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On September 03 2006 05:26 LastWish wrote:
I just don't like 3 things :
1. reaver vs sunken, though most of the time when you have a shuttle you can unload a reaver in updown/leftright position so it works perfectly.
2. stuck scarab - situation : PvT dropping mineral line, in which a tank dwells - terran uses his scvs to surround it and scarab doesn't pass to it, moreover does it lag and explode doing no damage -
Hey I want my 15 minerals back! (this is probably most frustrating)
3. empty reavers have alzheimer's disease - they don't remember the targets and just shoot anything when the scarab has been build. In the meantime you must move the reaver somewhere and then manually control it when it is loaded again.
2. Thats just good micro from the terran. Its like saying "No I don't want terran to be able to out micro my reaver!"
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Without reading the thread:
The problem with the reaver walking into a sunken's range should definitely be fixed.
Fixing scarab ai would do more bad than good. Ideally it would be better if it was fixed, because it reduces the luck factor of reavers, but so many other factors would be changed by it that it's better to just leave them as they are (although I would like to see double robo more PvT, <3 Kingdom  ).
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k the problem with this thread is
your case < your counterexample
if you want reavers to look bad, dont use nal ra, rock, kindom, pusan, and rainbow
in other words: (the gods of protoss) shouldent be the example against your claim
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I hate it when my reaver:
-Goes into range of a sunk/cannon
-Has its scarab caught up behind a building/mineral patch and explodes
-fires a scarab at a running target and does 0 damage
-Moves towards a target instead of attacking it
-Randomly has a slowed cooldown on its scarab when being microed with a shuttle
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage.
Should sairs and devourers and LURKERS do friendly damage too, then?
bye bye lurkling
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 03 2006 16:26 racebannon wrote:
The beauty of the reaver is that it is such a wild card. That's the reason they are scary, you never know if it's going to obliterate all your scvs or if its going to do fuck all. They freak me out and i love it
On September 03 2006 15:35 homZ-3k wrote:
isnt sair reaver devastating enough
upgrade scarab damage and 1 scarab will kill 2x as many probes/scvs as the units that only go to 1/2 health due to splash get extra damage done
if u wanna know exactly how to control reavers just SEARCH
your case is of bad placement, not bad ai
dont attack something your scarab cant get to, when it comes to probe lines ure scarab should go perpendicular to them, so it doesnt get all fucked up getting to a probe in the middle of a line of stacked probes.
ive had bad cases where i do a goon and reaver drop, and the goon blocked my scarab, but nevertheless
reavers pwn, make them any better and uve just ruined pvt
reavers already are perfect for pvz, get some upgrades and their even better.
Ya, imagine a TvP tank drop where the tanks randomly do no damage at all. That'd be exciting too. Plus tanks are perfect TvP, why fix such bugs?
You're supposed to play vs reavers as if they have decent scarab AI, so it doesn't imbalance the game to make the AI actually non-retarded.
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The people who say 'don't fix' because of the reason that the reaver is strong enough as it is are wrong. While i do agree that this is the case - it is strong enough now - that cannot be the reason for not fixing it. Imagine having a superweapon that's like 5x a nuke with friendly fire off, costing loads but only working 1% of the times you fire it because of a bug. You can't go around and say ah don't fix the 1% bug, it's strong enough as it is when it hits.
I think the AI should definitely be fixed (the angle part and the no damage done to near units part). As for the non-reaching of the target, i suggest it explodes after it's path searching time has expired, just like it does now, only then it actually damages? And it should of course stay the way it damages enemies only, that's the way it was designed.
If the reaver turns out to be too strong after the fiixing of the AI (i think it won't matter that much in game win percentages), then it's time to look at the rvr's balancing ( if slower firing, higher scarab costs, even slower speed are necessary).
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On September 03 2006 04:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Yes, and no.
The way the scarab moves does not need to be changed, that is fine, however.. The inability of reavers to attack sunkens in certain angles HAS TO BE CHANGED.
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On September 03 2006 18:56 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage. Should sairs and devourers and LURKERS do friendly damage too, then? bye bye lurkling
I think you may have misunderstood him. I interpreted this as even if it doesn't reach it targets and expires (in an explosion), that explosion does the normal non-FF explosive damage, but where it happens, not against the intended target.
This could be a bit too powerful in PvT foremost, since terrans probably find it hard enough to get their scvs out of the way.
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maybe just improve their chance for success?
because reavers that hit 100% and dont have buggy cool down time would literally rape someones economy and be way too cost effective(at least in my opinion as a terran player, i can only imagine how bad it would affect pvp games where you could eliminate their entire probe population in 2 shots)
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On September 03 2006 18:56 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2006 11:08 rpf289 wrote:
Things that need to be fixed:
1.) Scarab explosion affects everything. I'm sick and tired of seeing a fucking explosive explode next to an SCV it wasn't heading for only to see it live with 100% HP. Siege Tank splash damage affects all units, buildings, and even friendly units. So yes, that means that if an enemy unti drags a scarab into a pack of my own dragoons, they should take damage. Should sairs and devourers and LURKERS do friendly damage too, then? bye bye lurkling Sure. I mean, fuck, the explosive doesn't do shit anyways. It's stuck on a doodad.
Why don't they make Reavers free? They aren't doing me any good. Or why not give us a "attack terrain" option. At least that way they could be used a definitive counter for lurkers. Oh no wait, the scarab will find something to get stuck on.
Just make the damn things more consistent. What the fuck is the point of playing with reavers if the fucking thing is gonna bug, not be able to shoot, walk into other units, etc. Fuck.
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On September 03 2006 19:33 aseq wrote:
The people who say 'don't fix' because of the reason that the reaver is strong enough as it is are wrong. While i do agree that this is the case - it is strong enough now - that cannot be the reason for not fixing it. Imagine having a superweapon that's like 5x a nuke with friendly fire off, costing loads but only working 1% of the times you fire it because of a bug. You can't go around and say ah don't fix the 1% bug, it's strong enough as it is when it hits.
No its strong because if you control it properly it hits alot of the time and when it does it really owns.
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Just to add to the discussion, Blizzard may have intentionally *not* fixed the reaver AI already. Scarab AI is mentioned in one of the beta patch notes here.
To make the Reaver cooler, we increased its speed by 30% (we still have work to do on the pathing of the Reaver's scarabs. Soon.
I don't have access to the later patch notes, so who's to say that blizzard didn't decide that keeping the AI in its current state was in the game's best interest?
I need to test scarab AI in the unpatched beta to see if there's any differences though, so once I do that, I think we'll have a more definite answer as to whether scarab AI was patched before retail.
Edit: Ok, I tested it. Now, you may be surprised, but I can tell you *assuredly* that what you are seeing today is a "fixed" scarab AI. You may find it an incredible problem, but I truly believe that if scarab AI were to be reverted, reavers would either be pretty overpowered, while still being a bit annoying (nowhere near as much). At any point in the scarab's "running" where you see it turning around and going the other way, or kind of hanging, in the beta, this would instead be replaced by the scarab exploding on the spot and doing full splash damage to anyone around and anything around it.
This AI could be quite annoying as well, if you think about it. I can see it now: any time your opponent drops a reaver, you promptly setup a 3 scv wall at the shortest path from the reaver to your scv's, and bam, he only gets 3 scv kills when he should have collected 12. If the regular AI were in place, it could have easily found a way around this blockade and taken out the larger clump.
Or, in PvZ: You opponent has a clump of ultralisks, but as you bring out your reaver to take them down, a small clump of lings runs forward, getting into the way of your scarabs. BOOM, 6 ling kills as the result of 3 scarabs.
Granted, this AI can also be extremely overpowered, especially so in PvP, where a lot of the time, goons can block the scarabs from getting to their true target and doing any damage: well here, they do full damage directly to the front line of goons/zealots.
I think any change to scarab AI should be somewhat of a middle-ground between the extremes of the beta and the current. When scarabs explode, no matter what, they should do splash damage, even if they couldn't make it to their target. Whether or not this should be full damage, I don't know, but at least give reaver users something for watching a scarab pace back and forth for 5 minutes.
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On September 03 2006 20:25 Sadist wrote:
maybe just improve their chance for success?
because reavers that hit 100% and dont have buggy cool down time would literally rape someones economy and be way too cost effective(at least in my opinion as a terran player, i can only imagine how bad it would affect pvp games where you could eliminate their entire probe population in 2 shots)
agreed. reavers would be so damn imbalanced.
i like the reaver ai tho persoanlly. it makes it more exciting in progames lol
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Rpf, stfu, reaver AI is fine enough... Jesus, people cry cause they don't think 200 min + 100 gas + 25 min can kill approximately maybe 8 peons, and much more for each 25 (if that's what a Reaver scarab costs, I even fuckin' forgot  ).
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On September 03 2006 16:26 racebannon wrote:
The beauty of the reaver is that it is such a wild card. That's the reason they are scary, you never know if it's going to obliterate all your scvs or if its going to do fuck all. They freak me out and i love it
That's why I always smile when I see Rainbow or rA freakin own with reavers.
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Reavers would be fucking imba if they worked perfect and never missed etc. I think it should stay like it is now.
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fucking imba??? why shouldn't toss have a really strong and smart unit?
i'm all for fixing its ai. +128 upgrade
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right... so its ok for the protoss players to have a unit thats a fucking dumbass...
Im seeing a lot of this "its the trill of it" "it makes the game more tense, serious, thrilling" "it is the control of it, the micro, it is an art" bla bla fuck that ill tell you what the fuck a dumbass reaver means, it means that you just invested all ur shit into something that doesnt even fucking work all the time. thats just fucking great isnt it, imagine some bug with the spider mines. hey terrans guess what, heres a fun fact, now u all can spend money and time researching spider mine research but the problem is that sometimes they pop up and get STUCK and dont attack, or they dont do damage when they blow up. gee what a fucking big uproar that would cause huh. or hey heres a newsflash, now the siege tank with a range of 12 will sometimes not fire on the enemy at some angles making it a FUCKING MELEE FUCKING UNIT. so the money and time u spent on siege is just WASTED.
I used to love the reaver but then I kept losing 30% of the games wehre I go reaver cuz they just cost so fucking much and then they have the accuracy of a damn punk who just snorted 15 grams of cocain and 10 grams of meth. now I just avoid the reaver all out.
the thing is that all the terrans and zergs have gotten used to the idea that the reaver can "miss" and not hit and take it for granted, so that when we toss players wana change and take this away from them they go "hey wtf I was feeling so fuzzy and warm and safe wtf are u doing dont take this away..." fact of the matter is that the reaver bug is not there to make in balanced, it IS a fucking imbalance.
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EPT
