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On August 19 2019 16:00 InDi wrote:
973 is a 3 hatch hydra semi allin, where you get 9 drones in main 7 in nat 3 in 3rd then build hydras constantly and try to break the P.
Zero did a variance on this which is 973 followed by a 4th hatch in a 4th exp then be economical behind this while you build 10 hydras to break the forge+gate and make P warp a bunch of cannons.
Awesome post.
Have a great day.
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On August 19 2019 15:35 Cold_King wrote:
What 973 and 9734 actually means?
As a zerg player i find it difficult to handle mass zealots push at 4-th base. Also it's tricky if and when i decide to push the natural with the hydras - on one hand i am afraid that i will throw away my advantage and on the other hand you can close the game right there... That build is good against 1 gate opener, because the protoss runs back as soon as he sees the hydras and his tech is also delayed because of the opening and the resource spent for zealots.
The number of drones zerg must have on each base:
9 - on main
7 - on natural
3 - on 3rd
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Thanks JinJin! Insightful translation.
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On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 07:47 art_of_turtle wrote:
Toss will now opt to not play on Overwatch, and when we get it it will only be Zerg's and Terrans. This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish
Hey what do you mean by real Sauron Zerg? I read the Liquipedia page in the past. I believe you, I just wish you would explain what the original style Sauron Zerg is. Thank you.
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On August 20 2019 01:23 Alpha-NP- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:On August 18 2019 07:47 art_of_turtle wrote:
Toss will now opt to not play on Overwatch, and when we get it it will only be Zerg's and Terrans. This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish Hey what do you mean by real Sauron Zerg? I read the Liquipedia page in the past. I believe you, I just wish you would explain what the original style Sauron Zerg is. Thank you.
Hey there,
So the original sauron build order disappeared years ago but the main features... all lings, no gas mass expo until you scout cybernetics core.
After your third, each expo you make 2 hats (first mass hatchery style - blackman[pg] was a sauron drop zerg)
Mass ling into pure hydra contain. The goal is to use tier 1 and 1.5 units - hydra-ling to prevent toss from getting a third until he is so far behind it doesn't matter.
Whenever you are out of larva and have 300 it is time to expo again - so if and when Toss breaks out... you can afford to lose any base or two and it doesn't matter.
Toss cant leave or he gets flooded.
Parts of the style, stopped making sense in the age of FE, before when every toss opened 2gate or 1gate, you kept making lings at a just over 3 to 1 ratio to zealots, so you are ready for any engagement from the beginning, you don't tech until toss does. Any time you reach army parity. You whore drones hard.
I spent 15 minutes searching for vods of Niza, Enough and old old Julyzerg and was unable to find one that was relevant.
The style was the precursor to the mass expo drop play of blackman[pg] and Junwi (r.i.p).
At the time... zergs like Yellow made barely an drones and did things like 2 hat, in main, lurker ling or 2 hat muta in 3 hat hydra-lurker drops (e.g h.o.t-forever in kpga) which are obsolete and even back then were frail and hard for no talents like me to do.
Sauron was doable. Make hella units and expo like a mofo, get buff and stream hydra ling unti you win.
I've played a few sauron games recenty - in 35 minutes I produce 1100-1500 units but maintain terrible unit efficiency. The idea being... you run out of money before I do.
There is a fpvod out there of the strategy played exactly as the term originally meant, but I cannot find it.
Enough 12 position on lost temple v protoss 9.
Sauron often turned into lurker contains and even foward hatching with sunken spore....
In the famous game on bluestorm where JD invented modern zvp against Bisu, we saw the reemergence of mass macro hatches at the pro level but combined with timed tech to deflect the sair-reaver and sair-dt that Bisu used to take down Savior.
Now every zerg has learned to spam hatcheries and Zeros 9734 build is quite literally a reemergence of this style.
I just woke up and I am on mobile. I hope this post is atleast coherent. Cheers
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On August 18 2019 16:20 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:On August 18 2019 07:47 art_of_turtle wrote:
Toss will now opt to not play on Overwatch, and when we get it it will only be Zerg's and Terrans. This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish yeah you're partially right. THere's some nuianse to this build that zero did not fully disclose because he needs to sell his lecture vids. This bo is pretty much single handedly destroying pvz right now. Koreans and pros are calling this 111 but here's the take.... ready? .... it's flash's 111 but can be executed by anyone s + ranks on ladder. Zero has been using this nonstop and destroyed 4 protoss and has 70% win rate. he destroyed bisu 4x straight times. Soma just used this and destroyed bisu as well and everyone.... korean scene is changing rapidly.
I think you are overreacting... When Bisu invented the Bisu Build it took months before Jaedong came up with a reasonable counter. Think about how long it took zergs to figure out how to beat 5rax, a build widely used by every terran in TvZ for a long time. And it's still strong, but 111 is superior most of the times atm. The 9734 build came out a few days ago. I'm sure it will be like every time in BW history: player will find a counter eventually. It might take some months, who knows, but this is just a normal change in the meta as far as I see it.
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I need to learn this if I ever get back to playing. Feels like I lose every ZvP right now, especially to goddamn gate-first openings.
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On August 20 2019 07:41 ninazerg wrote:
I need to learn this if I ever get back to playing. Feels like I lose every ZvP right now, especially to goddamn gate-first openings.
This is really hard against gate first stuff.
In his videos zeros scouting is terrible and since he only makes 2 initial lings, he could really get punished.
For us mortals, it is even harder without the built in database of timings.
Hell... every toss can go nexus forge and be fine.
It's great but like all zerg builds, toss can trick you.
Fake fe into proxy rax or proxy dt could murder it.
Use caution my friend. This build is good but like all zerg builds, fragile af.
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I agree.
It is nothing short of incredible that builds such as these are still being discovered. This build is amazing, and it'll require a lot of brainstorming to counter, or... A complete upgrade if protoss players level to make current builds work.
When Bisu beat Zero in that bo3 against 973, his shuttle reaver play was godlike. When he was 0-1 down, a fan told him he'll donate 1000$ if he turns it to 2-1. That places Bisu in... Kind of a 'tournament Bisu' attitude you could say. And look at his Shuttles, they have the devil riding their backs.
It is a magic build and I say it's 100% good for Starcraft to find these gems. Players will only get stronger from such discoveries. It may take months (of possibly protoss losing a lot more) like was said, but this too will be an old build one day.
The game will continue evolving.
On August 20 2019 04:29 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2019 16:20 Shinokuki wrote:On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:On August 18 2019 07:47 art_of_turtle wrote:
Toss will now opt to not play on Overwatch, and when we get it it will only be Zerg's and Terrans. This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish yeah you're partially right. THere's some nuianse to this build that zero did not fully disclose because he needs to sell his lecture vids. This bo is pretty much single handedly destroying pvz right now. Koreans and pros are calling this 111 but here's the take.... ready? .... it's flash's 111 but can be executed by anyone s + ranks on ladder. Zero has been using this nonstop and destroyed 4 protoss and has 70% win rate. he destroyed bisu 4x straight times. Soma just used this and destroyed bisu as well and everyone.... korean scene is changing rapidly. I think you are overreacting... When Bisu invented the Bisu Build it took months before Jaedong came up with a reasonable counter. Think about how long it took zergs to figure out how to beat 5rax, a build widely used by every terran in TvZ for a long time. And it's still strong, but 111 is superior most of the times atm. The 9734 build came out a few days ago. I'm sure it will be like every time in BW history: player will find a counter eventually. It might take some months, who knows, but this is just a normal change in the meta as far as I see it.
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On August 21 2019 01:16 VioleTAK wrote:I agree. It is nothing short of incredible that builds such as these are still being discovered. This build is amazing, and it'll require a lot of brainstorming to counter, or... A complete upgrade if protoss players level to make current builds work. When Bisu beat Zero in that bo3 against 973, his shuttle reaver play was godlike. When he was 0-1 down, a fan told him he'll donate 1000$ if he turns it to 2-1. That places Bisu in... Kind of a 'tournament Bisu' attitude you could say. And look at his Shuttles, they have the devil riding their backs. It is a magic build and I say it's 100% good for Starcraft to find these gems. Players will only get stronger from such discoveries. It may take months (of possibly protoss losing a lot more) like was said, but this too will be an old build one day. The game will continue evolving. Show nested quote +On August 20 2019 04:29 Miragee wrote:On August 18 2019 16:20 Shinokuki wrote:On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:On August 18 2019 07:47 art_of_turtle wrote:
Toss will now opt to not play on Overwatch, and when we get it it will only be Zerg's and Terrans. This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish yeah you're partially right. THere's some nuianse to this build that zero did not fully disclose because he needs to sell his lecture vids. This bo is pretty much single handedly destroying pvz right now. Koreans and pros are calling this 111 but here's the take.... ready? .... it's flash's 111 but can be executed by anyone s + ranks on ladder. Zero has been using this nonstop and destroyed 4 protoss and has 70% win rate. he destroyed bisu 4x straight times. Soma just used this and destroyed bisu as well and everyone.... korean scene is changing rapidly. I think you are overreacting... When Bisu invented the Bisu Build it took months before Jaedong came up with a reasonable counter. Think about how long it took zergs to figure out how to beat 5rax, a build widely used by every terran in TvZ for a long time. And it's still strong, but 111 is superior most of the times atm. The 9734 build came out a few days ago. I'm sure it will be like every time in BW history: player will find a counter eventually. It might take some months, who knows, but this is just a normal change in the meta as far as I see it.
ohhh, that's why Bisu looked so relieved when he won. I some him harassing the whole game perfectly and thought the game was in his hands for awhile, but it was the grind of a bo3
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Link to bisu vs zero bo3?
Snow's approach to the 973 in RO4 ASL was interesting, but Action had a far different followup than Zero does.
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I feel like this build is really easy to punish, you just skip Stargate and go into straight +1 4/5gate Zealot and profit. At least if you feel you know the Zerg is doing this.
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On August 21 2019 08:14 GGzerG wrote:
I feel like this build is really easy to punish, you just skip Stargate and go into straight +1 4/5gate Zealot and profit. At least if you feel you know the Zerg is doing this.
You are not going to have +1 because Z snipes ur forge, your gates are delayed because you need to get cannons...
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The main problem zergs will run into (imo) is that even when you gain the world, it is very hard to gauge an appropriate response.
Action showed that in game 1 last night.
Got to a great place, had the world ... and yet couldn't realize he was far enough ahead to ... make lurker-sunken and drop excess hydras in the main.
Without a zerg like Jaedong or Effort or Soulkey... it might be a while before the hive has a clear map to consolidation.
Every clear middlegame build for 10 years has been mapped out by one of them....
And Jaedong is good enough to get wins with 3 hat lair.... so why bother?
Really a rough time strategically for Zergs.
I got rail roaded by the 4 gate +1 today.... the timings are brutal.
My guess.... is we will see zerg use this to get to 4 base and then play lurker sunken defence until hive... this hydra-muta approach is impossible once you get to 60+ hydra and 11 muta. Nobody on earth can control that many units manually, defend, macro, scout and attack and progress strategically.... also Action is abnormally bad at mass unit control (for a pro) but he is still elite regarding the game.
973 or 4 hat lurker into 7 hat lurker scourge ling ala Effort is a way more stable warhorse (again my 1800-1900 mmr chobo as perspective).
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this build is nothing short of a brilliance. Its a zerg perfection reaching 200/200 so fast, its unbelievable. I always felt it was strange protoss could FE without the major risk of being punished for that and this does seem like a reasonable punishment. I'm getting a lot of popcorn to observe over the next few months how both zergs and protosses adapt to it. Fun times!
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Incredible the amount of post saying about few months.the only you need to do is skip stargate.go citadel 4-5 gates and never stop making zealots.GG
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On August 21 2019 19:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Incredible the amount of post saying about few months.the only you need to do is skip stargate.go citadel 4-5 gates and never stop making zealots.GG
i agree here, but in my post i also said about zergs playing around with this build and making their new variations. So its not only about protoss hard-counter per se, its a little of new dynamics in the matchup, which we hopefully get to observe.
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Zero mentions in the video that this is strongest against stargate first, and has problems against citadel. I don't see how Sair/Reaver is a counter, it comes down to harrasment like it always does. Zerg has late spire but more hydras to defend and faster eco.
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EPT
