EPTZvP Zero's new 9734 build
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
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Sigrun
United States1654 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On August 18 2019 01:15 Alpha-NP- wrote: I will enjoy this video later tonight. I would love some Protoss strategy tutorials translated. There were hardly any on the Translated thread. Thanks a lot! I have them what | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1183 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 18 2019 07:47 art_of_turtle wrote: Toss will now opt to not play on Overwatch, and when we get it it will only be Zerg's and Terrans. This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote: This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish yeah you're partially right. THere's some nuianse to this build that zero did not fully disclose because he needs to sell his lecture vids. This bo is pretty much single handedly destroying pvz right now. Koreans and pros are calling this 111 but here's the take.... ready? .... it's flash's 111 but can be executed by anyone s + ranks on ladder. Zero has been using this nonstop and destroyed 4 protoss and has 70% win rate. he destroyed bisu 4x straight times. Soma just used this and destroyed bisu as well and everyone.... korean scene is changing rapidly. | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
Thoughts of other fellow P´s facing this? | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 18 2019 16:20 Shinokuki wrote: yeah you're partially right. THere's some nuianse to this build that zero did not fully disclose because he needs to sell his lecture vids. This bo is pretty much single handedly destroying pvz right now. Koreans and pros are calling this 111 but here's the take.... ready? .... it's flash's 111 but can be executed by anyone s + ranks on ladder. Zero has been using this nonstop and destroyed 4 protoss and has 70% win rate. he destroyed bisu 4x straight times. Soma just used this and destroyed bisu as well and everyone.... korean scene is changing rapidly. TBH, I am hoping I am wrong and it is able to become a stable meta ... I play 4 or 5 hat before lair ZvP almost every game, the fake hydra all-in and forcing cannons during the window toss builds 4 gates has let me beat players much stronger then me. But mechanically, against +1 starport builds, if Toss is able to get in one decent punch, it can snowball into an avalanche of harassment. The neatest thing Zero did (imo) was using the first larva at his third hat to build 2 lings.... anticipating the slow trickle of zealots. Stork just beat this build in a very enjoyable game that is in the "casual games of the week thread". He basically played a Bisu midgame after opening Reaver -> starport and even with Zero's wonderful reflexes and prophylactic army placements, Stork harassed him into a box, defended against the lord drops and then used storm and army placement to trade incredibly efficiently. Mini's zealot opener FE would be really strong against him, esp with the very late scouting or fake FE into 3 gate speedlots could also punish this pretty hard. Glad to see the strategy section with such current and interesting information. Thanks OP. | ||
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ggsimida
1141 Posts
On August 18 2019 18:59 InDi wrote: I am facing this every single PvZ in Korean server... but so far going for stargate + robo reaver + gates is working extremely well. Thoughts of other fellow P´s facing this? yup bisu just slaughtered zero with this :D | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On August 19 2019 02:07 ggsimida wrote: yup bisu just slaughtered zero with this :D He did and I swear, I've never been that satisfied watching drones die by scarabs. Specifically that one by the ramp on the third. | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
I'm only a ~1625 Protoss player, but have been getting destroyed by the 1550-1750 versions of this. I was thinking I'd just go citadel first, which not only allows me to get +1 attack quicker (since citadel only 100 gas instead of 150 for stargate), but quicker bustout with speed and storm. Also thought about possibly getting an early goon to attack the overlords and make it so I can rush to DT to defend my front, but that may require a slightly different wall on specifically Overwatch. What's his fork if he doesn't see a stargate? The hydra den is already done by the time the cyber core is finished. I assume going sair/reaver is better if he has a subtle switch, but citadel is better if he just plows ahead with the build once he's already at ~24 supply. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2221 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
My gut says there is a way for zerg to pull everything back and rush into lurker-crackling. +2 attack is crucial for breaking sunken lurker entrenchments and armor is needed before 2-2 crackling or zerg can muscle you off the map. Interesting to see where it goes. Seems like no dt or templar time is fast enough and if you delay gates too long, zerg will outmacro you to death. | ||
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
On August 19 2019 08:47 BigBalls wrote: Very cool stuff, ty for the translation jinjin. I'm only a ~1625 Protoss player, but have been getting destroyed by the 1550-1750 versions of this. I was thinking I'd just go citadel first, which not only allows me to get +1 attack quicker (since citadel only 100 gas instead of 150 for stargate), but quicker bustout with speed and storm. Also thought about possibly getting an early goon to attack the overlords and make it so I can rush to DT to defend my front, but that may require a slightly different wall on specifically Overwatch. What's his fork if he doesn't see a stargate? The hydra den is already done by the time the cyber core is finished. I assume going sair/reaver is better if he has a subtle switch, but citadel is better if he just plows ahead with the build once he's already at ~24 supply. At 1600 MMR this might be hard to handle, but you are not taking the right approach, and it is something that at higher level sometimes isn't that obvious either. You NEED the Stargate, else you are completely blind to what Z is doing, you lose all map control. It could be 9734 or it could be 973 into 6hatch hydra... or whatever. If you try to get +1 zeals quicker, the Z will most likely have enough hydras to hold with a bit of micro, and already you are likely to lose the +1 forge if the Z has the timing right. Your objectives should be: 1- Hold the first hydra push while scouting to see Z's followup 2- Build a sizable mid game army 3- Push out and secure 3rd and 4th bases while cornering Z. At higher levels this 3 steps are achieved via sair and reaver harrass to reach a mid game situation where you can face the Z army. Try to focus on the right way of doing it, it could take a toll on your MMR at the moment, but it will help you improve in the long run | ||
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Cold_King
Bulgaria3 Posts
As a zerg player i find it difficult to handle mass zealots push at 4-th base. Also it's tricky if and when i decide to push the natural with the hydras - on one hand i am afraid that i will throw away my advantage and on the other hand you can close the game right there... That build is good against 1 gate opener, because the protoss runs back as soon as he sees the hydras and his tech is also delayed because of the opening and the resource spent for zealots. | ||
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
Zero did a variance on this which is 973 followed by a 4th hatch in a 4th exp then be economical behind this while you build 10 hydras to break the forge+gate and make P warp a bunch of cannons. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 19 2019 16:00 InDi wrote: 973 is a 3 hatch hydra semi allin, where you get 9 drones in main 7 in nat 3 in 3rd then build hydras constantly and try to break the P. Zero did a variance on this which is 973 followed by a 4th hatch in a 4th exp then be economical behind this while you build 10 hydras to break the forge+gate and make P warp a bunch of cannons. Awesome post. Have a great day. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7764 Posts
On August 19 2019 15:35 Cold_King wrote: What 973 and 9734 actually means? As a zerg player i find it difficult to handle mass zealots push at 4-th base. Also it's tricky if and when i decide to push the natural with the hydras - on one hand i am afraid that i will throw away my advantage and on the other hand you can close the game right there... That build is good against 1 gate opener, because the protoss runs back as soon as he sees the hydras and his tech is also delayed because of the opening and the resource spent for zealots. The number of drones zerg must have on each base: 9 - on main 7 - on natural 3 - on 3rd | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
On August 18 2019 14:18 AttackZerg wrote: This is an overpool into 4 hat hydra.. a Jaedong-esque build from 2010, the difference is the the 4hat is a base. It isn't map dependent at all. It is a combination of Sauron zerg... the real sauron style not the inaccurate liqupedia sauron zerg and a Junwi massage (r.i.p) I have been using this as my default for 10 years or so. It is stable and makes bad protoss over react hard. I cannot wait until you guys see what happends if Protoss goes Ham and decideds to quickly attack the 4th.... The 4th will be Sacked and Zerg rushes the natural qnd lurker upgrade will be complete about the same time. It is a fake base trade situation. This has been propping up my poor mechanics for a long time. For people that want to see real sauron zerg, there is an fpvod of a zerg named enough on lost temple or a replay hosted here by x'ds~kiwi that showcase what the term actually meant back then, not the revisionist stuff that sprouted up and was rigorously and inaccurately defended by people who weren't around on battlereports.net and the other old dead sites of yesteryear. Back on topic - this build will be insanely hard for most zergs... the amount of surface area that you can be attacked and the surface area you must scout are beyond demanding. This opens the door to every single Bisu tactic you have ever seen.... infact Bisu is the reason lair-less zvp died in Saviors time.... and Bisu just left the military so... give him a few weeks and he will masterclass this ish Hey what do you mean by real Sauron Zerg? I read the Liquipedia page in the past. I believe you, I just wish you would explain what the original style Sauron Zerg is. Thank you. | ||
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HerbMon
United States460 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 20 2019 01:23 Alpha-NP- wrote: Hey what do you mean by real Sauron Zerg? I read the Liquipedia page in the past. I believe you, I just wish you would explain what the original style Sauron Zerg is. Thank you. Hey there, So the original sauron build order disappeared years ago but the main features... all lings, no gas mass expo until you scout cybernetics core. After your third, each expo you make 2 hats (first mass hatchery style - blackman[pg] was a sauron drop zerg) Mass ling into pure hydra contain. The goal is to use tier 1 and 1.5 units - hydra-ling to prevent toss from getting a third until he is so far behind it doesn't matter. Whenever you are out of larva and have 300 it is time to expo again - so if and when Toss breaks out... you can afford to lose any base or two and it doesn't matter. Toss cant leave or he gets flooded. Parts of the style, stopped making sense in the age of FE, before when every toss opened 2gate or 1gate, you kept making lings at a just over 3 to 1 ratio to zealots, so you are ready for any engagement from the beginning, you don't tech until toss does. Any time you reach army parity. You whore drones hard. I spent 15 minutes searching for vods of Niza, Enough and old old Julyzerg and was unable to find one that was relevant. The style was the precursor to the mass expo drop play of blackman[pg] and Junwi (r.i.p). At the time... zergs like Yellow made barely an drones and did things like 2 hat, in main, lurker ling or 2 hat muta in 3 hat hydra-lurker drops (e.g h.o.t-forever in kpga) which are obsolete and even back then were frail and hard for no talents like me to do. Sauron was doable. Make hella units and expo like a mofo, get buff and stream hydra ling unti you win. I've played a few sauron games recenty - in 35 minutes I produce 1100-1500 units but maintain terrible unit efficiency. The idea being... you run out of money before I do. There is a fpvod out there of the strategy played exactly as the term originally meant, but I cannot find it. Enough 12 position on lost temple v protoss 9. Sauron often turned into lurker contains and even foward hatching with sunken spore.... In the famous game on bluestorm where JD invented modern zvp against Bisu, we saw the reemergence of mass macro hatches at the pro level but combined with timed tech to deflect the sair-reaver and sair-dt that Bisu used to take down Savior. Now every zerg has learned to spam hatcheries and Zeros 9734 build is quite literally a reemergence of this style. I just woke up and I am on mobile. I hope this post is atleast coherent. Cheers | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On August 18 2019 16:20 Shinokuki wrote: yeah you're partially right. THere's some nuianse to this build that zero did not fully disclose because he needs to sell his lecture vids. This bo is pretty much single handedly destroying pvz right now. Koreans and pros are calling this 111 but here's the take.... ready? .... it's flash's 111 but can be executed by anyone s + ranks on ladder. Zero has been using this nonstop and destroyed 4 protoss and has 70% win rate. he destroyed bisu 4x straight times. Soma just used this and destroyed bisu as well and everyone.... korean scene is changing rapidly. I think you are overreacting... When Bisu invented the Bisu Build it took months before Jaedong came up with a reasonable counter. Think about how long it took zergs to figure out how to beat 5rax, a build widely used by every terran in TvZ for a long time. And it's still strong, but 111 is superior most of the times atm. The 9734 build came out a few days ago. I'm sure it will be like every time in BW history: player will find a counter eventually. It might take some months, who knows, but this is just a normal change in the meta as far as I see it. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 20 2019 07:41 ninazerg wrote: I need to learn this if I ever get back to playing. Feels like I lose every ZvP right now, especially to goddamn gate-first openings. This is really hard against gate first stuff. In his videos zeros scouting is terrible and since he only makes 2 initial lings, he could really get punished. For us mortals, it is even harder without the built in database of timings. Hell... every toss can go nexus forge and be fine. It's great but like all zerg builds, toss can trick you. Fake fe into proxy rax or proxy dt could murder it. Use caution my friend. This build is good but like all zerg builds, fragile af. | ||
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VioleTAK
4280 Posts
It is nothing short of incredible that builds such as these are still being discovered. This build is amazing, and it'll require a lot of brainstorming to counter, or... A complete upgrade if protoss players level to make current builds work. When Bisu beat Zero in that bo3 against 973, his shuttle reaver play was godlike. When he was 0-1 down, a fan told him he'll donate 1000$ if he turns it to 2-1. That places Bisu in... Kind of a 'tournament Bisu' attitude you could say. And look at his Shuttles, they have the devil riding their backs. It is a magic build and I say it's 100% good for Starcraft to find these gems. Players will only get stronger from such discoveries. It may take months (of possibly protoss losing a lot more) like was said, but this too will be an old build one day. The game will continue evolving. On August 20 2019 04:29 Miragee wrote: I think you are overreacting... When Bisu invented the Bisu Build it took months before Jaedong came up with a reasonable counter. Think about how long it took zergs to figure out how to beat 5rax, a build widely used by every terran in TvZ for a long time. And it's still strong, but 111 is superior most of the times atm. The 9734 build came out a few days ago. I'm sure it will be like every time in BW history: player will find a counter eventually. It might take some months, who knows, but this is just a normal change in the meta as far as I see it. | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
On August 21 2019 01:16 VioleTAK wrote: I agree. It is nothing short of incredible that builds such as these are still being discovered. This build is amazing, and it'll require a lot of brainstorming to counter, or... A complete upgrade if protoss players level to make current builds work. When Bisu beat Zero in that bo3 against 973, his shuttle reaver play was godlike. When he was 0-1 down, a fan told him he'll donate 1000$ if he turns it to 2-1. That places Bisu in... Kind of a 'tournament Bisu' attitude you could say. And look at his Shuttles, they have the devil riding their backs. It is a magic build and I say it's 100% good for Starcraft to find these gems. Players will only get stronger from such discoveries. It may take months (of possibly protoss losing a lot more) like was said, but this too will be an old build one day. The game will continue evolving. ohhh, that's why Bisu looked so relieved when he won. I some him harassing the whole game perfectly and thought the game was in his hands for awhile, but it was the grind of a bo3 | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
Snow's approach to the 973 in RO4 ASL was interesting, but Action had a far different followup than Zero does. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10666 Posts
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
On August 21 2019 08:14 GGzerG wrote: I feel like this build is really easy to punish, you just skip Stargate and go into straight +1 4/5gate Zealot and profit. At least if you feel you know the Zerg is doing this. You are not going to have +1 because Z snipes ur forge, your gates are delayed because you need to get cannons... | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Action showed that in game 1 last night. Got to a great place, had the world ... and yet couldn't realize he was far enough ahead to ... make lurker-sunken and drop excess hydras in the main. Without a zerg like Jaedong or Effort or Soulkey... it might be a while before the hive has a clear map to consolidation. Every clear middlegame build for 10 years has been mapped out by one of them.... And Jaedong is good enough to get wins with 3 hat lair.... so why bother? Really a rough time strategically for Zergs. I got rail roaded by the 4 gate +1 today.... the timings are brutal. My guess.... is we will see zerg use this to get to 4 base and then play lurker sunken defence until hive... this hydra-muta approach is impossible once you get to 60+ hydra and 11 muta. Nobody on earth can control that many units manually, defend, macro, scout and attack and progress strategically.... also Action is abnormally bad at mass unit control (for a pro) but he is still elite regarding the game. 973 or 4 hat lurker into 7 hat lurker scourge ling ala Effort is a way more stable warhorse (again my 1800-1900 mmr chobo as perspective). | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3996 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Incredible the amount of post saying about few months.the only you need to do is skip stargate.go citadel 4-5 gates and never stop making zealots.GG i agree here, but in my post i also said about zergs playing around with this build and making their new variations. So its not only about protoss hard-counter per se, its a little of new dynamics in the matchup, which we hopefully get to observe. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On August 21 2019 19:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Incredible the amount of post saying about few months.the only you need to do is skip stargate.go citadel 4-5 gates and never stop making zealots.GG Well, you have to be sure it's coming though. If zerg doesn't skimp on units and goes "quick" lair instead, 4-5 gates is suicide. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 21 2019 21:38 Miragee wrote: Well, you have to be sure it's coming though. If zerg doesn't skimp on units and goes "quick" lair instead, 4-5 gates is suicide. That is not true. 4-5 gate isnt even an auto lose against mutas. | ||
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Badfan92
5 Posts
On August 19 2019 02:07 ggsimida wrote: yup bisu just slaughtered zero with this :D Here's a link to the game if anyone else's curious: | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
Halt corsair production after you make 1, Sit it at his natural or main and see what pops out of his eggs. Lately I have had success going 9 gate and then making a cyber core at my nat to wall in. I make the forge in my main, saw Bisu do this too. That way he cant snipe your +1 upgrade which is what a lot of the strength comes from in this build From there, its on the Protoss to do heavy 2 base aggression. Zerg is going for a fourth expo but this expo will be useless if he cant drone it up. So its about applying pressure to prevent that while taking your own bases. Lots of different ways to do this, we saw on Bisutube that reavers worked really well. On another VOD, he skipped stargate completely and just went for a baboon style build off 1 gas, instant citadel for zealot legs. Or you can just pressure once you get storm. Only way for Z to defend against any of this pressure is to get simcity or lurkers or both. From there its just a standard game. | ||
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zaMNal
Mongolia385 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On August 23 2019 13:46 zaMNal wrote: Anyone knows exactly what the "4" means in 9734? placing the 4th hatch at a 4th base | ||
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prosatan
Romania7764 Posts
Queens , Dark archon, guardians and many more ! Also, a nice counter to 973-4 build , where you skip stargate and go for citadel and 3 gates, placed in your nat | ||
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yubo56
686 Posts
On August 23 2019 17:05 prosatan wrote: AMAZING 50 MIN+ GAME BETWEEN STORK AND LARVA ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIFmXVPyOqk Queens , Dark archon, guardians and many more ! Also, a nice counter to 973-4 build , where you skip stargate and go for citadel and 3 gates, placed in your nat 3 extra gates for a total of four right, if I saw correctly? I haven't been following very carefully, but it seems like Larva started droning pretty early since the forge didn't even die? Or were his gates just that early | ||
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prosatan
Romania7764 Posts
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
At the pro level, there are a number of options Protoss and mapmakers have to keep it balanced. If the fakeouts prove to lead to a zerg advantage (as I don't think the build itself breaks Protoss, but having it as an option among other builds merely strengthens Zerg overall due to information hiding), Protoss could always turn it into a rock-paper-scissors at worst, but can always rely on the mapmakers to do things that slightly increase Protoss win %, like for instance giving 10 mineral patches instead of 9, creating semi-island maps, giving Protoss an expansion behind their main so they can protect a ramp to early expand, or giving multiple secret entrances to bases via worker tricks. Things like this make Starcraft more fun, and even if it makes playing my own race harder I welcome all new discoveries with open arms. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On August 22 2019 20:40 Badfan92 wrote: Here's a link to the game if anyone else's curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDLvQin64nY#t=4m Damn that was dirty. Thank you. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
I would prefer to call it 973 instead as thats all that is required to produce said hydras. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2384 Posts
On October 04 2019 15:12 MeSaber wrote: 973 refers to amount of drones.. Then 4 refers to a 4th exp? Logic?? I would prefer to call it 973 instead as thats all that is required to produce said hydras. 973 is the hydra "all-in", the 4 distinguishes going into the 4th behind the threat of a "real" 973. | ||
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oG)Reaver-
12 Posts
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