EPTChange BW ZvZ Balance - Page 4
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EndingLife
United States1600 Posts
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iopq
United States1076 Posts
On April 14 2022 13:57 Jealous wrote: Disclaimer: I think changing anything about BW balance is a dumb idea. However, if I were to propose a solution that doesn't affect unit stats, it would be to either have maps that are specifically for ZvZ or ones where there is a trigger that activated when both players are Zerg. The easiest solution I could come up with for indirectly nerfing Mutalisks would be to have permanent, neutral storms behind mineral lines. That way, no Mutalisk harass. You could even make a ring of storms around the main/nat with one exit from the nat, so no air units can cross into those bases without taking damage. Another idea that has already been played around with on some unfortunate maps like Demon's Forest is cover. Why not place trees all over the main/nat so Mutas have a lower hit chance? Either way, these are just topics that I haven't seen brought up, and they are admittedly outlandish. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but this could be one way to go about it. Because Zergs rely on strong muta timings to keep up with Terran in upgrades/timings/etc. You're changing the map to favor Terran | ||
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iopq
United States1076 Posts
On April 19 2022 11:47 ejac wrote: No, you can't really do this in a ums. You could buff the hydralisk in general easily, but no, you can't just target one interaction. My opinion on this matter is that ZvZ is pretty much always going to be a mess, because even if we could balance out the muta/hydralisk, the defiler really doesn't have a counter in this matchup. Now sure, some people might prefer getting to that point, but I guarantee you mass plagues/dark swam is not terribly interesting after the first couple times it happens. In otherwords, mirror matchups always suck. https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/86418572?change_second=4147 tell me this game isn't more interesting than 90% of ZvZ games you've ever seen | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On April 19 2022 12:43 iopq wrote: https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/86418572?change_second=4147 tell me this game isn't more interesting than 90% of ZvZ games you've ever seen Lol, it's besides the point. Yes, it is more exciting than 90% of ZvZs for now and it would continue to be so while people experimented. I do believe though that given not very much practice that this matchup would once again be "solved", because a unit doesn't have a counter, just like the mutalisk now. Having a game devolve into not being able to attack anything because every unit on the map has 1hp is not fun in the long term. Keep in mind that lurkers under dark swarm are essentially invincible and 1 shot everything. This is going to be like tvt, but where it's actually impossible to engage rather than just difficult. | ||
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iopq
United States1076 Posts
On April 19 2022 12:51 ejac wrote: Lol, it's besides the point. Yes, it is more exciting than 90% of ZvZs for now and it would continue to be so while people experimented. I do believe though that given not very much practice that this matchup would once again be "solved", because a unit doesn't have a counter, just like the mutalisk now. Having a game devolve into not being able to attack anything because every unit on the map has 1hp is not fun in the long term. Keep in mind that lurkers under dark swarm are essentially invincible and 1 shot everything. This is going to be like tvt, but where it's actually impossible to engage rather than just difficult. you're forgetting Zerg has broodling, so fortified positions can be broken by broodling unless you can't click on the lurkers because they are covered by overlords - but you CAN plague the overlords and just kill them with one shot | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On April 19 2022 13:27 iopq wrote: you're forgetting Zerg has broodling, so fortified positions can be broken by broodling unless you can't click on the lurkers because they are covered by overlords - but you CAN plague the overlords and just kill them with one shot Lol... I'm not forgetting broodlings. Your answer to the unlimited energy defiler is the 150 energy queen. Good luck. At best queens are pest control, not a counter. | ||
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iopq
United States1076 Posts
On April 19 2022 13:30 ejac wrote: Lol... I'm not forgetting broodlings. Your answer to the unlimited energy defiler is the 150 energy queen. Good luck. At best queens are pest control, not a counter. defilers have no answer to the queen other than hiding in overlords or under them since they can't outrange them, can't shoot up or chase them what are you going to do with your 150 energy defiler against a ranged caster that can instantly kill you by clicking on you? Run into the OTHER Zerg's lurkers? try to kill them with air units that have 1 HP? I'm telling you what to do in a split map situation. The person with queen/defiler beats the person without queens because there's no way to attack into swarmed lurkers you can also ledge guardian if there's enough space not to get plagued and instantly killed (defilers can't reach the sieging position) | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
If you face a zerg that sieges a position with lurkers you have to use either air or drops. You would not buy 12+ queens to deal with this, thats just silly. Maybe even let him siege THAT position and go attack another location. Defiler is without a doubt the best unit zerg has. The ability to make a whole army totaling 50 HP is insanely good. Queen has its uses but not so much in ZvZ, maybe vs Ultras if you need quick kills but still Defiler would rock da boat even here. Hitting 6 Ultras worth 300 DMG each is 1800 DMG compared to 400 DMG (one Ultra). And the ability to spam plague every 5 seconds. Unbeatable value. So any fight in ZvZ would have to include Defiler if you want a definitive win vs a non-Defiler user. If both use Defiler it would easily be the best observer experience. Btw i enjoyed the game you linked. Really cool to see Defiler in ZvZ. Soma zerg is best zerg  If i should criticize on Soma game it would be that he should definitely buy 'Burrow' for Defiler when he want it in the middle of the map. It would have saved quite a few Defilers from dying. Without it, Defiler is always a sitting duck. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia434 Posts
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iopq
United States1076 Posts
On April 19 2022 21:06 MeSaber wrote: iopq u on drugs? Defiler plague range is 9 and Guardian attack range is 8. Also you dont have to hit the unit spot on so its more than 9. If you face a zerg that sieges a position with lurkers you have to use either air or drops. You would not buy 12+ queens to deal with this, thats just silly. Maybe even let him siege THAT position and go attack another location. I had a hive game where the last mining base of the opponent is a defiler lurker guardian devourer spore location. I did not break it because it only had one tiny ramp up it. Doesn't matter if there's no other locations, I could kill the whole map and it wouldn't win it for me. He had a ton of overlords over his lurkers so they weren't targetable. The only solution is to swarm up the ramp with ultras that I didn't have or upgrade. Anyway, I would prefer defiler fests over just mass muta. | ||
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