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Poll: Does the reaver AI need to be fixed?
(Vote): yes it can really have an effect on the game flow.
(Vote): No, the flaw is insignificant
To bring up my case:
1.)http://youtube.com/watch?v=CDhsA-oHj-o
2.) Reavers do not appropriately attack sunks, they have to be manually controlled or they will end up in their range.
3.) Reavers cooldown gets fucked up from time to time, scarabs unintentionally slow down from behind a mineral line and do less damage then they should.
4.) THe splash damage is hard to predict, I remember right clicking on a probe clump with point blank precision and only about 4-5 probess died...wtf????
If blizzard plans on making another patch, I'm all for patching the reaver AI, I think it would help out in PvZ and PvP alot. (
O and here's my anti-case:http://youtube.com/watch?v=3cB-6MrsDsQ
Mostly PvT bashing, I think the dumb ai suits such a mu XD
Also, can someone point out on how exactly a reaver should be controlled, I have this theory that it has to be right clicked everytime for more precision, but for some reason it does less splash damage. Random close drop with no right click but with a zeal decoy is a gamble, not every time does it target the workers, sometimes the nearby tank(s) or other defense mechanisms get targeted...bah turn this thread into a how to control a reaver thread then..><
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
i'm all for it but i think it's also become part of the thrill and risk of doing a reaver drop
'is it going to hit? omfg i hope it hits omfg please hit FUCK I'M SO FUCKING OWNAGE'
or
'is it going to hit? omfg i hope it hits omfg please hit FUCK' + type 'reaver ai --;; gg' and leave
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I'm against patching the AI because every time they do that, you can't rally a hatch or uncloak a ling.
It's not really that bad, part of learning how to reaver drop is learning about the AI. It's just like goliaths with range upgrade, you need to watch and make sure they don't run off after ground units.
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All of those uncertainties make them great to use because its really exciting. I'm sure all of our hearts skip a beat just watching the scarab. Just place your reaver with a clear path and the scarab should hit well.
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fucking SWEET video
i think that point 2 needs to be changed about reaver AI, and the same goes with guardians
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Not sure how, but I think if you're going to use right-click, you might as well use attack command and then target the unit. That way, if you misclick, the reaver will still attack something as opposed to just moving.
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damn i feel so bad for the P in the first video =[
but i vote against changing it
i agree with the guy that said you need give the scarab the clearest path possible...
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im against it because reavers are strong enough.
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no, fix it, in pvz reaver can be really usefull like early reaver drop, its so fucking annoying when ur first reaver fucks up and the scarab gets stuck in some retarded fucking spot, fuck that, fix it pls
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Just drop it in a place where its obvious the scarab will get its target. Even focus its fire on a particular worker if you have to ensure that it hits.
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protoss users will like it.. but if it wasn't for this starcraft wouldn't be so perfect.. c'mon if reavers hit 100% everytime what would the game turn in? i'm pretty sure the winning percentage of protoss will raise and then you will have people complaining about reavers being too smart lol.. IMO leave reaver as it is... fix the dragoon one
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Yeh, there was probably a reason the zealot died, and it wasn't to be brought back in a mechanical spider to be raped by lings. Again.
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reavers are strong enuf imo
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yea, they do plenty of dmg with their splash when u drop em on a terran's mineral line
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I agree with intrigue.
Also , reaver AI has become part of Starcrafts charm.
=]
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I have been embarassed enough. No more smarter reavers pls.
10x
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The main problem is that of attack ranges. Sometimes reavers just refuse to attack something even if its in range. Its not just sunks, although thats the most annoying bug. Would also be nice if scarabs always did damage even when not meeting their target.
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no, it doesn't need to be fixed. those fuckers are killers enough as they are now, no need to help them more.
plus that would give the protoss users one less reason for constant whining... and i'm not sure if even THEY want this...
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Reavers are stupid, and they should stay stupid. It's to powerfull unit to be 100% accurate everytime.
Same as guardians for Z, and soooooo stuuuupiddddd Goliaths for T (I'm T).
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Sweden33719 Posts
Yes, and no.
The way the scarab moves does not need to be changed, that is fine, however.. The inability of reavers to attack sunkens in certain angles HAS TO BE CHANGED.
I once lost a nexus to a sunken when I had 2 reavers.
Why? They couldn't fire at it from that angle.
Then I ended up winning with carriers 20 minutes later but that's another story!
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I just don't like 3 things :
1. reaver vs sunken, though most of the time when you have a shuttle you can unload a reaver in updown/leftright position so it works perfectly.
2. stuck scarab - situation : PvT dropping mineral line, in which a tank dwells - terran uses his scvs to surround it and scarab doesn't pass to it, moreover does it lag and explode doing no damage -
Hey I want my 15 minerals back! (this is probably most frustrating)
3. empty reavers have alzheimer's disease - they don't remember the targets and just shoot anything when the scarab has been build. In the meantime you must move the reaver somewhere and then manually control it when it is loaded again.
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when they run out of scarabs shouldnt lose the attack ability, just cant fire anything (basically it will stand still if in range and continue to attack what it was previously attacking)
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No dont b/c if they hit 100 percent of the time with pretty much 1 hit kill all attack...........
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I think the angle bug should definitly be fixed where they dont even attack right either sunkens or other units if there in a certain spot.
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ok for those of you arguing against fixing that, its ridiculous to lose a 200min 100gas unit to a sunken because the damn thing won't fire not because you screwed up but because it can't fire, thats just utterly ridiculous in any game
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lately. reaversr in pro games are owning hard.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Let's put it this way. Is there any Protoss player out there who doesn't want it patched? Is there any non-Protoss player that does?
We have to fix this. Imagine a siege tank not being able to hit sunkens all the time, or sometimes just missing horribly.
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Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
2.) Scarabs should be able to identify enemy targets and shoot them without wandering aimlessly into sunkens like douchebags.
3.) Firing angles really need to be fixed. Sometimes you just can't hit something that's in range because there's a pylon. Allow scarabs to go around the damn object.
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its just gotta fix the random targetting problem it has when reaver run out of scarabs then u build more, and tell it to attack a specific target, it will attack randomly.
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Russian Federation28 Posts
Reavers are fucking mean thing , they consume a lot of time and control just for no damage sometimes. And if u forgot to reload it with scarabs and used A+click to attack sunken that u can be sure that this stupid thing would crawl right into the sunken range and die honorlesly. When you drop it in mineral line than you have to aim your reaver into bunch of probes/scvs/drones and sometimes scarab won't explode that makes reaver drop for me somehow like gambling. And one more thing that reavers are really like is dying while recharging their scarabs.
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I mainly agree with FA. The scarab movement shouldn't be 'fixed' as it barely even is a bug. If it always did hit (IE went through buildings or never '0 dmg splash' it would even be a bit overpowered.
But the range and scarab reloading bugs should be fixed, as their main function is that they counter defensive buildings. But then the question is if guardians should be fixed too? Because even though I like that my cannons fire at them from time to time, it is almost the same thing as with reavers.
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no way. reavers are strong enough without perfect AI. would totally fuck up TvP for terran. why not let reavers use cliffs too? :X
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On September 03 2006 13:47 Myxomatosis wrote:
no way. reavers are strong enough without perfect AI. would totally fuck up TvP for terran. why not let reavers use cliffs too? :X Because you're stupid and miss the fucking point. Reavers have bugged AI, and bugs should be fixed. If a siege tank had a bug, all the Terran players here would be all over it. It's not like we're asking for some far-fetched change to the game. Fix the damn bug, it's not that hard of a concept.
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On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
2.) Scarabs should be able to identify enemy targets and shoot them without wandering aimlessly into sunkens like douchebags.
3.) Firing angles really need to be fixed. Sometimes you just can't hit something that's in range because there's a pylon. Allow scarabs to go around the damn object.
Improving 2) and 3) is okay, but it would potentially imbalance the reaver if 1) was changed.
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On September 03 2006 13:56 Luhh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
2.) Scarabs should be able to identify enemy targets and shoot them without wandering aimlessly into sunkens like douchebags.
3.) Firing angles really need to be fixed. Sometimes you just can't hit something that's in range because there's a pylon. Allow scarabs to go around the damn object. Improving 2) and 3) is okay, but it would potentially imbalance the reaver if 1) was changed. I see your point, but think about it:
Lurkers target X, anything between the lurker and X is damage (and sometimes units past X).
Siege tank in siege mode targets X, anything close to X takes damage.
Reaver shoots reaver, explodes, doesn't harm anything.
It's just inconsistency I'm pointing out. If a scarab harming anything when it explodes imbalances the game, then so be it. Don't include that. I just don't see why an explosive can only harm something if it explodes on its intended target.
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It still has the advantage of only harming enemy units, right? That accounts for a lot in PvZ at least. (doesn't matter for same race matchups by default, even though it's perhaps even more beneficial in PvP)
Reaver: "scarab built. Target identified. Launch scarab to destroy enemey target."
scarab: "Running towards enemy target... I think. No wait, which one of these cotton pluckers was it?" *syntax error* "I like pie..." *poof*
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I lost a game because a reav wouldn't fire at sunk. I got my first reav up to a secondary expo of a zerg on 815. Dropped it out of range of sunk and hit hold. Nothing happened. I made sure i had 5 scarabs, then targeted sunk manually. It crawled into range, I pulled it back just a little bit and hit hold again. Nothing. Meanwhile I had built some defence and was prepared to take that base as soon as sunk dies (attack with 2 zeals and some probes) but nooooooo. I just manually attacked again and it went into sunk range and died. Costed me the game. Scarab AI is ok, you just have to make sure the path to your target is clear. Don't shoot from behind dense mineral lines I guess.
And protoss units don't have friendly fire because of oober-leet advanced tehnology O_o. If scarab should damage friendly then so should lurkers. That would be fun to see. 
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isnt sair reaver devastating enough
upgrade scarab damage and 1 scarab will kill 2x as many probes/scvs as the units that only go to 1/2 health due to splash get extra damage done
if u wanna know exactly how to control reavers just SEARCH
your case is of bad placement, not bad ai
dont attack something your scarab cant get to, when it comes to probe lines ure scarab should go perpendicular to them, so it doesnt get all fucked up getting to a probe in the middle of a line of stacked probes.
ive had bad cases where i do a goon and reaver drop, and the goon blocked my scarab, but nevertheless
reavers pwn, make them any better and uve just ruined pvt
reavers already are perfect for pvz, get some upgrades and their even better.
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On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
2.) Scarabs should be able to identify enemy targets and shoot them without wandering aimlessly into sunkens like douchebags.
3.) Firing angles really need to be fixed. Sometimes you just can't hit something that's in range because there's a pylon. Allow scarabs to go around the damn object.
The whole strength of reavers is in their no friendly fire. IMO scarabs should do damage when they detonate regardless, but if reavers could attack self how the fuck would they kill lings? If you did that their only use would be in drops
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The beauty of the reaver is that it is such a wild card. That's the reason they are scary, you never know if it's going to obliterate all your scvs or if its going to do fuck all. They freak me out and i love it
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On September 03 2006 05:26 LastWish wrote:
I just don't like 3 things :
1. reaver vs sunken, though most of the time when you have a shuttle you can unload a reaver in updown/leftright position so it works perfectly.
2. stuck scarab - situation : PvT dropping mineral line, in which a tank dwells - terran uses his scvs to surround it and scarab doesn't pass to it, moreover does it lag and explode doing no damage -
Hey I want my 15 minerals back! (this is probably most frustrating)
3. empty reavers have alzheimer's disease - they don't remember the targets and just shoot anything when the scarab has been build. In the meantime you must move the reaver somewhere and then manually control it when it is loaded again.
2. Thats just good micro from the terran. Its like saying "No I don't want terran to be able to out micro my reaver!"
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Without reading the thread:
The problem with the reaver walking into a sunken's range should definitely be fixed.
Fixing scarab ai would do more bad than good. Ideally it would be better if it was fixed, because it reduces the luck factor of reavers, but so many other factors would be changed by it that it's better to just leave them as they are (although I would like to see double robo more PvT, <3 Kingdom  ).
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k the problem with this thread is
your case < your counterexample
if you want reavers to look bad, dont use nal ra, rock, kindom, pusan, and rainbow
in other words: (the gods of protoss) shouldent be the example against your claim
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I hate it when my reaver:
-Goes into range of a sunk/cannon
-Has its scarab caught up behind a building/mineral patch and explodes
-fires a scarab at a running target and does 0 damage
-Moves towards a target instead of attacking it
-Randomly has a slowed cooldown on its scarab when being microed with a shuttle
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
Should sairs and devourers and LURKERS do friendly damage too, then?
bye bye lurkling
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 03 2006 16:26 racebannon wrote:
The beauty of the reaver is that it is such a wild card. That's the reason they are scary, you never know if it's going to obliterate all your scvs or if its going to do fuck all. They freak me out and i love it
On September 03 2006 15:35 homZ-3k wrote:
isnt sair reaver devastating enough
upgrade scarab damage and 1 scarab will kill 2x as many probes/scvs as the units that only go to 1/2 health due to splash get extra damage done
if u wanna know exactly how to control reavers just SEARCH
your case is of bad placement, not bad ai
dont attack something your scarab cant get to, when it comes to probe lines ure scarab should go perpendicular to them, so it doesnt get all fucked up getting to a probe in the middle of a line of stacked probes.
ive had bad cases where i do a goon and reaver drop, and the goon blocked my scarab, but nevertheless
reavers pwn, make them any better and uve just ruined pvt
reavers already are perfect for pvz, get some upgrades and their even better.
Ya, imagine a TvP tank drop where the tanks randomly do no damage at all. That'd be exciting too. Plus tanks are perfect TvP, why fix such bugs?
You're supposed to play vs reavers as if they have decent scarab AI, so it doesn't imbalance the game to make the AI actually non-retarded.
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The people who say 'don't fix' because of the reason that the reaver is strong enough as it is are wrong. While i do agree that this is the case - it is strong enough now - that cannot be the reason for not fixing it. Imagine having a superweapon that's like 5x a nuke with friendly fire off, costing loads but only working 1% of the times you fire it because of a bug. You can't go around and say ah don't fix the 1% bug, it's strong enough as it is when it hits.
I think the AI should definitely be fixed (the angle part and the no damage done to near units part). As for the non-reaching of the target, i suggest it explodes after it's path searching time has expired, just like it does now, only then it actually damages? And it should of course stay the way it damages enemies only, that's the way it was designed.
If the reaver turns out to be too strong after the fiixing of the AI (i think it won't matter that much in game win percentages), then it's time to look at the rvr's balancing ( if slower firing, higher scarab costs, even slower speed are necessary).
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On September 03 2006 04:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Yes, and no.
The way the scarab moves does not need to be changed, that is fine, however.. The inability of reavers to attack sunkens in certain angles HAS TO BE CHANGED.
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On September 03 2006 18:56 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage. Should sairs and devourers and LURKERS do friendly damage too, then? bye bye lurkling
I think you may have misunderstood him. I interpreted this as even if it doesn't reach it targets and expires (in an explosion), that explosion does the normal non-FF explosive damage, but where it happens, not against the intended target.
This could be a bit too powerful in PvT foremost, since terrans probably find it hard enough to get their scvs out of the way.
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maybe just improve their chance for success?
because reavers that hit 100% and dont have buggy cool down time would literally rape someones economy and be way too cost effective(at least in my opinion as a terran player, i can only imagine how bad it would affect pvp games where you could eliminate their entire probe population in 2 shots)
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On September 03 2006 18:56 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage. Should sairs and devourers and LURKERS do friendly damage too, then? bye bye lurkling Sure. I mean, fuck, the explosive doesn't do shit anyways. It's stuck on a doodad.
Why don't they make Reavers free? They aren't doing me any good. Or why not give us a "attack terrain" option. At least that way they could be used a definitive counter for lurkers. Oh no wait, the scarab will find something to get stuck on.
Just make the damn things more consistent. What the fuck is the point of playing with reavers if the fucking thing is gonna bug, not be able to shoot, walk into other units, etc. Fuck.
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On September 03 2006 19:33 aseq wrote:
The people who say 'don't fix' because of the reason that the reaver is strong enough as it is are wrong. While i do agree that this is the case - it is strong enough now - that cannot be the reason for not fixing it. Imagine having a superweapon that's like 5x a nuke with friendly fire off, costing loads but only working 1% of the times you fire it because of a bug. You can't go around and say ah don't fix the 1% bug, it's strong enough as it is when it hits.
No its strong because if you control it properly it hits alot of the time and when it does it really owns.
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Just to add to the discussion, Blizzard may have intentionally *not* fixed the reaver AI already. Scarab AI is mentioned in one of the beta patch notes here.
To make the Reaver cooler, we increased its speed by 30% (we still have work to do on the pathing of the Reaver's scarabs. Soon.
I don't have access to the later patch notes, so who's to say that blizzard didn't decide that keeping the AI in its current state was in the game's best interest?
I need to test scarab AI in the unpatched beta to see if there's any differences though, so once I do that, I think we'll have a more definite answer as to whether scarab AI was patched before retail.
Edit: Ok, I tested it. Now, you may be surprised, but I can tell you *assuredly* that what you are seeing today is a "fixed" scarab AI. You may find it an incredible problem, but I truly believe that if scarab AI were to be reverted, reavers would either be pretty overpowered, while still being a bit annoying (nowhere near as much). At any point in the scarab's "running" where you see it turning around and going the other way, or kind of hanging, in the beta, this would instead be replaced by the scarab exploding on the spot and doing full splash damage to anyone around and anything around it.
This AI could be quite annoying as well, if you think about it. I can see it now: any time your opponent drops a reaver, you promptly setup a 3 scv wall at the shortest path from the reaver to your scv's, and bam, he only gets 3 scv kills when he should have collected 12. If the regular AI were in place, it could have easily found a way around this blockade and taken out the larger clump.
Or, in PvZ: You opponent has a clump of ultralisks, but as you bring out your reaver to take them down, a small clump of lings runs forward, getting into the way of your scarabs. BOOM, 6 ling kills as the result of 3 scarabs.
Granted, this AI can also be extremely overpowered, especially so in PvP, where a lot of the time, goons can block the scarabs from getting to their true target and doing any damage: well here, they do full damage directly to the front line of goons/zealots.
I think any change to scarab AI should be somewhat of a middle-ground between the extremes of the beta and the current. When scarabs explode, no matter what, they should do splash damage, even if they couldn't make it to their target. Whether or not this should be full damage, I don't know, but at least give reaver users something for watching a scarab pace back and forth for 5 minutes.
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On September 03 2006 20:25 Sadist wrote:
maybe just improve their chance for success?
because reavers that hit 100% and dont have buggy cool down time would literally rape someones economy and be way too cost effective(at least in my opinion as a terran player, i can only imagine how bad it would affect pvp games where you could eliminate their entire probe population in 2 shots)
agreed. reavers would be so damn imbalanced.
i like the reaver ai tho persoanlly. it makes it more exciting in progames lol
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Rpf, stfu, reaver AI is fine enough... Jesus, people cry cause they don't think 200 min + 100 gas + 25 min can kill approximately maybe 8 peons, and much more for each 25 (if that's what a Reaver scarab costs, I even fuckin' forgot  ).
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On September 03 2006 16:26 racebannon wrote:
The beauty of the reaver is that it is such a wild card. That's the reason they are scary, you never know if it's going to obliterate all your scvs or if its going to do fuck all. They freak me out and i love it
That's why I always smile when I see Rainbow or rA freakin own with reavers.
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Reavers would be fucking imba if they worked perfect and never missed etc. I think it should stay like it is now.
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fucking imba??? why shouldn't toss have a really strong and smart unit?
i'm all for fixing its ai. +128 upgrade
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right... so its ok for the protoss players to have a unit thats a fucking dumbass...
Im seeing a lot of this "its the trill of it" "it makes the game more tense, serious, thrilling" "it is the control of it, the micro, it is an art" bla bla fuck that ill tell you what the fuck a dumbass reaver means, it means that you just invested all ur shit into something that doesnt even fucking work all the time. thats just fucking great isnt it, imagine some bug with the spider mines. hey terrans guess what, heres a fun fact, now u all can spend money and time researching spider mine research but the problem is that sometimes they pop up and get STUCK and dont attack, or they dont do damage when they blow up. gee what a fucking big uproar that would cause huh. or hey heres a newsflash, now the siege tank with a range of 12 will sometimes not fire on the enemy at some angles making it a FUCKING MELEE FUCKING UNIT. so the money and time u spent on siege is just WASTED.
I used to love the reaver but then I kept losing 30% of the games wehre I go reaver cuz they just cost so fucking much and then they have the accuracy of a damn punk who just snorted 15 grams of cocain and 10 grams of meth. now I just avoid the reaver all out.
the thing is that all the terrans and zergs have gotten used to the idea that the reaver can "miss" and not hit and take it for granted, so that when we toss players wana change and take this away from them they go "hey wtf I was feeling so fuzzy and warm and safe wtf are u doing dont take this away..." fact of the matter is that the reaver bug is not there to make in balanced, it IS a fucking imbalance.
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pyrogenetix == a pissed off toss == a normal toss :D
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To the dude that said that making the Reaver smarter would result in an imbalance and then proceded to give an example of how a smater Scarab would result in the death of many probes/scvs in just two shots, making it imbalanced, I have some things to say:
I can do that now. So, would a dumb reaver be such an imbalance now because, even with the retarded reaver, I can still end up killing half/all of the Terran's scvs at his expo and main? I mean, there's plenty of counters for a giant ass worm that appears in your base, but if it's a giant retarded ass worm, then it's even better. The scarab would get stuck behind the mineral line and end up chasing the fleeing workers only to have the scarab explode between some factories, then some tanks can shoot at it. Oh, but it goes into the shuttle, you say? Then the shuttle goes into an array of missile turrets and dies. But the reaver was dropped before the shuttle exploded? No matter, it can't run, might as well just kill it with a few tanks.
I have a few suggestions at what might fix the AI, and these suggestions would not imbalance anything because we can do that with Reavers now. You can select a group of mutalisks with an overlord/larva/etc and have them stacked, should we fix that because the micro is so omg ownage? No, there's a counter for stacked mutas, making the zerg look like an idiot for stacking them. Well, it's the same thing with Smarter reavers.
1) If it has no scarabs, make it stop as to where it would have attacked if it did have a scarab. So, don't make it run up to something. Basically, make the reaver attack from its maximum range, not let it get up close.
2) Fix the memory problem. Have it stop and target its targeting and if you don't have any scarabs, still have the reaver fixed on that target.
3) The scarab should explode if it can't get to its target and still cause damage. So, if you've got an scv targeted, and let's say the scv went and built something, and you dropped the reaver and it targeted that particular scv and it got stuck on the minerals and exploded right where the scv's are mining and did NOTHING, then your drop has failed miserably since now he's probably running his scvs to his expansion. So, it should be able to damage things even when it has gotten stuck between supply depots, so at least something gets harmed.
4) I never knew about the reaver angle thing. I might have encountered it, but never really paid attention to it. Yes, fix this so annoying ass sunk/spore/lurk defensive positions can get seriously owned by the Protoss counter to that gayness: Reaver.
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The "all is perfect dont change anything" is pretty annoying.
Reaver must be fixed.
There are no reasons(non stupid) why not to fix it.
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There is a reason, it would make reavers VERY strong, and while I would prefer them to not have this bug and be weakened a little otherwise, I'd rather have them not change it at all, than change it and imbalance a mu.
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Look, fixing the AI would remove a micro aspect of the game. Is it THAT hard to just place your reaver and target the correct unit to ensure you hit? It doesn't work alot of the time, not because of the reaver itself, but because of the retarded player who can't control it properly.
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On September 03 2006 04:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
The way the scarab moves does not need to be changed, that is fine, however.. The inability of reavers to attack sunkens in certain angles HAS TO BE CHANGED.
This is the only thing that needs to be changed. Realy pisses me off at times.
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United States43350 Posts
I don't use reavers anymore. If I lose I want it to be because of bad play on my part, not luck of the AI.I used to get reavers fast in PvT but it's rather pointless. T grabs scvs, sends them to mine at expo, scarab chases, scarab blows up killing nothing, reaver dies. Of course it worked every now and then, but the 825 minerals and 400 gas that goes into a reaver drop (not including a goon, if you use one of those too) can be wasted so easily. And you can't handle those losses early game. I want a unit that works reliably.
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On September 04 2006 17:19 Kwark wrote:
I don't use reavers anymore. If I lose I want it to be because of bad play on my part, not luck of the AI.I used to get reavers fast in PvT but it's rather pointless. T grabs scvs, sends them to mine at expo, scarab chases, scarab blows up killing nothing, reaver dies. Of course it worked every now and then, but the 825 minerals and 400 gas that goes into a reaver drop (not including a goon, if you use one of those too) can be wasted so easily. And you can't handle those losses early game. I want a unit that works reliably.
god damn right you are
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Blizzard: Hey, the reaver is too strong. Instead of heightening cooldown/cost/building time, we'll just add a luck factor by making it randomnly misfire once every couple shots. There. Balance!
There are many many many ways to balance an overpowered unit. Making it randomnly misfire is NOT fuckin one of them.
If starcraft was balanced based on factors of luck, this game would be absolute shit. Thank god they only did this to the reaver.
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I don't have a problem with the cooldown and shooting range issues being fixed, but you can't have the scarab hit 100% of the times.
That would make TvP even worse then it is right now and probably just as bad as PvZ. I mean, you have to give a player some reward if he managed to pull his peons fast enough. Otherwise pretty much *all* reaver drops are gonna be successful.
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reavers scarab doing damage all the time would fuck up the balance.
True, thats not the best way of balancing it, but until a balance change can be tuned at the same time as the scarab, then it's best not to tune it at all. For all we know, this was a design decision at Blizzard, and not a shitty balance fix.
In the meantime, the only change is necessary is the reaver shooting at an angle thing. That is ridiculous.
I can't believe the amount of people arguing for 'realism of the scarab' over balance of the fucking game. It's not surprsing only shitty players are arguing for it.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think there's one thing you could change about scarab detonation tho - at least when it duds, make it do damage where it duds (ie it explodes in mid air, right next to an scv, but not the targetted scv, as it is now it wont do any damage).
(However, then people could just spam stop and have the scarab explode wherever they want :D)
That's the only annoying thing, I don't mind people fooling the scarab AI with sexy micro or it not being able to reach an scv because the scv is running away and is blocked by others, but I do mind it when you fire a scarab from behind the minerals and it gets stuck at the edge, explodes close to other scvs, but does no damage.
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FA, i dont understand what u mean. :O
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didt blizzard fix in a patch that the reaver would have to wait like 1 second when unloaded from a shuttle before it could fire because of Zelias' (or what he was called) powerful reaver drop...?
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On September 05 2006 12:12 Teroru wrote:
FA, i dont understand what u mean. :O
If the scarab doesn't hit then after a while it just explodes and does nothing. FA wants it to make it do damage when it does that instead of exploding and doing nothing. You cna also press stop to make the scarab explode but do no damage at any time, and that means if they were to do what FA said, then you could make that explosion occur at any time and do damage by timing the stop command.
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On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
never in the world you would want that, that be auto-kill for reaver sair strategy. just draw a ling near the reavers and BOOM.
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o my anti-case is stronger than my case? Well, let's just say reaver ai is not impossible to learn and master, but it takes a damn long, and unnecessary time to get to that point. IT SHOULD BE FIXED DAWMIT!
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On September 05 2006 05:15 tfeign wrote:
Blizzard: Hey, the reaver is too strong. Instead of heightening cooldown/cost/building time, we'll just add a luck factor by making it randomnly misfire once every couple shots. There. Balance!
There are many many many ways to balance an overpowered unit. Making it randomnly misfire is NOT fuckin one of them.
If starcraft was balanced based on factors of luck, this game would be absolute shit. Thank god they only did this to the reaver.
The randomness is not a balance change, imo, its a side-effect of their very early (read: beta) changes to scarab AI. In order to make it so scarabs did not explode the minute they ran into an obstacle, they added a pathing algorithm to them. Unfortunately, because of their relatively high speed, they tend to perform "pacing" due to constant re-trying of paths in order to find an opening (regular units do this too, they just don't have to explode at any point, and can be redirected, so its not a big deal). The fact that this change in AI happens to help "balance" the situation meant that Blizzard didn't see a reason in making further changes to the reaver (and I assume that they had a very hard time removing the "pacing" behavior, due to the fact that its a very major part of their pathing algorithm).
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A guy once told me that using a reaver is like playing the lottery...but the thing is i get his point, but if it was like winning lottery i'd be a billionaire
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Patching this would make reavers less fun to use, less fun to face and most importantly less fun to watch pro-gamers use them. So, regardless of how significant this AI problem is, fixing it is a big NO in my book.
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On September 08 2006 03:04 Sr18 wrote:
Patching this would make reavers less fun to use, less fun to face and most importantly less fun to watch pro-gamers use them. So, regardless of how significant this AI problem is, fixing it is a big NO in my book.
How about we make mutas have a chance of randomly dropping out of the air and die if you don't micro them right and constantly move them? Good players will learn to keep their muta moving anyways. I think it'd make the game more fun and entertaining to watch, so I don't want to hear you Zerg players bitching about imbalance, regardness of significant the balance issues would be.
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On September 08 2006 03:04 Sr18 wrote:
Patching this would make reavers less fun to use, less fun to face and most importantly less fun to watch pro-gamers use them. So, regardless of how significant this AI problem is, fixing it is a big NO in my book.
PvZ statistics isnt fun for me...
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On September 05 2006 09:36 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I think there's one thing you could change about scarab detonation tho - at least when it duds, make it do damage where it duds (ie it explodes in mid air, right next to an scv, but not the targetted scv, as it is now it wont do any damage).
(However, then people could just spam stop and have the scarab explode wherever they want :D)
That's the only annoying thing, I don't mind people fooling the scarab AI with sexy micro or it not being able to reach an scv because the scv is running away and is blocked by others, but I do mind it when you fire a scarab from behind the minerals and it gets stuck at the edge, explodes close to other scvs, but does no damage.
Yeah this would be good.
Anyway I don't use the stop command unless it is stuck - so it should have a limited time-life and no stop button.
And when stuck it explodes and damages nearby units.
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On September 03 2006 18:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 16:26 racebannon wrote:
The beauty of the reaver is that it is such a wild card. That's the reason they are scary, you never know if it's going to obliterate all your scvs or if its going to do fuck all. They freak me out and i love it Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 15:35 homZ-3k wrote:
isnt sair reaver devastating enough
upgrade scarab damage and 1 scarab will kill 2x as many probes/scvs as the units that only go to 1/2 health due to splash get extra damage done
if u wanna know exactly how to control reavers just SEARCH
your case is of bad placement, not bad ai
dont attack something your scarab cant get to, when it comes to probe lines ure scarab should go perpendicular to them, so it doesnt get all fucked up getting to a probe in the middle of a line of stacked probes.
ive had bad cases where i do a goon and reaver drop, and the goon blocked my scarab, but nevertheless
reavers pwn, make them any better and uve just ruined pvt
reavers already are perfect for pvz, get some upgrades and their even better. Ya, imagine a TvP tank drop where the tanks randomly do no damage at all. That'd be exciting too. Plus tanks are perfect TvP, why fix such bugs? You're supposed to play vs reavers as if they have decent scarab AI, so it doesn't imbalance the game to make the AI actually non-retarded.
Except you pretty much know exactly what to do when facing a tank drop. You know what it can and can't do, the limitations of it etc. You can mitigate the damage caused by a tank drop even if it surprises you. You can't for a second predict what a reaver will do in your mineral lines. It's panic mode++ even for pros. Reavers in BW are for gamblers, that's part of the magic. Is it frustrating when they fuck up and do nothing? Hell yes. Is it exhilarating when they leave your opponent with nothing to do but nurse the gaping chasm that was once his virgin anus left to him for fear that homeless people will take up residence in their now spacious cavity? you better fucking believe it pendejo
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Yes becouse if scarabs hit all the time reavers wouldn't be overpowered at all. Seriously though
1. A scarab that fucks up and explode and do no damage does not follow the same logic as a fucking shot from a tank..
The scarab is high tech and is sent out with an AI of it's own... FIND YOUR TARGET! but the scarab get's low battery and dies.. Nothing strange. Kind of like when a spidermine get's destroyed... You shouldn't mind the explosion looking the same
2. they should be able to fire at cannons and sunkens from every angle in the same way.
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On September 08 2006 16:17 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Yes becouse if scarabs hit all the time reavers wouldn't be overpowered at all. Seriously though
1. A scarab that fucks up and explode and do no damage does not follow the same logic as a fucking shot from a tank..
The scarab is high tech and is sent out with an AI of it's own... FIND YOUR TARGET! but the scarab get's low battery and dies.. Nothing strange. Kind of like when a spidermine get's destroyed... You shouldn't mind the explosion looking the same
2. they should be able to fire at cannons and sunkens from every angle in the same way.
Spidermine doesn't cost 15 minerals to fuck.
Spidermine is targeted to be destroyed therefore the detonation doesn't occur.
Scarab can decide when to explode, or you think that revear can only send a "forget it, now deactivate" message.
If so then I want a reaver to be able to fire more than one scarab at time, just limited to his own cooldown not waiting for the previous scarab to be dead.
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On September 04 2006 11:16 Scorpion wrote:
To the dude that said that making the Reaver smarter would result in an imbalance and then proceded to give an example of how a smater Scarab would result in the death of many probes/scvs in just two shots, making it imbalanced, I have some things to say:
I can do that now. So, would a dumb reaver be such an imbalance now because, even with the retarded reaver, I can still end up killing half/all of the Terran's scvs at his expo and main? I mean, there's plenty of counters for a giant ass worm that appears in your base, but if it's a giant retarded ass worm, then it's even better. The scarab would get stuck behind the mineral line and end up chasing the fleeing workers only to have the scarab explode between some factories, then some tanks can shoot at it. Oh, but it goes into the shuttle, you say? Then the shuttle goes into an array of missile turrets and dies. But the reaver was dropped before the shuttle exploded? No matter, it can't run, might as well just kill it with a few tanks.
I have a few suggestions at what might fix the AI, and these suggestions would not imbalance anything because we can do that with Reavers now. You can select a group of mutalisks with an overlord/larva/etc and have them stacked, should we fix that because the micro is so omg ownage? No, there's a counter for stacked mutas, making the zerg look like an idiot for stacking them. Well, it's the same thing with Smarter reavers.
1) If it has no scarabs, make it stop as to where it would have attacked if it did have a scarab. So, don't make it run up to something. Basically, make the reaver attack from its maximum range, not let it get up close.
2) Fix the memory problem. Have it stop and target its targeting and if you don't have any scarabs, still have the reaver fixed on that target.
3) The scarab should explode if it can't get to its target and still cause damage. So, if you've got an scv targeted, and let's say the scv went and built something, and you dropped the reaver and it targeted that particular scv and it got stuck on the minerals and exploded right where the scv's are mining and did NOTHING, then your drop has failed miserably since now he's probably running his scvs to his expansion. So, it should be able to damage things even when it has gotten stuck between supply depots, so at least something gets harmed.
4) I never knew about the reaver angle thing. I might have encountered it, but never really paid attention to it. Yes, fix this so annoying ass sunk/spore/lurk defensive positions can get seriously owned by the Protoss counter to that gayness: Reaver.
Mhmm...
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The stuff that happens in your anti-case is really rare. If moves like that were easier to pull off with reavers it would help with a lot of the balance issues in PvZ.
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In every case that scarab fails to impact the target directly it should inflict the splash damage:
Manual stop, explosion by time, explosion out of reaver range.
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Change the angle bug. Please.
I don't care the hitting randomly w/e. It's part of the gamble but if it won't fire at all it's like gambling knowing you will lose 100%
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YES... starcraft is a great game because the luck factor is very small, so they shoul fixed...its not fair to win/loose a game cause luck gave you and advantage.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
make scarabs selectable duh
simple answer
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fuck all of you against changing the reaver ai. seriously. for you ppl to even have the balls to say that really disgusts me. just because it gives you the chance to go "phew that was close good thing the reaver is a complete stupid fucking idiot" is not at all a reason to leave it as it is.
yet again it seems to everyone that its completely fucking ok for a protoss player to invest everything into something that doesnt work sometimes, just because IF it works it can cause severe damage.
its like saying you paid your motherfucking taxes for 40 years but if your house catches fire the super high tech advanced technology that the fireman developed with the zillion tax money you paid doesnt always work, but hey the good news is IF the high tech freezing technology that instantly removes any traces of fire and heat works, it works really well. well fuck no no one in the world would want that would they.
it pisses me off when you say its ok as it is. just to make it fair we should make the siege tank and lurkers missfire 20% of the time. then we will see how much of this "wild card, gamble, magic, betting, unknown, tense" bullshit remains.
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If reaver hit all the time, then Protoss basically have both ground advantage and air advantage!
To kill a reaver, you normally throw groups of things split into more groups to outgroup the groupless reaver. Unfortunately, basic reaver micro has you killing multiple units... exactly what it specializes in.
I'm against increasing the reaver ai; I'm hesitant enough to take out reavers as it is.
I don't want to know for sure that the counter force will lose X amount of men.
Added: @ pyrogenetix
Maybe you should take up Z?
Added: @ Reaver's angle
I think with the angle change, it will be able to hit a siege tank at the same angle. I'm not sure... Regardless, I'm all for it! It's pretty gay as it is.
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sorry about reviving and old post, but to all saying no, i give this link
http://www.playsc.com/replays/view1.php?type=replay&ID=584
game is a one sided rape by toss anyway, but the drops in the beginning are hilarious.
there should be a micro ums map where you get a reaver and a bunch of scv-s, and the goal is to shoot all 10 scarrabs without killing any...
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EPT
