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just a topic related nice pic
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kbtljT4.png)
Ok guys, so here goes my first post in Strategy section ever! I am trying to come back to BW after not playing for about 2 years but you know I am a frequent visitor here. So, yesterday I was playing against a zerg who I think is a better player in general and above all he played this turtle zerg style which I have absolute no clue how to play against. Here is a replay.
Obviously my macro should have been better but I struggle hard between hiring units and moving on the map and not getting surrounded or separated, not saying about harass (this is beyond my modest APM rate right now). I early quit, but I think it was more or less obvious that I would lose having 4 destroyed... or not? I feel like ht drops could be a nice way to deal with turtling zerg but I am not sure if this is the "official" strategy. So, what would you do differently in that game of mine as a protoss considering my low skills  ? I'd be also grateful for the tips on how to generally improve macro and what should be prioritized.
ps. I was D+ player back in the days but would like to improve on that.
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It says that I need 1.18 to watch the replay and I use 1.16 so, yeah.
However, I can give you some input. Such a wall as this one, can be busted with dragoons, right clicking the buildings one by one. If it's later in the game and you have your Robo and obs done, you can go for reavers to bust such walls. That's pretty much it for frontal assault.
HT drops are always amazing if for some reason the Zerg doesn't have scourge.
To improve macro, we all just have to play, and make it a habit to make pylons and probes and gates and units. It's just that, there is way around it, you have to invest the time and that's about it. I'd say sacrifice micro for macro, you should be able to reach like B- ICCUP with good macro and expansion timing and just grabbing units and pouring them on to the competition.
As to what should be prioritized, it should be obvious for Protoss - nexuses constantly making probes, like all the time. Then pylons. Then gates, like 8 gates for 2 expansions, 10+ for 3. With 12 gates and one cycle you blow up your psi with 24 for 30 seconds, add a reaver there and it's 28. So for three cycles you're suddenly maxed.
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I see, I tend to stop making probes at some point because I am afraid of overbuilding them and hog my suppy if I won't stop. Does toss really needs to build probes non-stop?
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On June 16 2017 19:46 letian wrote:
I see, I tend to stop making probes at some point because I am afraid of overbuilding them and hog my suppy if I won't stop. Does toss really needs to build probes non-stop?
Up to a certain point obviously, but you definitely shouldn't stop before you have you have your main and natural saturated.
After that it depends on the game I guess. If you lose some eco, rpelenish. If you're going for the long macro game - make sure have enough to saturate 3 base, etc.
In general against turtle Zergs like this, you should be able to easily soft contain him as well.
So either add a bunch of range goons to get the wall out of the way - or contain him in his base, make sure he has no hidden expo and enjoy your map control
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Take this post with a grain of salt as I'm a zerg player.
Your 3rd and 4th was too late. As soon as you see he's going lurkers you should stop making zealots and expand at 1 o'clock because he can't really contest map control with a build like that.
You economy was terrible. For the better part your literally had 4 probes mining minerals at your main which is pretty silly. Don't cut probe production until you have at least 60.
Once you get your econ going, make dragoons and reavers and archons and kill him.
Alternatively you could try heavy drop play with a lot of corsairs, but I think it's harder to execute.
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On June 16 2017 23:31 Zealgoon wrote:
Take this post with a grain of salt as I'm a zerg player.
Your 3rd and 4th was too late. As soon as you see he's going lurkers you should stop making zealots and expand at 1 o'clock because he can't really contest map control with a build like that.
You economy was terrible. For the better part your literally had 4 probes mining minerals at your main which is pretty silly. Don't cut probe production until you have at least 60.
Once you get your econ going, make dragoons and reavers and archons and kill him.
Alternatively you could try heavy drop play with a lot of corsairs, but I think it's harder to execute.
Thanks! I definitely need more practice with eco.
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In the picture you posted... just storm the probes, no? Then kill whatever is left blocking the entrance with archon splash and walk right in. Maybe not that easy in a real game, but it's doable, it just comes down to micro.
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This is something that I struggle with a lot especially when the Zerg takes a main for their 3rd and then gets a free 4th base. It gets particularly difficult when trying to break against spores and lurkers added into the mix.
I've tried teching to quick arbiter and recalling into main but that only works against bad players. I think the best way to punish this is with a large corsair force to hunt overlords and then escort drops. Either HT drops, 4 zeal drops, or DT drops. Other than that, try to match their expos by taking a quick 3rd and defending with HT and then tech to reavers and transition to a late game army.
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Watching the replay..
Regarding your opening: you don't need to cut Probes to build your first Pylon. Just sent your 8th one out right to your natural to build your Pylon. Also, you did like 7 Pylon 9 Forge. You're fine going 8 Pylon 11 Forge to get some more minerals and so you don't cut Probes. You're still safe against any cheese (assuming you scout it). You went Forge --> Nexus, which is going to lose if he does an aggressive opening. If you scout him last then you probably want to Cannon first just to be safe. Alternatively you can send out a second Probe after you build your Forge to scout so you're guaranteed to scout him somewhat quickly, this is the safest play as you can see any 4/6 Pool before the Lings get to your base and react accordingly.
By the way, Forge above Gateway does not wall, while Gateway above Forge does. In that position you can actually build your Pylon at the bottom of the choke, Forge above it, Gateway above that, and block with 3 Probes, 3 Zealots, or a combination of them. What you did will suffice but it'll block Dragoons from getting out later and is pretty messy.
Your build is a little off. You should be getting your Gateway before your gas, and your Core should usually be starting right as your gas finishes. Also you want to get your Core before you build your first Zealot. Tech'ing is really important in PvZ as usually you're racing to Sairs or Leg Speed.
So you saw that Drone go out earlier, you can assume he took bottom right. In this case I would go for a +1 Zealot timing with Sair(s), get Storm, and expand behind it. The +1 timing I like best is, off 1 gas, Stargate, +1, Citadel, Gateway, Leg Speed. You pump Zealots off of 2 Gates and usually attack with somewhere between 8 to 10. You get your second gas when you have the minerals and get your Templar Archives and Storm when you can afford the gas. You can take your third off this as you're putting pressure on the Zerg and they can't really do anything about it if they're playing the passive Lurker style. You add 2 Gates during this as well to go to up to 4, and it sets you up for a really strong mid game. They can challenge you if they go 5 Hatch Hydra, but Zealot/Storm is a very strong comp and you can hold your own.
In this game however, you're on 2 base with 7 Gates, which is a huge commitment. You need to make something happen but, as you're seeing, the Lurkers are gonna stop you cold.
So now you've expanded and it's 3 base vs. 4. I know it doesn't seem like it, but you're actually on pretty even footing. The key here is to establish map control. You want to have Obs at all of his chokepoints to see what he's doing with his army. You'll need to respect the fact that he can drop you. But it's up to him to make something happen. You can play a passive style where you murder his army as he tries to move out and deny his expansions. Meanwhile, you can macro up and expand yourself. So like when he tries to take 9, what you did is great. You sent your army there and denied it while taking the top right natural. But you still need better vision of the map, his army could be anywhere and he could be countering you and you'd have no clue (and it actually is what happens! Although it didn't do much damage).
So he runs over you because he took 6 without you ever checking it. 5 bases vs. 3 (your 4th just kicked in) is a nice advantage for the Zerg, but 4 vs 3 is pretty even. So you really need to be persistent on checking bases, keeping track of his army with Observers, and denying the 5th as much as possible.
Overall things to improve on:
- As I've said a lot, keeping vision on the map whether it's with DT's, Zealots, Observers, whatever. Just gotta keep tabs on where he's expanding to and where his army is.
- Grab a strong opening to use for PvZ. 7 Gates off 2 bases is pretty rough and led to a really late 3rd for you which put you in a rough spot
- As others have said, work on just continually building Probes so you have a solid economy. Can definitely be improved and it will start to fix itself as you get mechanically better
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I think sometimes it's ok to just not attack and keep maximum strength and map control because it is very disadvantageous to try and attack the Z unless you have a sizeable advantage. It kinda sux but in this match up, the Z has both better defense and offense in the late game, so it seems you're in your best place to just stay kind of in the middle and storm drop here and there or something. But its more fun to try arbiter recall^^ or use reavers to break them defenses is a good tool.
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On June 17 2017 22:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I think sometimes it's ok to just not attack and keep maximum strength and map control because it is very disadvantageous to try and attack the Z unless you have a sizeable advantage. It kinda sux but in this match up, the Z has both better defense and offense in the late game, so it seems you're in your best place to just stay kind of in the middle and storm drop here and there or something. But its more fun to try arbiter recall^^ or use reavers to break them defenses is a good tool.
^ THIS!!
Deny 5th, kill hatchs and buildings that are outside of sunken wall range... take expo while making reaver for counter attacks... and finally starve him to death.
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Thanks guys,
Thank you GoShox for such a detailed review. You are right about me not paying attention to the map control and zerg army movements. In fact I pretty much anticipated the attack but just could not handle it mechanically and realized that I moved my complete army to the 3h leaving the 4th nexus vulnerable. Before I tried to send them back it was too late. But I think the zerg is just a better player and would lose eventually due to poorer micro.
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There is usually a window were you can kill a lot of stuff outside the wall with range goons.
Overall a fast 3rd + corsair harass + denying a fifth puts you in good position.
I personally like dt/storm drops a lot assuming you didn't lose your initial corsair fleet.
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On June 18 2017 20:51 endy wrote:
There is usually a window were you can kill a lot of stuff outside the wall with range goons.
Overall a fast 3rd + corsair harass + denying a fifth puts you in good position.
I personally like dt/storm drops a lot assuming you didn't lose your initial corsair fleet.
Pretty much all of this.
There are builds that center on busting this type of TurtleZerg™. They are normally 2 base, high Gate-count (like 7 or 8) Dragoon busts. You get a sizeable Dragoon force, you bust the front, use Storm to prevent flanks/kill units, and you rally your gates with mass Zealots while taking your third. This is often game-ending if you manage to bust through and take out both bases that were behind it.
However, if you're not going down this path, don't force the issue. Denying their 5th, maintaining map control (not letting them out of their bases) and expanding with the aim of forcing a favorable map-split situation are your best neutral options. Storm and DT, and even just Zealot drops do wonders and can help pick off tech structures as well as damaging their economy. Be wary of drops as well (this is what your Corsairs do).
So in short, either you aim specifically to bust them, or you aim to outmacro/outexpand them with some harass on the side. You can't do the latter AND bust a decent Zerg, most of the time.
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Zerg is sacrificing map control with this style so you can definitely get that 3rd and fourth earlier. As others mentioned, keep pumping those probes until you have enough for 3 bases. If you dont want to go for an all in or heavy drop harass, you can still move your army to the other side of his bridges and storm/retreat and just generally poke at him to pressure him into making units rather than drones. This will also make it much more difficult for Z to take the 5th. Despite getting behind, I think you could have come back, but this game makes you look like you are generally uncomfortable fighting a late game zerg army. You are never going to beat his late game army composition with mostly zealots/dragoons and some hts. When your money is floating that much, don't be afraid to make 10 hts and morph them all into archons, they are essential against ultraling (and money against plague). In a lot of my pvz's that last long I'll end up with a robo at 2 or three of my expansions behind a bunch of cannons. Your army just isn't fast enough to be anywhere else and come back to defend, but a reaver or two, an ht, and a bunch of cannons will hold off almost anything in a very cost effective way. Adding just a couple dts to your army, and making corsair again can also really give a noticeable boost to your army in the late game, (and if Z is being good about sending overlords with his army, darchons with maelstorm is a great plan b for helping defend bases).
Good insight in the previous comments.
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On June 20 2017 09:01 Chameleon wrote:
Zerg is sacrificing map control with this style so you can definitely get that 3rd and fourth earlier. As others mentioned, keep pumping those probes until you have enough for 3 bases. If you dont want to go for an all in or heavy drop harass, you can still move your army to the other side of his bridges and storm/retreat and just generally poke at him to pressure him into making units rather than drones. This will also make it much more difficult for Z to take the 5th. Despite getting behind, I think you could have come back, but this game makes you look like you are generally uncomfortable fighting a late game zerg army. You are never going to beat his late game army composition with mostly zealots/dragoons and some hts. When your money is floating that much, don't be afraid to make 10 hts and morph them all into archons, they are essential against ultraling (and money against plague). In a lot of my pvz's that last long I'll end up with a robo at 2 or three of my expansions behind a bunch of cannons. Your army just isn't fast enough to be anywhere else and come back to defend, but a reaver or two, an ht, and a bunch of cannons will hold off almost anything in a very cost effective way. Adding just a couple dts to your army, and making corsair again can also really give a noticeable boost to your army in the late game, (and if Z is being good about sending overlords with his army, darchons with maelstorm is a great plan b for helping defend bases).
Good insight in the previous comments.
Thanks! I don't build archons because I actually always thought that hts are just more efficient and it is better to morph them after storming. All in all, army composition, harass strategies and building reavers for defense makes sense and I understand that. Thing is, I am simply not that fast and pumping units and moving your army is difficult not talking about microing shuttle with hts. For example, I keep losing games by just not paying attention for couple of seconds on the minimap and losing to pure mass hydra composition which is ridicuolous having 4 hts in your army. I think I need to practice on pure mechanics and then start thinking about various tricks.
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Z is just better than P hence why the pro win rate is like 47% for P. I recommend changing to terran and watch how much easier it is to kill zerg lol
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United Kingdom1704 Posts
On June 21 2017 16:00 probelife66 wrote:
Z is just better than P hence why the pro win rate is like 47% for P. I recommend changing to terran and watch how much easier it is to kill zerg lol
So this thread, for you, is a vehicle to state your view regardless of whether it's helpful, relevant or answers the OP at all? GJ 
OP, I would definitely be in the camp advising you to learn a longer game style which plays for a later advantage, rather than advocating a full-on bust off 2base. It's viable, sure, but I feel it's definitely the harder style to get right and a lot of the time you won't quite get through, have your army beaten and lose with no third. Figure out a longer, more stable game first. Once you've done that, definitely go and practice your 2base bust because in my opinion, it's a really fun style.
Off a +1 zealot opening, if I'm in for the longer game I like to play quite a heavy harassment game after taking my third. Even dropping shuttles of zeals in his 4th/main can be a major disruption, and get you a really good foothold. Just make sure you still have the capability and, crucially the army positioning, to defend if he takes offense at your harassment and strong economy.
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On June 25 2017 17:44 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 16:00 probelife66 wrote:
Z is just better than P hence why the pro win rate is like 47% for P. I recommend changing to terran and watch how much easier it is to kill zerg lol So this thread, for you, is a vehicle to state your view regardless of whether it's helpful, relevant or answers the OP at all? GJ OP, I would definitely be in the camp advising you to learn a longer game style which plays for a later advantage, rather than advocating a full-on bust off 2base. It's viable, sure, but I feel it's definitely the harder style to get right and a lot of the time you won't quite get through, have your army beaten and lose with no third. Figure out a longer, more stable game first. Once you've done that, definitely go and practice your 2base bust because in my opinion, it's a really fun style. Off a +1 zealot opening, if I'm in for the longer game I like to play quite a heavy harassment game after taking my third. Even dropping shuttles of zeals in his 4th/main can be a major disruption, and get you a really good foothold. Just make sure you still have the capability and, crucially the army positioning, to defend if he takes offense at your harassment and strong economy.
That's the point. Eventually all the complaints posted here on strategy forum boil down to one true fact, you were just mechanically worse than you opponent. I feel like that if I don't have any army as toss, I will lose and I start pumping units once I have 2 mineral lines saturated well then I simply can't control that huge number of units on the map because I constantly need to go back and hire them, keep pylons count growing. When zerg is active I am falling apart pretty quickly and I understand the problem. Unfortunately there is little you can do once you are low apm player, you just need to practice more, but again this is hard once you are over 30 and have a lot of other stuff to care about I play occasionally once or twice a year about 50-100 games which is never gonna make me a good player I guess but can't help it, BW is such a tease.
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EPT
