EPTChange BW ZvZ Balance - Page 2
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
zvz hydra lurk vs hydra lurk every game would be even more boring than muta ling vs muta ling every game | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On March 25 2022 09:16 endy wrote: zvz hydra lurk vs hydra lurk every game would be even more boring than muta ling vs muta ling every game Why? It seems like apples and oranges to me. And when all you've got is apples, having some oranges for variety doesn't sound so bad. In other words, a ZvZ tour with Spires somehow nerfed might be fun to watch. If you need a reason other than variety, consider that Lurkers create the possibility of favorable defensive positions. Such positions are the reason why TvT ends up occupying the whole map. A ZvZ in which more bases were involved would end up with Hive tech, Defilers, Nydus ambushes, and who knows what else. That strategy space is mostly unexplored. For all we know, ZvZ with nerfed Spires is the best mirror match in BW and we're all just missing out. I mean, imagine a matchup that sometimes turns out like ZvZ does (scrappy micro fights for six minutes and it's over) and other times ends up like TvT (six bases vs six bases, all tech explored, stuff exploding everywhere). That could be what you'd get if hydras and mutas were closely matched in ZvZ. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
On March 25 2022 12:57 Djabanete wrote: Why? It seems like apples and oranges to me. And when all you've got is apples, having some oranges for variety doesn't sound so bad. In other words, a ZvZ tour with Spires somehow nerfed might be fun to watch. If you need a reason other than variety, consider that Lurkers create the possibility of favorable defensive positions. Such positions are the reason why TvT ends up occupying the whole map. A ZvZ in which more bases were involved would end up with Hive tech, Defilers, Nydus ambushes, and who knows what else. That strategy space is mostly unexplored. For all we know, ZvZ with nerfed Spires is the best mirror match in BW and we're all just missing out. I mean, imagine a matchup that sometimes turns out like ZvZ does (scrappy micro fights for six minutes and it's over) and other times ends up like TvT (six bases vs six bases, all tech explored, stuff exploding everywhere). That could be what you'd get if hydras and mutas were closely matched in ZvZ. This. Hydra Lurker will not end up like Muta Ling because you can do defensive wonders with Lurkers and clever mapmaking. ZvZ is in a horrid state since forever. No one is asking for a change affecting any other matchup, only to shake up the mirror and make it finally viewable. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
And changing hydra damage to normal would probally do the same stuff and is actually relativly easy in the Map editor. Though either | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
On March 23 2022 19:03 sertas wrote: I don't even play the game I just like watching it, and ZvZ is the most stale matchup in the universe to watch. I don't get why we have to be stuck with muta ling for all eternity just because it happened to turn out that way 20 years ago. combining hydras with lurkers and swarm must surely be the direct counter to muta zerglings.. cover you mass of hyds with burrowed lurkers underthem with dark swarm, when an attack from muta and zergling comes. the mutalisk wont do any dmg and the zerglings with splash splatter vs the lurkers dmg.. the ling muta has a direct counter surely but maybe its not easy to do and most goes for the easy to control mutalisk and zerglings attack. even hydralisk and lurkers without swarm would be good against this swarm just power it up even more.. theres many other strategies to go against this just having mutalisk and guards. or mutalisk and devourers. Since the zerglings does 0 air dmg the even amount of muta will kill each other and than zerglings and guards left where guards killing the zerglings but the zerglings not killing the guards. placing and timing each attacks means alot and prolly is why most players go with the fastest easy to control(change position) and rebuild attack muta lings.. | ||
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iopq
United States1149 Posts
On March 26 2022 06:18 Leonix wrote: why 40 procent though? And changing hydra damage to normal would probally do the same stuff and is actually relativly easy in the Map editor. Though either then hydra would shred units like corsair and observer which need to survive longer to give Protoss a good chance vs. Zerg that's assuming you meant splitting hydra damage into v. air and v. ground My suggestion is to buff spores because they have very low DPS, lower than turrets (?) - although they already do normal damage, per cost they can't protect Zerg mining at all - building 4 spores (2 per each base) is already 700 minerals which is a gross amount and doesn't actually protect against 5 mutas that well which only cost 500 mineral 500 gas (since they can kill drones all game) it's this cost efficiency that makes playing anything but muta very slow and hard to justify - by the time I set up my hydra push (it takes 10 minutes to get around to actually attacking with upgrades) I've had to face things like guardian rushes and lurker pushes - this is because two spores doesn't cut it when you try to get more drones up, you need to keep building more and more against an aggressive muta user, and you have to build some back at home in case they backstab you and try to go for a base race the way to do this buff would be to give spore colonies irradiation attack - every time a spore colony shoots it casts a 1 second irradiation this will only be more effective against bio air, and especially against stacked bio air | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On March 24 2022 07:47 ProMeTheus112 wrote: imagine a game where you're coinflipping and win 50/50, that game is "balanced" but it also isn't a very interesting strategy game. That's the other meaning of balance beyond winrates that makes the quality of a strategy game, the various options and nuances of these options that you can use at all stages of the game. So ofc when you're playing a race that basically has 2 ground units at tier 1 you've got a balance issue on the matchup when 1 of them doesn't even work lul  Tell about coinflippint to all Jeadong opponents in his golden era when he had 90% zvz winrate for more than a year. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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iopq
United States1149 Posts
On March 28 2022 23:27 Lightswarm wrote: how many people in this thread have actually tried going hydra zvz on a consistent basis? would love to chat with those folks I do it, but spore colonies can't prevent back stabs so I lose a lot to smart muta players I think this is what makes mutas so good, spore colonies have very low DPS for what they cost (overall 175 minerals and a larva) | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On March 28 2022 22:05 ajmbek wrote: Tell about coinflippint to all Jeadong opponents in his golden era when he had 90% zvz winrate for more than a year. only used as an example to illustrate the other meaning of balance in any matchup beyond winrate. imagine zvz is all about microing mutas in packs of 12 and doing micro tricks and you get great at it and you can win most of the time, other players or even that player may still argue they'd want to play more of a strategy game etc. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia484 Posts
On March 28 2022 21:11 iopq wrote: then hydra would shred units like corsair and observer which need to survive longer to give Protoss a good chance vs. Zerg that's assuming you meant splitting hydra damage into v. air and v. ground My suggestion is to buff spores because they have very low DPS, lower than turrets (?) - although they already do normal damage, per cost they can't protect Zerg mining at all - building 4 spores (2 per each base) is already 700 minerals which is a gross amount and doesn't actually protect against 5 mutas that well which only cost 500 mineral 500 gas (since they can kill drones all game) it's this cost efficiency that makes playing anything but muta very slow and hard to justify - by the time I set up my hydra push (it takes 10 minutes to get around to actually attacking with upgrades) I've had to face things like guardian rushes and lurker pushes - this is because two spores doesn't cut it when you try to get more drones up, you need to keep building more and more against an aggressive muta user, and you have to build some back at home in case they backstab you and try to go for a base race the way to do this buff would be to give spore colonies irradiation attack - every time a spore colony shoots it casts a 1 second irradiation this will only be more effective against bio air, and especially against stacked bio air This. Some kind of splash vs organic flyers, visually non-intrusive perhaps. Suddenly, you open the matchup. It doesn't need to mean that ling muta scourge is dead - balancing can still be tuned to make it viable, but to open a possibility for something different, to have something to hope for. E.g. PvP can be super boring and build order based, but it can also be incredible with a long endgame phase (Free v Snow), and the latter is practically not possible in ZvZ. Nature abhors ZvZ finals :D | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
tho its just an idea that dosent sound really bad. I believe the sc bw is not to be changed. but if a change wont damage other balance or making mutas never used etc or wraiths harass bad vs zerg, than this should surely not be done. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
TvT is somewhat bearable because dropships and wraiths are indirect counters to tanks. PvP is bearable because goon masses can melt against reavers, templars, or even speedlot flanks. But there's no natural counter to mutalisks at at T1 or T2 tech level other than mutalisks themselves. Being extremely unrealistic here, but I think morphing overlords to devourers might be the only way expand ZvZ beyond just mutas. | ||
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iopq
United States1149 Posts
On March 30 2022 12:22 imBLIND wrote: Honestly, its just that the iconic unit of each race creates a significant problem in all mirror match ups, and there's really nothing we can do about it. In the context of ZvZ, it's blatantly obvious that the mutalisk is the superior unit to everything in the zerg arsenal. TvT is somewhat bearable because dropships and wraiths are indirect counters to tanks. PvP is bearable because goon masses can melt against reavers, templars, or even speedlot flanks. But there's no natural counter to mutalisks at at T1 or T2 tech level other than mutalisks themselves. Being extremely unrealistic here, but I think morphing overlords to devourers might be the only way expand ZvZ beyond just mutas. The most unbearable in TvT is battlecruiser/vessel vs. battlecruiser/vessel, because nobody wants to waste yamato on turrets/goliaths because the other battlecruisers will use the yamato on your battlecruisers so Artosis just sits on his battlecruisers for agonizing minutes behind turret tank goliath and they end up trading vessels for EMPs and build more vessels doing nothing Mass wraith was better than this I would agree to just a straight up devourer HP buff to 330 to let them survive 4 scourge hits and also be beefy against focus fire/irradiate (it can survive one irradiate, but with very little HP left). Devourers are ONLY used against cloaked wraiths in ledge guardian situations where you already have one overlord. Or may against corsairs in the same situation (but storm kicks guardian ass anyway?). I don't mind increasing the supply to 3 as well, since the HP buff will make them that much stronger. I'm really just concerned with making underutilized units stronger, and devourer is one of the least used units in the game. For Terran it's ghosts (used only for nuke rushes and lockdown of arbiters/shuttles), for Protoss it's scouts (useful when Terran attacks before you have carriers and you need some DPS stat) | ||
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NotoriousSCV
27 Posts
I wondered if map makers couldn't help in some way here without messing with the main matchups. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On March 30 2022 04:30 ProMeTheus112 wrote: only used as an example to illustrate the other meaning of balance in any matchup beyond winrate. imagine zvz is all about microing mutas in packs of 12 and doing micro tricks and you get great at it and you can win most of the time, other players or even that player may still argue they'd want to play more of a strategy game etc. 11, not 12 | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
yes. I didnt edit it after writing cause I thought probably zvz is still about a little bit more than just microing the mutas : P | ||
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Prince_Stranger
Kazakhstan762 Posts
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iopq
United States1149 Posts
On March 30 2022 21:06 NotoriousSCV wrote: Many years ago i floated the Spore Colony splash idea. Maybe +1 range too? Also theres Ensnare which seems a direct counter to muta stacks if you can get to it. I wondered if map makers couldn't help in some way here without messing with the main matchups. I don't want it to affect two port wraith, so I don't want splash per se, I want a biological splash attack since it's a "spore" colony | ||
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