimenting with would be something akin to overlords starting with their speed upgrade in zvz, or at least being faster. I think it could potentially lead to more even/balanced early/mid game situations, where players might experiment with things like hydra switches and/or hive tech -- this could produce more games where the viewers at least get to see devours and perhaps defilers, and with those perhaps hydras and lurkers. I'm also sure there are some downsides to this idea that I haven't fully considered, and maybe it's a terrible idea :> | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
On March 31 2022 20:44 sertas wrote: I like the hydra change better but if it that change is impossible why not try the spore change its worth a shot. I still think with a spore buff against muta wont be enough and it will still be only muta ling vs muta ling but it doesnt hurt to try, literally nothing to lose. Precisely. And there is no reason to think that organic splash cannot be tweaked to still allow for mutas, also as a late game switch, but at the same time also for hydras. Obviously, if it's too much, mutas will no longer work because mass hydra IS normally stronger. The issue with mutas is how easily they destroy drones even with spore defence - hence, the splash to manage this. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
Go play Fatest!!! More over you can literally change attack typ in the editor> if you have a map specially for a certain match up ZvZ Polypoid or whatever, you dont need to care about other match ups. Either way just create/ have the map and there will be no patching necessary... As allways map creator balance the game. If people actually care that much about a more diverse and supposed less boring zvz match up, that is. | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
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GGmano
103 Posts
On April 12 2022 14:09 darktreb wrote: Making a change that only affects ZvZ (e.g. Spores or Hydras doing bonus damage to biological air units) literally would have zero effect on balance. and youre experience with balance is? | ||
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iopq
United States1149 Posts
It's ZvZ, it's always "balanced" because it's the same race | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
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Jealous
10360 Posts
However, if I were to propose a solution that doesn't affect unit stats, it would be to either have maps that are specifically for ZvZ or ones where there is a trigger that activated when both players are Zerg. The easiest solution I could come up with for indirectly nerfing Mutalisks would be to have permanent, neutral storms behind mineral lines. That way, no Mutalisk harass. You could even make a ring of storms around the main/nat with one exit from the nat, so no air units can cross into those bases without taking damage. Another idea that has already been played around with on some unfortunate maps like Demon's Forest is cover. Why not place trees all over the main/nat so Mutas have a lower hit chance? Either way, these are just topics that I haven't seen brought up, and they are admittedly outlandish. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but this could be one way to go about it. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
This is already done for TvTs anyway, where it matters where you can siege. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
The spore dmg idea is still the best. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 14 2022 13:57 Jealous wrote: Disclaimer: I think changing anything about BW balance is a dumb idea. However, if I were to propose a solution that doesn't affect unit stats, it would be to either have maps that are specifically for ZvZ or ones where there is a trigger that activated when both players are Zerg. The easiest solution I could come up with for indirectly nerfing Mutalisks would be to have permanent, neutral storms behind mineral lines. That way, no Mutalisk harass. You could even make a ring of storms around the main/nat with one exit from the nat, so no air units can cross into those bases without taking damage. Another idea that has already been played around with on some unfortunate maps like Demon's Forest is cover. Why not place trees all over the main/nat so Mutas have a lower hit chance? Either way, these are just topics that I haven't seen brought up, and they are admittedly outlandish. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but this could be one way to go about it. Cool ideas. I like the idea of maps that are designed for mirror matchups. (Also I suggested it here ages ago: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/93645-special-mirror-maps-in-individual-leagues ) You can do a lot of experimental stuff with maps if you know they'll only be played in mirrors. Symmetry is the only balance you need and weird stuff is allowed. Why not throw in a neutral CC for each player, for instance. Infested Terrans in ZvZ! That said, I don't think the spore damage splash idea is so crazy. I agree with you on changes that might affect balance between races. That would be bad. But a midgame upgrade that gives spores a bit of splash could be perfect. It would leave early game ZvZ just as sharp-edged as it already is, but also allow a realistic pathway into a ZvZ ground-based late game. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
If you want spores to have splash they should come with splash already. Also NO OTHER building have upgrades to it, so neither should Zerg. It would make it feel like ure playing SC2 where you can upgrade CC to fit 8 units and fly away with a cannon ontop. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
It is not entirely true that no building has an upgrade. Creep colonies are morphed into sunkens and spores. Why not make spores morph into an advanced version? However, this kind of feel superfluous to me and require more effort to allow also for ground based ZvZ than splash by default, but sure, why not. | ||
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aokces
United States309 Posts
Just make some friends, ask them to play ZvZ no spire/muta pre-Hive, or no spire at all. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3703 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On March 25 2022 01:53 WGT-Baal wrote: you can surely build that change into a UMS? (i m not super familiar with how that works) and then have a tournament on it or a showmatch and see how it goes. It d be fun No, you can't really do this in a ums. You could buff the hydralisk in general easily, but no, you can't just target one interaction. My opinion on this matter is that ZvZ is pretty much always going to be a mess, because even if we could balance out the muta/hydralisk, the defiler really doesn't have a counter in this matchup. Now sure, some people might prefer getting to that point, but I guarantee you mass plagues/dark swam is not terribly interesting after the first couple times it happens. In otherwords, mirror matchups always suck. | ||
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