I learned Guardian Hydra build back in the days from my friend(SC2 Gamja) because he used it often against me. I really liked his style and analyzed our games.
BW fans probably know that some players have tried Guardian Hydralisk combination against Terran, but the strategy was not optimized and had a low chance to win.
Recently I started playing Zerg a lot for fun and my personal goal to reach 2500MMR(highest 2480). I kept trying my friend's style over and over and FINALLY I've mastered Guardian Hydra Build Order.
2 Hatchery Tech Up to 14 Drones @3:02~03 Lair ※ When Lair finishes, your Larva spawning time resets. You will have an extra 8 Zerglings ASAP Spire + 2nd gas Up to 26 supply Drones 3rd Hatchery for 3rd gas @5:25 6 Mutalisks and armor upgrade 12 Mutalisks + Queen's nest ASAP(@6:55~7:00) 2 Drones Main + 2 Drones Natural Hive 50% = Prepare Hydralisk Den Greatest Spire = Only hydralisks from now on.
Very nice strategy - I have tried getting a few guardians at hive tech to harass T nat min line, but then transitioning into defiler/ultra/ling as normal. Your build order commits to heavy muta, and then pure guardian/hydra.
My only concern is you have no lurkers in the mid game to help stop MM pushes - how do you deal with this? Just super careful muta micro, snipe medics, etc.? Can you stop T pushes with pure muta/ling? If yes, then I can see how this strategy would be very powerful, because you have guardians in late game to wreck MM, and hydras to snipe vessels/tanks/etc.
On April 27 2019 11:10 ggsimida wrote: what will you do if terran goes for mass goliath? unless you already have advantage i think hydra wont do as well here
same strategy, but using zerglings to defend my natural. If goliaths try to come out, i do eat it with 2 groups of muta
It seems that Zerg can pound a 2base-bio-Terran hard with this strategy if they take no damage early or during muta phase. You already said you have a way to deal with mech/goliaths.
So from your experience, what should Terran do? I guess first they should try to deal cleanly with the early mutas and then pressure the 3rd as usual? And how should they play if Zerg gets to the Hydra/Guardian-composition on three bases? What composition and expansion timing?
Do you think your build could have problems with a rather old-school, small pre-muta bio push from 2rax, to force more than the 8 lings + sunkens or keep mutas busy? I'm not sure if that can hit early enough against a 2hatch lair build.
※ When Lair finishes, your Larva spawning time resets. You will have an extra 8 Zerglings ASAP
What does that mean “your larva spawning time resets”? Thanks.
When your lair upgrade is about 99%, you will get 1 larva from the hatchery. When that hatchery turns to lair, it resets larva spawning time. Therefore you have 2 larvae to use!
This spawning time resets when you just got a hatchery(morphing), lair, and hive. Also starting with 1 larva in the beginning.
※ When Lair finishes, your Larva spawning time resets. You will have an extra 8 Zerglings ASAP
What does that mean “your larva spawning time resets”? Thanks.
When your lair upgrade is about 99%, you will get 1 larva from the hatchery. When that hatchery turns to lair, it resets larva spawning time. Therefore you have 2 larvae to use!
This spawning time resets when you just got a hatchery(morphing), lair, and hive. Also starting with 1 larva in the beginning.
Noob here, that build is super cool and I’m interested in it but in that particular game you’ve linked, wasn’t the game practically won when you crushed his M&M push with muta? The guards/hydras seemed almost like a formality.
1) standard 5rax +1. When +1 hits, you push with a mega giant bio ball. If T is good enough with micro and tactical position, then it will be really hard for Z to hold. Of course map and spawning positions can help Z.
2) 111, 9:30 push with mass vessels + bio. Again, if hes good and he dont let his vessels be snipered from scourge, another big threat. Also this build can counter easier guardians if he manage to mass a lot of vessels.
On May 02 2019 17:14 Zaibakk wrote: Two possible counters:
1) standard 5rax +1. When +1 hits, you push with a mega giant bio ball. If T is good enough with micro and tactical position, then it will be really hard for Z to hold. Of course map and spawning positions can help Z.
2) 111, 9:30 push with mass vessels + bio. Again, if hes good and he dont let his vessels be snipered from scourge, another big threat. Also this build can counter easier guardians if he manage to mass a lot of vessels.
Any thoughts?
1) 5 rax +1 can't really stop because terran can't go out in the beginning. mutalisk will constantly be harassing his rax position and making him to use stim so much often. going offensive is a best defense against 2h muta.
2) if terran goes factory opening, there's 2 openings to start with. 2h heavy ling push into muta or 1 sunken 1 hydra den 3rd hatchery wall with 9 drone mining main, 7 drone mining nat. 6 muta with 2 scourge will scout what terran is doing and then prepare for hydralisk burst combination. this rush is pretty strong and i learned from ZeLoT. Make sure you focus targeting the bunker(s) and kill his cc if you can.
1) 5 rax +1 can't really stop because terran can't go out in the beginning. mutalisk will constantly be harassing his rax position and making him to use stim so much often. going offensive is a best defense against 2h muta.
2) if terran goes factory opening, there's 2 openings to start with. 2h heavy ling push into muta or 1 sunken 1 hydra den 3rd hatchery wall with 9 drone mining main, 7 drone mining nat. 6 muta with 2 scourge will scout what terran is doing and then prepare for hydralisk burst combination. this rush is pretty strong and i learned from ZeLoT. Make sure you focus targeting the bunker(s) and kill his cc if you can.
Thank you for your reply. I see you are very expert bw player, so your game sense is probably better then mine. I will anyway try to reply to your points, just for the fun of theorycrafting:
1) If you do 14CC into 5rax +1 you have such an extremely good economy, that you can both make like 4 turrets on your rax line and explode an incredible amount of bio very fast. You can always leave like 8 rines + 1 medic in base and leave with the rest of the army when +1 upg hits. Of course it depends on the map, for example if there are many bridges/ramps the T has to cross, you can defend better.
2) Your strategy seems really strong, but is anyway a semi-all in. If T scouts it and then hold you will have many troubles later dealing with his push and a giant amount of vessels.
Anyway its very cool to hear at your strategies/responses to T openings, expecially the Zelot variant!
1) 5 rax +1 can't really stop because terran can't go out in the beginning. mutalisk will constantly be harassing his rax position and making him to use stim so much often. going offensive is a best defense against 2h muta.
2) if terran goes factory opening, there's 2 openings to start with. 2h heavy ling push into muta or 1 sunken 1 hydra den 3rd hatchery wall with 9 drone mining main, 7 drone mining nat. 6 muta with 2 scourge will scout what terran is doing and then prepare for hydralisk burst combination. this rush is pretty strong and i learned from ZeLoT. Make sure you focus targeting the bunker(s) and kill his cc if you can.
Thank you for your reply. I see you are very expert bw player, so your game sense is probably better then mine. I will anyway try to reply to your points, just for the fun of theorycrafting:
1) If you do 14CC into 5rax +1 you have such an extremely good economy, that you can both make like 4 turrets on your rax line and explode an incredible amount of bio very fast. You can always leave like 8 rines + 1 medic in base and leave with the rest of the army when +1 upg hits. Of course it depends on the map, for example if there are many bridges/ramps the T has to cross, you can defend better.
2) Your strategy seems really strong, but is anyway a semi-all in. If T scouts it and then hold you will have many troubles later dealing with his push and a giant amount of vessels.
Anyway its very cool to hear at your strategies/responses to T openings, expecially the Zelot variant!
Thanks for the compliment.
This is the RTS(real-time strategy) game so you shouldn't always be play the same style. Even if the opening is same, you can twist your game plan to something else. Lurker burst, heavy ling push, standard muta lurker hive tech, guardian-hydra combo, and etc.
ZeLoT complimented me for reaching 2480mmr max with zerg and the strategy opening vs mm. He now plays guardian hydra mostly against terran mm. He was surprised how strong this was and how i was able to win and lose vs several 2700 mmr terran. But my weakest is ZvP so im having a little difficulty to reach 2500(my goal).
I know both of the styles are semi all in and im okay with this. Im not a zerg player so i dont want the pure standard opening vs terran even though i know most of the steps and what to do. The main reason is my zerg multitasking isnt as fast as those main zerg players and i dont wanna do speedy competition vs who is playing the main race.
Also, i want my opponent to respond my game plan and mess up his plan. I have strong muta micro just as good as those main zerg players and I'm not afraid of muta vs mm. Even if he defended well from the mid game harassment, many terran players don't know how to exactly stop this guardian hydra combo due to the lack of experience and wrong decision making.
On May 04 2019 12:15 Alpha-NP- wrote: So how do you recommend how Terran can stop Hydra-Guardian?
2rax att+1 into 4 rax before factory. it's all about mm movement and muta micro. Bumping up this post because I want my analysis to be shown by many users.
On July 04 2019 17:12 MeSaber wrote: Isnt this how ZeLoT plays all his ZvT?
he usually plays the standard muta/guardian version. but with the advent of 1-1-1 meta i see him do other variants (like 2h muta still but going for lurkers instead of guardians) or simply switch it up to other kind of allins.
anyway i think this works well up to mid2000, where eventually better terrans (like scan, lol) start to know how to counter it easily through sheer solid mechanical play. (keeping up MM production, good MM micro, always engage in your favour, constant frontline pressure with high MM count, if pinned to base sneak a few MM away for base backstabs/counter etc)
On July 04 2019 18:21 MeSaber wrote: From what ive seen ZeLoT has bashed Scan with this build multiple times.
BO51 Scan vs ZeLoT plz.
Im ok with a cool showmatch series. Yes ZeLoT won several times with this build and i was the one who showed and guided him this build. Previously he did zergling muta guardian devourer all in, but he changed his thought after I've shown him several replays of this build vs 2500~2700mmr terran.
On July 07 2019 17:28 3z3ki3l wrote: Is there Replaypack anywhere with this build? Would like to learn vs. different styles & situations.
The VOD I uploaded is when the game goes classic style. Of course you will need to play something else if you are facing against mech opening(goliath) or some weird stuff.
On July 06 2019 13:58 Alpha-NP- wrote: Zelot seems like a player similar to Shine very creative.
Scan is the counter to Muta-Guardian the same as against Hydra-Guardian? And are Vessels, Valkryies, or Wraiths recommended to kill Guardians. Thanks.
muta guardian can be countered by mm vessels, and mm valkyries(att+1). guardian hydra can be countered by ONLY mm vessels(from my experience)
but 3 port wraith is a good counter to muta/guardian tho? i see pros use it to kill off guardian builds easily, i even saw a recent game of you using to beat zelot last week.
On July 06 2019 13:58 Alpha-NP- wrote: Zelot seems like a player similar to Shine very creative.
Scan is the counter to Muta-Guardian the same as against Hydra-Guardian? And are Vessels, Valkryies, or Wraiths recommended to kill Guardians. Thanks.
muta guardian can be countered by mm vessels, and mm valkyries(att+1). guardian hydra can be countered by ONLY mm vessels(from my experience)
but 3 port wraith is a good counter to muta/guardian tho? i see pros use it to kill off guardian builds easily, i even saw a recent game of you using to beat zelot last week.
Oh, that works also, my factory got delayed for no reason that game. I had to choose something that is faster than the vessels.
Has anyone tried this gurdian rush in recent years? I know Scan plays Terran these days but if anyone has a more recent guide for a good old gurdian rush or if this is still decent let me know, I would love to try it!
The only Afreeca streamers I know are on the TL sidebar are there more players that you would suggest in general?
For Zerg in general its Soma. He could use guards aswell with combination of Hydras.
Other than that you are very likely to see hydra/guards from ZeLoT nearly every game. Thats his style of play, super aggressive.
Queen is not a good candidate for learning Zerg because you need his micro to play like him. Soma is way better learning material.
coincidently, when I clicked on ZeLoT's stream he was doing muta hydra which turned into guardian hydra. It is very fun to see this type of exotic play succeed.
The only Afreeca streamers I know are on the TL sidebar are there more players that you would suggest in general?
For Zerg in general its Soma. He could use guards aswell with combination of Hydras.
Other than that you are very likely to see hydra/guards from ZeLoT nearly every game. Thats his style of play, super aggressive.
Queen is not a good candidate for learning Zerg because you need his micro to play like him. Soma is way better learning material.
coincidently, when I clicked on ZeLoT's stream he was doing muta hydra which turned into guardian hydra. It is very fun to see this type of exotic play succeed.
Yeah but if he get some kind of hiccup causing a long play game he just gives up. His playstyle is kinda allin.
The only Afreeca streamers I know are on the TL sidebar are there more players that you would suggest in general?
For Zerg in general its Soma. He could use guards aswell with combination of Hydras.
Other than that you are very likely to see hydra/guards from ZeLoT nearly every game. Thats his style of play, super aggressive.
Queen is not a good candidate for learning Zerg because you need his micro to play like him. Soma is way better learning material.
coincidently, when I clicked on ZeLoT's stream he was doing muta hydra which turned into guardian hydra. It is very fun to see this type of exotic play succeed.
Yeah but if he get some kind of hiccup causing a long play game he just gives up. His playstyle is kinda allin.
Oof, might be worthwhile to integrate a build or two from him into my play for best of 3s or something
EPT
