EPTThats all, would only affect ZvZ and hopefully become the best mirror in existence.
Thoughts?
Change BW ZvZ Balance
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
Thats all, would only affect ZvZ and hopefully become the best mirror in existence. Thoughts? | ||
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prosatan
Romania8526 Posts
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TT1
Canada10014 Posts
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
On March 23 2022 05:16 prosatan wrote: I think it should be posted on strategy forum I shouldn't repost right? Can I move this post somehow? | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Also stop posting balance ideas that mimics SC2 style of doing things (which sux), i.e having stuff that works only vs x unit. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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pood
7 Posts
The problem with this is that any balance changes would affect other matchups in an unpredictable way. So I get the idea behind only upgrading hydras against mutalisks specifically, as it would have no effect on other matchups. Unfortunately, there is no code in the game that would allow different damage against specific units, aside from size, and implementing something like this would be non-trivial and as such pretty much a no-go for Blizzard or ShieldBattery. Also on top of this, hydras can already be better than mutalisks in a straight-up fight, it's getting them to the right number being so hard that makes them not viable. And an upgrade to hydralisk damage against mutalisks would not solve that unfortunately. | ||
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
On March 23 2022 14:47 MeSaber wrote: I have an idea, learn to play the game and stop whining about balance on a 24 year old game. Also stop posting balance ideas that mimics SC2 style of doing things (which sux), i.e having stuff that works only vs x unit. I don't even play the game I just like watching it, and ZvZ is the most stale matchup in the universe to watch. I don't get why we have to be stuck with muta ling for all eternity just because it happened to turn out that way 20 years ago. | ||
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...onmYwaY
92 Posts
 Pair your hydralisk with a few devouers and there you go - massive damage. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1767 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
if you watch zvz from before muta exploit discovery (around julyzerg peak i think?) it probably looks a bit different but yeah since then.. it was always muta domination early game though. Tbh I hesitated playing Z or P in 1v1 for a bit and quickly definitely chose P for that reason lal (i think PvP is a lot more interesting or fun than ZvZ) | ||
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1670 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Although ZvZ has its charms, many people find it to be repetitive. In general, spectators don't like mirror matches very much (as can be seen from [a] comments here on TL when a tournament bracket has "too many" mirrors; [b]the fact that series like Ultimate Battle and War of Species entirely avoid mirrors; [c] the hype generated every time ZvZ reaches hive tech). The OP is positing a way to make ZvZ more interesting for viewers. To OP, I'd say that there will never be much support for fundamentally changing the game, although your idea is very clever. Another way to get a similar viewership experience (admittedly not the same) would be to sponsor high-level Zergs to play ZvZ without building Spires. That way, viewers would get a taste of ground-based ZvZ without anyone needing to reprogram the game. Of course, no-Spire ZvZ wouldn't have any ground-to-air combat at all. In theory it might be more interesting if there were ground-to-air combat, so instead of "you can't build a spire", the rule could be "you must destroy X of your own drones before you may build a spire." There must be some value of X for which hydras and mutas are both viable. To be clear, I don't recommend this as a clear upgrade to BW, but rather as a way of letting players experiment with ground zerg in a competitive way, allowing viewers to see what that strategy space is like. | ||
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tankgirl
Canada439 Posts
On March 23 2022 04:48 sertas wrote: I have an idea, give hydralisk metabolic slayer passive ability : deal +40% damage to mutalisk. Thats all, would only affect ZvZ and hopefully become the best mirror in existence. Thoughts? Broodwar existed before you. Broodwar is prior to you and your exquisite sensitivities. You have to bend your knee to it. It does not have to change to meet your predilections. | ||
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tankgirl
Canada439 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3444 Posts
It d be fun | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Load Butter Define a location called "World" as the entire map Condition: [Player A has a Spire in World] AND [Player B has a Drone in World] %%% i.e., check that Player B is Zerg Trigger: [Destroy 3 Drones owned by Player A in World] %%% change the number of drones lost to whatever you want Add the reverse condition also for Player B Bam, you now have Butter but with Hydralisk/Hive ZvZ as the norm. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
Additional hydra damage vs mutas, or splash damage for spores vs organic flying units, would do the trick. And the latter can be incorporated within the existing code and damage model. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
zvz hydra lurk vs hydra lurk every game would be even more boring than muta ling vs muta ling every game | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On March 25 2022 09:16 endy wrote: zvz hydra lurk vs hydra lurk every game would be even more boring than muta ling vs muta ling every game Why? It seems like apples and oranges to me. And when all you've got is apples, having some oranges for variety doesn't sound so bad. In other words, a ZvZ tour with Spires somehow nerfed might be fun to watch. If you need a reason other than variety, consider that Lurkers create the possibility of favorable defensive positions. Such positions are the reason why TvT ends up occupying the whole map. A ZvZ in which more bases were involved would end up with Hive tech, Defilers, Nydus ambushes, and who knows what else. That strategy space is mostly unexplored. For all we know, ZvZ with nerfed Spires is the best mirror match in BW and we're all just missing out. I mean, imagine a matchup that sometimes turns out like ZvZ does (scrappy micro fights for six minutes and it's over) and other times ends up like TvT (six bases vs six bases, all tech explored, stuff exploding everywhere). That could be what you'd get if hydras and mutas were closely matched in ZvZ. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
On March 25 2022 12:57 Djabanete wrote: Why? It seems like apples and oranges to me. And when all you've got is apples, having some oranges for variety doesn't sound so bad. In other words, a ZvZ tour with Spires somehow nerfed might be fun to watch. If you need a reason other than variety, consider that Lurkers create the possibility of favorable defensive positions. Such positions are the reason why TvT ends up occupying the whole map. A ZvZ in which more bases were involved would end up with Hive tech, Defilers, Nydus ambushes, and who knows what else. That strategy space is mostly unexplored. For all we know, ZvZ with nerfed Spires is the best mirror match in BW and we're all just missing out. I mean, imagine a matchup that sometimes turns out like ZvZ does (scrappy micro fights for six minutes and it's over) and other times ends up like TvT (six bases vs six bases, all tech explored, stuff exploding everywhere). That could be what you'd get if hydras and mutas were closely matched in ZvZ. This. Hydra Lurker will not end up like Muta Ling because you can do defensive wonders with Lurkers and clever mapmaking. ZvZ is in a horrid state since forever. No one is asking for a change affecting any other matchup, only to shake up the mirror and make it finally viewable. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
And changing hydra damage to normal would probally do the same stuff and is actually relativly easy in the Map editor. Though either | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
On March 23 2022 19:03 sertas wrote: I don't even play the game I just like watching it, and ZvZ is the most stale matchup in the universe to watch. I don't get why we have to be stuck with muta ling for all eternity just because it happened to turn out that way 20 years ago. combining hydras with lurkers and swarm must surely be the direct counter to muta zerglings.. cover you mass of hyds with burrowed lurkers underthem with dark swarm, when an attack from muta and zergling comes. the mutalisk wont do any dmg and the zerglings with splash splatter vs the lurkers dmg.. the ling muta has a direct counter surely but maybe its not easy to do and most goes for the easy to control mutalisk and zerglings attack. even hydralisk and lurkers without swarm would be good against this swarm just power it up even more.. theres many other strategies to go against this just having mutalisk and guards. or mutalisk and devourers. Since the zerglings does 0 air dmg the even amount of muta will kill each other and than zerglings and guards left where guards killing the zerglings but the zerglings not killing the guards. placing and timing each attacks means alot and prolly is why most players go with the fastest easy to control(change position) and rebuild attack muta lings.. | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On March 26 2022 06:18 Leonix wrote: why 40 procent though? And changing hydra damage to normal would probally do the same stuff and is actually relativly easy in the Map editor. Though either then hydra would shred units like corsair and observer which need to survive longer to give Protoss a good chance vs. Zerg that's assuming you meant splitting hydra damage into v. air and v. ground My suggestion is to buff spores because they have very low DPS, lower than turrets (?) - although they already do normal damage, per cost they can't protect Zerg mining at all - building 4 spores (2 per each base) is already 700 minerals which is a gross amount and doesn't actually protect against 5 mutas that well which only cost 500 mineral 500 gas (since they can kill drones all game) it's this cost efficiency that makes playing anything but muta very slow and hard to justify - by the time I set up my hydra push (it takes 10 minutes to get around to actually attacking with upgrades) I've had to face things like guardian rushes and lurker pushes - this is because two spores doesn't cut it when you try to get more drones up, you need to keep building more and more against an aggressive muta user, and you have to build some back at home in case they backstab you and try to go for a base race the way to do this buff would be to give spore colonies irradiation attack - every time a spore colony shoots it casts a 1 second irradiation this will only be more effective against bio air, and especially against stacked bio air | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On March 24 2022 07:47 ProMeTheus112 wrote: imagine a game where you're coinflipping and win 50/50, that game is "balanced" but it also isn't a very interesting strategy game. That's the other meaning of balance beyond winrates that makes the quality of a strategy game, the various options and nuances of these options that you can use at all stages of the game. So ofc when you're playing a race that basically has 2 ground units at tier 1 you've got a balance issue on the matchup when 1 of them doesn't even work lul Tell about coinflippint to all Jeadong opponents in his golden era when he had 90% zvz winrate for more than a year. | ||
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On March 28 2022 23:27 Lightswarm wrote: how many people in this thread have actually tried going hydra zvz on a consistent basis? would love to chat with those folks I do it, but spore colonies can't prevent back stabs so I lose a lot to smart muta players I think this is what makes mutas so good, spore colonies have very low DPS for what they cost (overall 175 minerals and a larva) | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On March 28 2022 22:05 ajmbek wrote: Tell about coinflippint to all Jeadong opponents in his golden era when he had 90% zvz winrate for more than a year. only used as an example to illustrate the other meaning of balance in any matchup beyond winrate. imagine zvz is all about microing mutas in packs of 12 and doing micro tricks and you get great at it and you can win most of the time, other players or even that player may still argue they'd want to play more of a strategy game etc. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
On March 28 2022 21:11 iopq wrote: then hydra would shred units like corsair and observer which need to survive longer to give Protoss a good chance vs. Zerg that's assuming you meant splitting hydra damage into v. air and v. ground My suggestion is to buff spores because they have very low DPS, lower than turrets (?) - although they already do normal damage, per cost they can't protect Zerg mining at all - building 4 spores (2 per each base) is already 700 minerals which is a gross amount and doesn't actually protect against 5 mutas that well which only cost 500 mineral 500 gas (since they can kill drones all game) it's this cost efficiency that makes playing anything but muta very slow and hard to justify - by the time I set up my hydra push (it takes 10 minutes to get around to actually attacking with upgrades) I've had to face things like guardian rushes and lurker pushes - this is because two spores doesn't cut it when you try to get more drones up, you need to keep building more and more against an aggressive muta user, and you have to build some back at home in case they backstab you and try to go for a base race the way to do this buff would be to give spore colonies irradiation attack - every time a spore colony shoots it casts a 1 second irradiation this will only be more effective against bio air, and especially against stacked bio air This. Some kind of splash vs organic flyers, visually non-intrusive perhaps. Suddenly, you open the matchup. It doesn't need to mean that ling muta scourge is dead - balancing can still be tuned to make it viable, but to open a possibility for something different, to have something to hope for. E.g. PvP can be super boring and build order based, but it can also be incredible with a long endgame phase (Free v Snow), and the latter is practically not possible in ZvZ. Nature abhors ZvZ finals :D | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
tho its just an idea that dosent sound really bad. I believe the sc bw is not to be changed. but if a change wont damage other balance or making mutas never used etc or wraiths harass bad vs zerg, than this should surely not be done. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
TvT is somewhat bearable because dropships and wraiths are indirect counters to tanks. PvP is bearable because goon masses can melt against reavers, templars, or even speedlot flanks. But there's no natural counter to mutalisks at at T1 or T2 tech level other than mutalisks themselves. Being extremely unrealistic here, but I think morphing overlords to devourers might be the only way expand ZvZ beyond just mutas. | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On March 30 2022 12:22 imBLIND wrote: Honestly, its just that the iconic unit of each race creates a significant problem in all mirror match ups, and there's really nothing we can do about it. In the context of ZvZ, it's blatantly obvious that the mutalisk is the superior unit to everything in the zerg arsenal. TvT is somewhat bearable because dropships and wraiths are indirect counters to tanks. PvP is bearable because goon masses can melt against reavers, templars, or even speedlot flanks. But there's no natural counter to mutalisks at at T1 or T2 tech level other than mutalisks themselves. Being extremely unrealistic here, but I think morphing overlords to devourers might be the only way expand ZvZ beyond just mutas. The most unbearable in TvT is battlecruiser/vessel vs. battlecruiser/vessel, because nobody wants to waste yamato on turrets/goliaths because the other battlecruisers will use the yamato on your battlecruisers so Artosis just sits on his battlecruisers for agonizing minutes behind turret tank goliath and they end up trading vessels for EMPs and build more vessels doing nothing Mass wraith was better than this I would agree to just a straight up devourer HP buff to 330 to let them survive 4 scourge hits and also be beefy against focus fire/irradiate (it can survive one irradiate, but with very little HP left). Devourers are ONLY used against cloaked wraiths in ledge guardian situations where you already have one overlord. Or may against corsairs in the same situation (but storm kicks guardian ass anyway?). I don't mind increasing the supply to 3 as well, since the HP buff will make them that much stronger. I'm really just concerned with making underutilized units stronger, and devourer is one of the least used units in the game. For Terran it's ghosts (used only for nuke rushes and lockdown of arbiters/shuttles), for Protoss it's scouts (useful when Terran attacks before you have carriers and you need some DPS stat) | ||
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NotoriousSCV
27 Posts
I wondered if map makers couldn't help in some way here without messing with the main matchups. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On March 30 2022 04:30 ProMeTheus112 wrote: only used as an example to illustrate the other meaning of balance in any matchup beyond winrate. imagine zvz is all about microing mutas in packs of 12 and doing micro tricks and you get great at it and you can win most of the time, other players or even that player may still argue they'd want to play more of a strategy game etc. 11, not 12 | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
yes. I didnt edit it after writing cause I thought probably zvz is still about a little bit more than just microing the mutas : P | ||
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Prince_Stranger
Kazakhstan762 Posts
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On March 30 2022 21:06 NotoriousSCV wrote: Many years ago i floated the Spore Colony splash idea. Maybe +1 range too? Also theres Ensnare which seems a direct counter to muta stacks if you can get to it. I wondered if map makers couldn't help in some way here without messing with the main matchups. I don't want it to affect two port wraith, so I don't want splash per se, I want a biological splash attack since it's a "spore" colony | ||
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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
I still think with a spore buff against muta wont be enough and it will still be only muta ling vs muta ling but it doesnt hurt to try, literally nothing to lose. | ||
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
In my opinion, the only thing worth experimenting with would be something akin to overlords starting with their speed upgrade in zvz, or at least being faster. I think it could potentially lead to more even/balanced early/mid game situations, where players might experiment with things like hydra switches and/or hive tech -- this could produce more games where the viewers at least get to see devours and perhaps defilers, and with those perhaps hydras and lurkers. I'm also sure there are some downsides to this idea that I haven't fully considered, and maybe it's a terrible idea :> | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
On March 31 2022 20:44 sertas wrote: I like the hydra change better but if it that change is impossible why not try the spore change its worth a shot. I still think with a spore buff against muta wont be enough and it will still be only muta ling vs muta ling but it doesnt hurt to try, literally nothing to lose. Precisely. And there is no reason to think that organic splash cannot be tweaked to still allow for mutas, also as a late game switch, but at the same time also for hydras. Obviously, if it's too much, mutas will no longer work because mass hydra IS normally stronger. The issue with mutas is how easily they destroy drones even with spore defence - hence, the splash to manage this. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
Go play Fatest!!! More over you can literally change attack typ in the editor> if you have a map specially for a certain match up ZvZ Polypoid or whatever, you dont need to care about other match ups. Either way just create/ have the map and there will be no patching necessary... As allways map creator balance the game. If people actually care that much about a more diverse and supposed less boring zvz match up, that is. | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
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GGmano
103 Posts
On April 12 2022 14:09 darktreb wrote: Making a change that only affects ZvZ (e.g. Spores or Hydras doing bonus damage to biological air units) literally would have zero effect on balance. and youre experience with balance is? | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
It's ZvZ, it's always "balanced" because it's the same race | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
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Jealous
10282 Posts
However, if I were to propose a solution that doesn't affect unit stats, it would be to either have maps that are specifically for ZvZ or ones where there is a trigger that activated when both players are Zerg. The easiest solution I could come up with for indirectly nerfing Mutalisks would be to have permanent, neutral storms behind mineral lines. That way, no Mutalisk harass. You could even make a ring of storms around the main/nat with one exit from the nat, so no air units can cross into those bases without taking damage. Another idea that has already been played around with on some unfortunate maps like Demon's Forest is cover. Why not place trees all over the main/nat so Mutas have a lower hit chance? Either way, these are just topics that I haven't seen brought up, and they are admittedly outlandish. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but this could be one way to go about it. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
This is already done for TvTs anyway, where it matters where you can siege. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
The spore dmg idea is still the best. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 14 2022 13:57 Jealous wrote: Disclaimer: I think changing anything about BW balance is a dumb idea. However, if I were to propose a solution that doesn't affect unit stats, it would be to either have maps that are specifically for ZvZ or ones where there is a trigger that activated when both players are Zerg. The easiest solution I could come up with for indirectly nerfing Mutalisks would be to have permanent, neutral storms behind mineral lines. That way, no Mutalisk harass. You could even make a ring of storms around the main/nat with one exit from the nat, so no air units can cross into those bases without taking damage. Another idea that has already been played around with on some unfortunate maps like Demon's Forest is cover. Why not place trees all over the main/nat so Mutas have a lower hit chance? Either way, these are just topics that I haven't seen brought up, and they are admittedly outlandish. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but this could be one way to go about it. Cool ideas. I like the idea of maps that are designed for mirror matchups. (Also I suggested it here ages ago: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/93645-special-mirror-maps-in-individual-leagues ) You can do a lot of experimental stuff with maps if you know they'll only be played in mirrors. Symmetry is the only balance you need and weird stuff is allowed. Why not throw in a neutral CC for each player, for instance. Infested Terrans in ZvZ! That said, I don't think the spore damage splash idea is so crazy. I agree with you on changes that might affect balance between races. That would be bad. But a midgame upgrade that gives spores a bit of splash could be perfect. It would leave early game ZvZ just as sharp-edged as it already is, but also allow a realistic pathway into a ZvZ ground-based late game. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
If you want spores to have splash they should come with splash already. Also NO OTHER building have upgrades to it, so neither should Zerg. It would make it feel like ure playing SC2 where you can upgrade CC to fit 8 units and fly away with a cannon ontop. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
It is not entirely true that no building has an upgrade. Creep colonies are morphed into sunkens and spores. Why not make spores morph into an advanced version? However, this kind of feel superfluous to me and require more effort to allow also for ground based ZvZ than splash by default, but sure, why not. | ||
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aokces
United States309 Posts
Just make some friends, ask them to play ZvZ no spire/muta pre-Hive, or no spire at all. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On March 25 2022 01:53 WGT-Baal wrote: you can surely build that change into a UMS? (i m not super familiar with how that works) and then have a tournament on it or a showmatch and see how it goes. It d be fun No, you can't really do this in a ums. You could buff the hydralisk in general easily, but no, you can't just target one interaction. My opinion on this matter is that ZvZ is pretty much always going to be a mess, because even if we could balance out the muta/hydralisk, the defiler really doesn't have a counter in this matchup. Now sure, some people might prefer getting to that point, but I guarantee you mass plagues/dark swam is not terribly interesting after the first couple times it happens. In otherwords, mirror matchups always suck. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1599 Posts
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On April 14 2022 13:57 Jealous wrote: Disclaimer: I think changing anything about BW balance is a dumb idea. However, if I were to propose a solution that doesn't affect unit stats, it would be to either have maps that are specifically for ZvZ or ones where there is a trigger that activated when both players are Zerg. The easiest solution I could come up with for indirectly nerfing Mutalisks would be to have permanent, neutral storms behind mineral lines. That way, no Mutalisk harass. You could even make a ring of storms around the main/nat with one exit from the nat, so no air units can cross into those bases without taking damage. Another idea that has already been played around with on some unfortunate maps like Demon's Forest is cover. Why not place trees all over the main/nat so Mutas have a lower hit chance? Either way, these are just topics that I haven't seen brought up, and they are admittedly outlandish. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but this could be one way to go about it. Because Zergs rely on strong muta timings to keep up with Terran in upgrades/timings/etc. You're changing the map to favor Terran | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On April 19 2022 11:47 ejac wrote: No, you can't really do this in a ums. You could buff the hydralisk in general easily, but no, you can't just target one interaction. My opinion on this matter is that ZvZ is pretty much always going to be a mess, because even if we could balance out the muta/hydralisk, the defiler really doesn't have a counter in this matchup. Now sure, some people might prefer getting to that point, but I guarantee you mass plagues/dark swam is not terribly interesting after the first couple times it happens. In otherwords, mirror matchups always suck. https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/86418572?change_second=4147 tell me this game isn't more interesting than 90% of ZvZ games you've ever seen | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On April 19 2022 12:43 iopq wrote: https://vod.afreecatv.com/player/86418572?change_second=4147 tell me this game isn't more interesting than 90% of ZvZ games you've ever seen Lol, it's besides the point. Yes, it is more exciting than 90% of ZvZs for now and it would continue to be so while people experimented. I do believe though that given not very much practice that this matchup would once again be "solved", because a unit doesn't have a counter, just like the mutalisk now. Having a game devolve into not being able to attack anything because every unit on the map has 1hp is not fun in the long term. Keep in mind that lurkers under dark swarm are essentially invincible and 1 shot everything. This is going to be like tvt, but where it's actually impossible to engage rather than just difficult. | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On April 19 2022 12:51 ejac wrote: Lol, it's besides the point. Yes, it is more exciting than 90% of ZvZs for now and it would continue to be so while people experimented. I do believe though that given not very much practice that this matchup would once again be "solved", because a unit doesn't have a counter, just like the mutalisk now. Having a game devolve into not being able to attack anything because every unit on the map has 1hp is not fun in the long term. Keep in mind that lurkers under dark swarm are essentially invincible and 1 shot everything. This is going to be like tvt, but where it's actually impossible to engage rather than just difficult. you're forgetting Zerg has broodling, so fortified positions can be broken by broodling unless you can't click on the lurkers because they are covered by overlords - but you CAN plague the overlords and just kill them with one shot | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On April 19 2022 13:27 iopq wrote: you're forgetting Zerg has broodling, so fortified positions can be broken by broodling unless you can't click on the lurkers because they are covered by overlords - but you CAN plague the overlords and just kill them with one shot Lol... I'm not forgetting broodlings. Your answer to the unlimited energy defiler is the 150 energy queen. Good luck. At best queens are pest control, not a counter. | ||
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On April 19 2022 13:30 ejac wrote: Lol... I'm not forgetting broodlings. Your answer to the unlimited energy defiler is the 150 energy queen. Good luck. At best queens are pest control, not a counter. defilers have no answer to the queen other than hiding in overlords or under them since they can't outrange them, can't shoot up or chase them what are you going to do with your 150 energy defiler against a ranged caster that can instantly kill you by clicking on you? Run into the OTHER Zerg's lurkers? try to kill them with air units that have 1 HP? I'm telling you what to do in a split map situation. The person with queen/defiler beats the person without queens because there's no way to attack into swarmed lurkers you can also ledge guardian if there's enough space not to get plagued and instantly killed (defilers can't reach the sieging position) | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
If you face a zerg that sieges a position with lurkers you have to use either air or drops. You would not buy 12+ queens to deal with this, thats just silly. Maybe even let him siege THAT position and go attack another location. Defiler is without a doubt the best unit zerg has. The ability to make a whole army totaling 50 HP is insanely good. Queen has its uses but not so much in ZvZ, maybe vs Ultras if you need quick kills but still Defiler would rock da boat even here. Hitting 6 Ultras worth 300 DMG each is 1800 DMG compared to 400 DMG (one Ultra). And the ability to spam plague every 5 seconds. Unbeatable value. So any fight in ZvZ would have to include Defiler if you want a definitive win vs a non-Defiler user. If both use Defiler it would easily be the best observer experience. Btw i enjoyed the game you linked. Really cool to see Defiler in ZvZ. Soma zerg is best zerg  If i should criticize on Soma game it would be that he should definitely buy 'Burrow' for Defiler when he want it in the middle of the map. It would have saved quite a few Defilers from dying. Without it, Defiler is always a sitting duck. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
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iopq
United States1053 Posts
On April 19 2022 21:06 MeSaber wrote: iopq u on drugs? Defiler plague range is 9 and Guardian attack range is 8. Also you dont have to hit the unit spot on so its more than 9. If you face a zerg that sieges a position with lurkers you have to use either air or drops. You would not buy 12+ queens to deal with this, thats just silly. Maybe even let him siege THAT position and go attack another location. I had a hive game where the last mining base of the opponent is a defiler lurker guardian devourer spore location. I did not break it because it only had one tiny ramp up it. Doesn't matter if there's no other locations, I could kill the whole map and it wouldn't win it for me. He had a ton of overlords over his lurkers so they weren't targetable. The only solution is to swarm up the ramp with ultras that I didn't have or upgrade. Anyway, I would prefer defiler fests over just mass muta. | ||
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