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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
So, what's new in the game? Are there any popular strategies or builds which have become totally obsolete since then? Any new innovations which have changed the meta the way Bisu did with his Corsair/DT PvZ revolution? The last innovation I had read about was Zerg finally incorporating the Queen into their composition more regularly, probably in ZvT. Did that stick, or was there only one particularly skilled progamer able to pull it off? | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
PvZ sees more gate-first openers nowadays, usually like 50/50 between forge first and gate-first. ZvT = later 3rds now to counter the fast +1 5 rax builds. TvP is pretty much the same. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
+1 5rax into mech switch is the new standard TvZ (though not on all maps) the meta has moved in other ways too, but those are the ones that stand out the most | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
I don't know too much about mirror match ups, so I'm not going to say much about them, but I feel like I've seen TvT become much more positional than before, and dropships aren't used as much. The reason why dropships aren't used and it has become much more about holding your ground is because of the rise of Wraiths. The Wraith is really weak, but its power lies on its mobility and its ability to poke at holes in the other player's defense. For this reason as well you will see players not build as often into BCs, because players begin massing Wraiths sometimes in the middle of the game and it is impractical to make a huge switch to BCs when you already have a Wraith army. Their strength lies in their strategic importance, speed, annoying use of cloak which forces scans/turrets/player's attention, and forces the players to not be able to move out and siege unprotected tank lines in the middle of the map. As for TvZ, the initiative has been taken away from the zerg (I don't remember at what point this started to happen, as in, I barely remember 2010 TvZ, but I'm sure looking at archived VODs could refresh that). What I mean is that 3hatch muta defense has largely been solved. From what I know Zergs try to reach lair faster (13gas before 3rd hatch in 3hatchmuta or something), and they try to be super efficient in denying terran scout/deflecting early marine push/bunker rush. You see this a lot with larva vs someone like Flash. Larva tries to skip out on making sunkens and just drones up as much as he can, making lings last minute if Flash realizes the hard drone up and tries to punish with marines. Ling speed and a few lings should be enough to protect the zerg, but it can get quite close and you will see zerg lose here sometimes. Other zergs play a more aggressive style but for the most part, zerg tries to hold off with minimum defenses in order to get as many mutalisks out as fast as possible because this means they can contend for map control against heavy rax builds. 5rax +1 is meant to counter 3hatch muta and terrans have figured out good turret placements to protect their base perimeter. They don't build turrets in their mineral lines, but around their base like a perimeter, deflecting any mutas that try to come in with marine/medic that has just been produced. The terran usually moves out with their first 12 rines + 3 medics and tries to shut down the zerg third gas expansion, and the terran heavy rax build + turrets allows the terran to move out and contend for map control and protect their base from harass. Zergs will tech to hive ASAP, and nydus+defiler is extremely important to be able to hold your expansion + natural. If the terran is unable to end the game there the game progresses usually in 3 ways. 1) Heavy dropship play. 2) Heavy Vessel play + few drops [SK]. 3) Mech switch. Some of these reactions from the terran are map specific to a degree, as mech switch is primarily used in maps where a map split is feasible (Circuit Breakers, Fighting Spirit, basically 4 player maps, and sometimes 2 player maps with lots of expansions). It becomes about starving the zerg/efficient trades and eventually phasing out your vultures + mines with a heavy tank army with long siege lines with some gols+valks to protect against a possible muta switch. The transition from bio to mech is difficult primarily because production gets cut off and the terran tries to hold the map with bio + vultures before there is a heavy siege tank presence. Once terran gets a huge amount of siege tanks it becomes difficult for the zerg and terran can pressure heavily just by sieging slowly. Queens can come in here. Maps like Gold Rush, Andromeda as well (I think because of it's semi-island characteristic) and others feature more SK playstyle since it is difficult to split the map in half or secure a ton of expansions. Good vessel play is still strong and drops are deadly as ever since zergs try to skimp out of defense in preference for a strong economy and larval economics. TvP I feel like people try to emulate Flash and 4-6 fact timing attacks aren't done as often. Primarily I think this is because of early 2base arbiter playstyle that can stop a push in its tracks. But the goal for a terran is to get 2-1 or simply lategame with strong upgrades and a strong max push to finish the game, while deterring any protoss harass throughout the game. DTs are strong because of the fast arbiter transition. Usually a game with DTs turns into a fast arbiter game. But other than that, TvP hasn't changed that much. People have tried to be as efficient as possible in their games. Check out Flash and how he plays on Circuit Breaker. Every time I see him play he goes for his crazy 4 base in 8 minutes off like 1-2 factories and then pushes at like 14 minutes or something. Optimization at its finest, although I think it definitely is map specific to a degree (you can't expand on all maps like CB for example obviously). PvZ meta has largely been spearheaded by Bisu as always, he has really pushed his zealot + corsair timings limits I think. 1gate into nexus into forge is seen often, FE walls have been optimized even more (pylon on bottom, forge in middle and gate on top is good. From what I've heard/read/seen about Bisu's playstyle is that it is really difficult to replicate because it is so micro intensive ( I think I saw TT1 say this not too long ago somewhere here on TL) and requires great control and multitasking. But the power in early zealot pressure is that it forces lings out of the zerg, which means less drones, but also it grants good vision of the zerg's base throughout the pressure. Fast speedlots off 2gates is what Bisu does often and I think it is very strong, you can catch some zergs off guard. Best and Stork, etc. play a different style, although I don't know enough to say much more. As always, DTs, Reavers, Corsairs are extremely useful but you will see storm being delayed a bit in favor of strong zealot pressure sometimes. | ||
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splunge2
22 Posts
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2037 Posts
ZvZ: unchanged ZvP: more gateway FE openings, mid and late game is mostly unchanged ZvT: queens in late game, walkirie gaining popularity, zerg playing more of 2 base play vs 5 rax and delaying their 3rd vs 5 rax, further optimization of late game mech by terran TvP: some optimization to FD builds (e.g 2 marine CC before tank), some optimization to fast 3 CC builds, growing popularity of front/mid gateway play vs rax fe builds. More popularity to hallucination arbiters or 2+ shuttle drops. TvT: growing popularity of wraith play, especially on maps with a lot of terrain that you can't build on. Optimization of some of rax fe openings PvP: unchanged Most of "meta change" has been driven by maps, as mentioned above, crossing field, skull desert, outsider and other concepts that may have been less popular before 2012. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 29 2017 19:22 kogeT wrote: I wouldn't say the metagame changed, but some openings got polished and optimized making them used more often. In a nut shell: ZvZ: unchanged ZvP: more gateway FE openings, mid and late game is mostly unchanged ZvT: queens in late game, walkirie gaining popularity, zerg playing more of 2 base play vs 5 rax and delaying their 3rd vs 5 rax, further optimization of late game mech by terran TvP: some optimization to FD builds (e.g 2 marine CC before tank), some optimization to fast 3 CC builds, growing popularity of front/mid gateway play vs rax fe builds. More popularity to hallucination arbiters or 2+ shuttle drops. TvT: growing popularity of wraith play, especially on maps with a lot of terrain that you can't build on. Optimization of some of rax fe openings PvP: unchanged Most of "meta change" has been driven by maps, as mentioned above, crossing field, skull desert, outsider and other concepts that may have been less popular before 2012. This is the best description so far. I would just add that: ZvZ is less about +1 armor than before. PvZ il almost always gate FE, (witch is super hard at our skill level) the usual follow up is +1 speedlots +1 sairs TvP you do not see sige expand any more, almost never. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On September 29 2017 18:37 Ancestral wrote: Welcome back Nightmarjoo. I wouldn't guess you hadn't, but check out Crossing Field and Skull Desert, the new ASL maps. I know you're into maps and they've produced some interesting games, both in ASL and player streams. Hmm I'll take your word for it: Crossing Field looks kind of boring since its pathing is so linear (constricted through the middle with little room to maneuver) and its expansions are so easy to take; but I actually can't find a good picture of Skull Desert, TL, Liquidpedia, and Broodwarmaps.net all don't seem to have it, unless it's posted under a different name. | ||
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Ubersturmfuhrer
Finland206 Posts
On September 30 2017 17:50 Nightmarjoo wrote: Thanks everyone for the feedback. Some of these changes seem pretty tough to figure out responses to, checking out Broodwar again is pretty intimidating! Hmm I'll take your word for it: Crossing Field looks kind of boring since its pathing is so linear (constricted through the middle with little room to maneuver) and its expansions are so easy to take; but I actually can't find a good picture of Skull Desert, TL, Liquidpedia, and Broodwarmaps.net all don't seem to have it, unless it's posted under a different name. Skull Desert is a kind of inside joke from the ASL's official casters Tasteless and Artosis referring to a map called Gold Rush. It has a skull in the center on a desert tileset, hence the nickname. I have actually enjoyed most of the games on both these maps since they are designed for more macro heavy games due to the "free" second expansion. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On September 30 2017 17:50 Nightmarjoo wrote: Thanks everyone for the feedback. Some of these changes seem pretty tough to figure out responses to, checking out Broodwar again is pretty intimidating! Hmm I'll take your word for it: Crossing Field looks kind of boring since its pathing is so linear (constricted through the middle with little room to maneuver) and its expansions are so easy to take; but I actually can't find a good picture of Skull Desert, TL, Liquidpedia, and Broodwarmaps.net all don't seem to have it, unless it's posted under a different name. That's because it's NOT called SKULL DESERT. Lol can people call it by its actual name? It's gold rush. I uploaded the ASL version with an update on version changes, same with crossing field. Also, the file is unprotected so you can take a look at it in the editor. www.panschk.de | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/743_Gold_Rush edit: some good responses here. My advice is to also take a look at some streams. Flash or Last, Larva and Bisu are good ones. You'll probably get all the info you want that way. | ||
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allhenryros
19 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 01 2017 06:02 allhenryros wrote: C'mon people. Skull Desert sounds way better than Gold Rush. Imho. Gold Rush is what the mapmaker called it thus it's Gold Rush. Other folks can keep calling it Skull Desert if they want but for anyone new or wants to know the name, you have to give them the proper map name. Now, if tastosis made the map, they can call it Skull Desert but that's not the case. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On October 01 2017 06:02 allhenryros wrote: C'mon people. Skull Desert sounds way better than Gold Rush. Imho. Your opinion doesn't matter on this subject, it just confuses people. Someone like Nightmarjoo couldn't even find the info that he needed when it's easily accessible. Yeah it was somewhat funny during the ASL cast but that's it. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 01 2017 06:02 allhenryros wrote: C'mon people. Skull Desert sounds way better than Gold Rush. Imho. Gold Rush sounds better. | ||
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heyitsMiro
83 Posts
Fighting Spirit was once Silver Wing after all. These things may change. | ||
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