EPT[PvT] Bisu's mistakes in ASL S10 group A match - Page 2
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willjay84
17 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On September 10 2020 11:02 willjay84 wrote: The reason why I didn't count Bisu's failed robo proxy as a mistake is because it was a gamble. A gamble always works 50/50. Hence, when his gamble failed, he fell way behind without observers. To make things worse (from his matchup vs Leta), his bad engagements with zealots and dragoons against tanks and vultures and bad decision making for opting recall ahead of stasis where had he gone stasis first, and didn't lose gateway units unnecessarily, he might at least put up a fight though Leta might still have won with 3 base vs 3 base and superior macro. Proxy robo is a mistake itself, 12 nex against fact expo is a huge lead. If you just play safe with observer first Terran cannot go 3 cc on 1 factory. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10470 Posts
On September 10 2020 16:18 whaski wrote: Proxy robo is a mistake itself, 12 nex against fact expo is a huge lead. If you just play safe with observer first Terran cannot go 3 cc on 1 factory. I agree. Bisu was under no pressure to try to go for any risky play. Bisu didn't lose the game through his micro mistakes, which we can point out, but from the robo. I think after that critical error in build order choice it's pointless to analyze the game unless Leta makes equally similar mistakes. At this professional level, Leta should take a comfortable macro game and roll Bisu, knowing that any 3rd base Bisu would set up is delayed, mines prevent any counter attack, and reavers are too late by the time Leta has turrets up to protect. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
On September 10 2020 11:02 willjay84 wrote: The reason why I didn't count Bisu's failed robo proxy as a mistake is because it was a gamble. A gamble always works 50/50. Hence, when his gamble failed, he fell way behind without observers. To make things worse (from his matchup vs Leta), his bad engagements with zealots and dragoons against tanks and vultures and bad decision making for opting recall ahead of stasis where had he gone stasis first, and didn't lose gateway units unnecessarily, he might at least put up a fight though Leta might still have won with 3 base vs 3 base and superior macro. the control doesn't matter when you're behind in army and production the way bisu was, you can point to his units hitting the wrong thing but the reality is that no amount of carrier micro is going to stop goliaths when you're down 40 supply yes, technically the screenshots you posted were examples of him not engaging optimally, but no pro player plays every engagement perfectly -- you can find micro and engagement inefficiencies in just about every single game bisu has in general been sloppy and not as great as the bisu we remember from his peak years. maybe thats why he felt the need to take a risk with a proxy robotics, who knows. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
same map 7:55 + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia479 Posts
My question: what was he supposed to do at 200 instead of attacking? Bank on resources and let Light grow even more? He did open Nexus first and some say that it is a massive advantage, so what was he supposed to do to capitalise? | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 17 2020 05:13 Rainalcar wrote: Today he played vs Light in KCM, opened Nexus and also made a proxy robo. It wasn't scouted, he got the Reaver, but didn't do much damage. He didn't suffer for it at least. He was up in supply and when he reached 200 he attacked T line behind Supply Depots. He lost everything, the supply evened, and from there Light was a bit in front and won in the end. My question: what was he supposed to do at 200 instead of attacking? Bank on resources and let Light grow even more? He did open Nexus first and some say that it is a massive advantage, so what was he supposed to do to capitalise? Do you have a link? Without looking at the game it's hard to tell. Protoss can always deny bases and keep expanding/teching, or probe the front and recall somewhere else. But a protoss attacking an already entrenched Terran behind a wall sounds like a terrible choice. | ||
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Muirhead
United States556 Posts
It seems to my naive eye like there are often probing attempts to recall, keeping a terran honest, but if the terran spends enough on recall defense then attacking the front is perhaps the best approach one has at doing realistic damage before a terran reaches 200/200. Now, it is often proposed that protoss should sit back and get more bases/gates/storm rather than attack into terran 3 base defense. It looks again to my naive eye like this is an extraordinarily difficult path to take, and that a protoss is not an idiot for thinking his best chance to win is never to let a terran reach 200/200 with 3 attack upgrades. Consider for example the following recent game of Bisu: It looks to me like Bisu makes a very good attempt to play the "sit back and macro" style here, rather than attacking. When Flash pushes out with 200 supply at around 19 minutes into the video, Bisu also does an excellent (and imo very difficult) job of preventing Flash from taking additional bases during the terran push. He does this masterfully with a single reaver, and even holds off the first 200/200 terran attack with storm while holding another main. Nonetheless, he is unable to hold off the inevitable and Flash eventually secures additional bases with the superior terran max supply 3/3 army to win the game. What am I supposed to be thinking when I see protoss lose games like this, other than that you must kill a terran before max supply and max upgrades? | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia479 Posts
On September 17 2020 08:15 Whatson wrote: Do you have a link? Without looking at the game it's hard to tell. Protoss can always deny bases and keep expanding/teching, or probe the front and recall somewhere else. But a protoss attacking an already entrenched Terran behind a wall sounds like a terrible choice. www.youtube.com Game starts at 3:40. Recalls were tried, but didn't do much. So the question is - how do you play that position? | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 17 2020 21:10 Rainalcar wrote: www.youtube.com Game starts at 3:40. Recalls were tried, but didn't do much. So the question is - how do you play that position? Maybe somebody else with more game knowledge can explain better, but to me that just looked like a total suiciding of units at 12:30 (attacking into mines + a wall + sieged tanks + turrets) where he traded away his entire army for 6 tanks and like 10 vultures, and then proceeded to recall in the same spot three times in a row on top of mines and tanks. I'd be pissed if anybody were able to win a game from that position tbh. Even then I felt like if Bisu hadn't tried another recall just before he could've cleaned up a lot of Light's army at 18:30 when he pushed out . So I guess to your question -- don't throw away your army multiple times? Hopefully somebody else has a better explanation because now I'm just as confused\ why Bisu played the way he did, it just seemed like throwing away units for his first big attack. EDIT: looking at that fight again he still had half his zealots going around the supply depots when all the dragoons died lol | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia479 Posts
1. would you recall as Bisu did 2. would you attack in full as he did And if not, what would you do differently? Banking up? Waiting for Light to move out with 200/200? Keep in mind that Nexus first should be a significant advantage for Bisu, as some have suggested. Light should not be in a position to be able to win by just sitting back and doing nothing - if who could do that, Nexus first is not a big advantage (and yet it is a big risk). | ||
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Optimate
250 Posts
On September 17 2020 15:57 Muirhead wrote: I also feel like I'm missing something hearing folks complain about Bisu's choices to do ~200 supply timing attacks. It seems to my naive eye like there are often probing attempts to recall, keeping a terran honest, but if the terran spends enough on recall defense then attacking the front is perhaps the best approach one has at doing realistic damage before a terran reaches 200/200. Now, it is often proposed that protoss should sit back and get more bases/gates/storm rather than attack into terran 3 base defense. It looks again to my naive eye like this is an extraordinarily difficult path to take, and that a protoss is not an idiot for thinking his best chance to win is never to let a terran reach 200/200 with 3 attack upgrades. Consider for example the following recent game of Bisu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA6GG9Ruf3w It looks to me like Bisu makes a very good attempt to play the "sit back and macro" style here, rather than attacking. When Flash pushes out with 200 supply at around 19 minutes into the video, Bisu also does an excellent (and imo very difficult) job of preventing Flash from taking additional bases during the terran push. He does this masterfully with a single reaver, and even holds off the first 200/200 terran attack with storm while holding another main. Nonetheless, he is unable to hold off the inevitable and Flash eventually secures additional bases with the superior terran max supply 3/3 army to win the game. What am I supposed to be thinking when I see protoss lose games like this, other than that you must kill a terran before max supply and max upgrades? I think you have some good points here that people won't want to acknowledge because they want to believe the fairy tale that every aspect of this game is perfectly balanced. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia479 Posts
However, I am insterested in this specific game. Bisu is economically ahead, and all Light is doing is still staying back and macroing confident that he can win that way. This I don't appreciate much. Nexus first is a gamble for P, you can so easily lose to a push, but if you pull it off, P should have the advantage. The ball should be in T field. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10470 Posts
Bisu should just be focused on getting more tech, grabbing all the bases on the map as soon as he hits 200. When he attacked, he only had 5 bases and no 2nd set of gateways. If you want to keep Terran back like that, you need recalls, or just an overwhelming hoard of gateways/bases and play almost like Sauron Zerg style of remaxing ASAP and then trying ot whittle down the Terran force. Also, when Bisu sees that massive supply depot line, it should signal to him that Light is going to turtle. He sees this with a couple zealots at 15:00. I think a double expand then, and then adding more gateways is best. Then, Bisu should try to wait for Light's push and right as Light's army gets across the depot line is when Bisu should pounce. | ||
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Muirhead
United States556 Posts
Bisu had a 50 supply lead when he commenced his horrid attack in the wall of supply depots. Even if you feel like you need to pressure the Terran in some way, that is definitely not the way to do it. Bisu should just be focused on getting more tech, grabbing all the bases on the map as soon as he hits 200. When he attacked, he only had 5 bases and no 2nd set of gateways. If you want to keep Terran back like that, you need recalls, or just an overwhelming hoard of gateways/bases and play almost like Sauron Zerg style of remaxing ASAP and then trying ot whittle down the Terran force. Also, when Bisu sees that massive supply depot line, it should signal to him that Light is going to turtle. He sees this with a couple zealots at 15:00. I think a double expand then, and then adding more gateways is best. Then, Bisu should try to wait for Light's push and right as Light's army gets across the depot line is when Bisu should pounce. I also don't really believe the game of broodwar is "imbalanced" at the level of the whole game on ever-changing maps. I just want to emphasize that Bisu's 50 supply lead at the point of attack puts him in a unique position where his army will be strongest relative to Light's for the rest of the game. If Light moves out from behind supply depots a bit later, does the lack of protection from the supply depots actually make his army 50 supply weaker? If not, do the extra gates and bases really get leveraged into a win? I haven't actually been convinced that sitting back and grabbing more bases is worth more than lowering the tank count at the point the protoss army is strongest. The fact that pros like Bisu and, previously, Rain, immediately go for these attacks seems like evidence that they are reasonable, rather than unreasonable. I'm 100% sure Bisu is aware that Light was attempting to turtle behind supply depots when he decided to attack, and he did even manage to lower the tank count despite suboptimal micro. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2413 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
This whole theorycrafting in here about the once fastest and most revolutionary protoss player is hilarious to me. Does anyone here actually believe they can criticize Bisu's tactical decisions? Ridiculous. PS: That isn't me saying Bisu is beyond criticism. But please that's the job of the top pros. Any top pros in here? I think not. That should settle the debate I think. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia479 Posts
On September 20 2020 03:14 FlaShFTW wrote: Bisu had a 50 supply lead when he commenced his horrid attack in the wall of supply depots. Even if you feel like you need to pressure the Terran in some way, that is definitely not the way to do it. Bisu should just be focused on getting more tech, grabbing all the bases on the map as soon as he hits 200. When he attacked, he only had 5 bases and no 2nd set of gateways. If you want to keep Terran back like that, you need recalls, or just an overwhelming hoard of gateways/bases and play almost like Sauron Zerg style of remaxing ASAP and then trying ot whittle down the Terran force. Also, when Bisu sees that massive supply depot line, it should signal to him that Light is going to turtle. He sees this with a couple zealots at 15:00. I think a double expand then, and then adding more gateways is best. Then, Bisu should try to wait for Light's push and right as Light's army gets across the depot line is when Bisu should pounce. I would be doubtful of the outcome. Bisu pulled a Nexus first. By allowing a 200/200 T he is putting himself in a position to die from a single positional mistake during the T push, irrespective of his number of bases. In my opinion, P has a small set of options, none really being the best to punish a purely defensive T which should be behind after P went Nexus first. That being the case, it's clear why Nexus first is so rare. | ||
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CROSSED7
4 Posts
On September 10 2020 11:02 willjay84 wrote: The reason why I didn't count Bisu's failed robo proxy as a mistake is because it was a gamble. A gamble always works 50/50. Hence, when his gamble failed, he fell way behind without observers. To make things worse (from his matchup vs Leta), his bad engagements with zealots and dragoons against tanks and vultures and bad decision making for opting recall ahead of stasis where had he gone stasis first, and didn't lose gateway units unnecessarily, he might at least put up a fight though Leta might still have won with 3 base vs 3 base and superior macro. Idk how much insight you have into Bisu but he's an emotional player, I guarantee you he felt the game was already lost after that failed proxy and only played it out cuz it's a tournament setting. I would absolutely consider gambling vs a player weaker than you a big mistake (Bisu was heavily favored in both the matches he lost, at least in my opinion). I don't know why he did it but I imagine it was because he didn't feel too well or prepared (I know his few streams prior to the matches were of him drinking and partying and not even touching the game). A gamble is never 50/50 btw there's a thousand factors to consider as well as weighing the risks vs the rewards, this is the kind of stuff that really separates the boys from the men in terms of the strategy aspect of the game. | ||
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