On September 05 2013 08:43 CardinalAllin wrote: For your go to 6 hatch style, I really recommend getting scourge, hydras and then lurkers while on lair, and going hive after the 8th hatchery. I recommend not getting mutas, and not doing the million scourge style.
The average pattern Ive put together from watching progames is:
overpool 3 hat spire 4th and 5th hatchery 6th hatchery hydra den and evo 2nd gas 3rd gas 7th and 8th hatcheries 4th gas 2nd evo queens nest hive 3rd evo defiler mound nydus 9th 10th and 11th hatcheries
Once you have hive you want to be making cracklings, defilers and be very lurker heavy. A few hydra, scourge and overlord support this lurker heavy army. I recommend having 11 hatcheries on 4 base and STAYING on 4 base for quite a while. This is the stage where you finally convert all your defensive management into offense and start directly damaging the enemy. Direct damage is not dealt to his army quite yet though, its done with mini 2 lurker drops to mineral lines, and with crackling defiler snipes on new expansions. This backstab style is low risk and high success. Its best to wait for plague and more units before engaging the enemy army directly. The protoss army is pretty much at its strongest relative to yours at this point, and a protoss at this point would much rather lose some units rather than lose his new bases as they come online. If you do the back stab style and fail, you have only lost a few lings and a few lurkers. But if you fight in a head to head with your army and lose, there is a chance he will break one of your sunken colony frontlines which is much more precarious.
So, you are on 4 base and defilers are out, your main army is still split into two but it is now spilling out of your naturals quite far. Your lurkers are spread out so that no two can be stormed at once. You have roughly half the map under your control but you are still a little closer to the corners than you are to the halfway line. Scourge are covering your air paths. The absolutely ideal outcome is that your mini 2 lurker drops shutdown mining at 2 bases for quite a while, your cracklings manage to raze an expo completely, and the enemy chooses to commit to a futile counter, right into your prepared lurker and dark swarm front lines. If so, you are miles ahead and can win by staying on 4 base no problem.
Regardless of how successful your hive backstab attacks went, dont be tempted to take a 5th and 6th base too early. You have drones spread out over 4 relatively fresh bases (cus you took them so fast), and you can power off that for some time still. You cant saturate more than 4 bases cus then you will have too many drones and your army is too small. You don’t get extra cash by spreading out your drones over 6 bases than over 4, and if you do, then you probably have too many drones. You have a much bigger area to defend once on 6 bases, and if you expand to 6 bases before having a large army first, 2 things happen; Drops become an unmanageable risk, its shocking how many drones can be killed by a speed shuttle and 4 hts when there are too many areas to defend, The enemy army can easily attack the 5th and 6th base (cus of map architecture and cus of static defense) and therefore has a high chance of trapping a number of your drones and killing them (again cus of architecture). This situation is high risk and low success for the zerg. You either have a bunch of dead drones, or you manage to run them home in time but they are not mining for all this period, they are just running back and forth being useless. Its much better to just keep them at home on 4 base and let them work at a guaranteed rate.
Note they will most likey have a dt waiting at your 5th and 6th base, so you have to clear them out with some hydra and an overlord before sending a drone. Also, dont be tempted to make loads of ultralisks, if any at all. Its best to only have a handful at any one time. Lastly, dont necessarily drop lurkers straight away. Be aware that if your mini 2 lurker drops and/or crackling snipes are successful, that this can cause the enemy to immediately commit to a counter attack. Therefore, make sure you have prepared your frontlines properly (spread out lurker fields, and defiler ready to cast) before initiating this decision point.
what is the timing for your ovie upgrades so you can start dropping? how soon do you start working on it? do you wait until hive to do everything? I would imagine you get your speed around lair tech. then once you get hive you put down defiler and get glands. Is this the point where you get transport? thanks
On November 12 2013 14:57 Golgotha wrote: Ms. Ninazerg,
In your build orders you place the den and evo right after the 5th or 6th hatch. I agree with placing them right away to get hydras up asap in case you need them. However, I have seen some players delay getting the den and evo for a long time, even once the 6th hatch is down. Can you tell me what they are waiting for and why they do this? Also, why do some players get one hatch at 27, instead of getting two around the 35 supply mark? Is there a reason behind this difference in build order? Thanks!
I think the main reason why sometimes they delay their den and evolv is because they want to make sure what protoss is doing by scouting with scourges, regarding what they scout they might go for muta.
It's just my guess coze I don't see any other reason, or maybe just to have more drones.
On September 11 2013 11:45 Megaliskuu wrote: Plz excuse the noob question, but what should you do when the toss pylon blocks your 12 hatch? Do you just 12 pool? Back when I played bw alot i always overpooled cuz I was too scared to hatch first.
If you want to 12 hatch you need to use your 1st overlord to scout outside your natural so you can see their scouting probe coming. If you see the probe come before your 12 hatch is down you have 2 choices: A) 11 pool (or 12 if you already made 12th drone, but really 11 is better and if they scout you 1st you should see probe before 12th drone anyway) B) Hide a drone near your ramp out of vision of the probe coming in and sneak it out behind to take 12 hatch.
11 pool is much safer because if you sneak a drone around you probably won't make the hatch until 350 minerals or more. This makes you vulnerable a little bit vulnerable to 2 gates since your sunken(s) won't quite be in time. Also some toss will just sit in your natural to block the hatch without even going in once they see your overlord. Be safe = 11 pool.
Another thing, always send your 2nd overlord to your natural when you 12 hatch to check for cannon rush.
On November 12 2013 14:57 Golgotha wrote: Ms. Ninazerg,
In your build orders you place the den and evo right after the 5th or 6th hatch. I agree with placing them right away to get hydras up asap in case you need them. However, I have seen some players delay getting the den and evo for a long time, even once the 6th hatch is down. Can you tell me what they are waiting for and why they do this? Also, why do some players get one hatch at 27, instead of getting two around the 35 supply mark? Is there a reason behind this difference in build order? Thanks!
I think the main reason why sometimes they delay their den and evolv is because they want to make sure what protoss is doing by scouting with scourges, regarding what they scout they might go for muta.
It's just my guess coze I don't see any other reason, or maybe just to have more drones.
yeah you are right, they did wait until they got a good scout before choosing a tech path. Thanks.
@nina Is there a modern ZvT guide like your ZvP guide that you studied from? This guide is very up to date and relevant to what I see now in ZvP, is there such a guide for ZvT?
On November 17 2013 07:57 Moonsalt wrote: You definitely thought about everything in this guide 10/10
Thanks, but there is a lot that is missing.
On November 13 2013 14:48 Golgotha wrote: Is there a modern ZvT guide like your ZvP guide that you studied from? This guide is very up to date and relevant to what I see now in ZvP, is there such a guide for ZvT?
I know there is a lot of ZvT information out there, but I'm not sure if it is all up-to-date or easy to find. You have probably seen Pauline's video on ZvT:
When going for quick lurker on 5 hatch or 6 hatch, how important is it to get air carapace? Is it more important than overlord speed? I read your guide and it suggests I get both. Why is it crucial? Thanks!
When playing lurker style, is it true that we are weak to +1 zealot timing attacks? How can we stay alive from this before our lurkers our out? Also, the guide doesn't say anything about making extra lings against zealot scouts that come out during the transition from early to mid game. If I do make lings, would you push the build order back (ex: make our 4th and 5th hatch at 35 and 38?). How many lings would you suggest?
edit:
okay never mind. going lurkers helps with defense a lot but im just a sitting duck while toss takes expos since I am not going for hydras to pressure. im going to take another look at 6 hatch hydra.
On November 20 2013 02:37 Golgotha wrote: When going for quick lurker on 5 hatch or 6 hatch, how important is it to get air carapace? Is it more important than overlord speed? I read your guide and it suggests I get both. Why is it crucial? Thanks!
When playing lurker style, is it true that we are weak to +1 zealot timing attacks? How can we stay alive from this before our lurkers our out? Also, the guide doesn't say anything about making extra lings against zealot scouts that come out during the transition from early to mid game. If I do make lings, would you push the build order back (ex: make our 4th and 5th hatch at 35 and 38?). How many lings would you suggest?
I used to lose alot of zvp being aggressive with hydras before lurkers came out if he was going for lots of speedlots. I think just being more careful is important against speedlots. Hydras massacre them if you're fighting with your own walling buildings, and your sunkens, cause the choke really hurts melee units. But you have to be careful because if he has 2 HTs you can die really easily.
EDIT: oh, I think most pros add zerglings about when their spire starts? That's what I do, and I think i do it cause by.hero does it!
On November 20 2013 02:37 Golgotha wrote: When going for quick lurker on 5 hatch or 6 hatch, how important is it to get air carapace? Is it more important than overlord speed? I read your guide and it suggests I get both. Why is it crucial? Thanks!
When playing lurker style, is it true that we are weak to +1 zealot timing attacks? How can we stay alive from this before our lurkers our out? Also, the guide doesn't say anything about making extra lings against zealot scouts that come out during the transition from early to mid game. If I do make lings, would you push the build order back (ex: make our 4th and 5th hatch at 35 and 38?). How many lings would you suggest?
I used to lose alot of zvp being aggressive with hydras before lurkers came out if he was going for lots of speedlots. I think just being more careful is important against speedlots. Hydras massacre them if you're fighting with your own walling buildings, and your sunkens, cause the choke really hurts melee units. But you have to be careful because if he has 2 HTs you can die really easily.
EDIT: oh, I think most pros add zerglings about when their spire starts? That's what I do, and I think i do it cause by.hero does it!
thanks man! got any replays you can show me? I just played a ZvP and it sucked. my econ takes such a big hit when im having to place down 6 sunkens and 2 spores. but it feels like I have to do this just to survive.
On November 20 2013 02:37 Golgotha wrote: When going for quick lurker on 5 hatch or 6 hatch, how important is it to get air carapace? Is it more important than overlord speed? I read your guide and it suggests I get both. Why is it crucial? Thanks!
When playing lurker style, is it true that we are weak to +1 zealot timing attacks? How can we stay alive from this before our lurkers our out? Also, the guide doesn't say anything about making extra lings against zealot scouts that come out during the transition from early to mid game. If I do make lings, would you push the build order back (ex: make our 4th and 5th hatch at 35 and 38?). How many lings would you suggest?
I used to lose alot of zvp being aggressive with hydras before lurkers came out if he was going for lots of speedlots. I think just being more careful is important against speedlots. Hydras massacre them if you're fighting with your own walling buildings, and your sunkens, cause the choke really hurts melee units. But you have to be careful because if he has 2 HTs you can die really easily.
EDIT: oh, I think most pros add zerglings about when their spire starts? That's what I do, and I think i do it cause by.hero does it!
thanks man! got any replays you can show me? I just played a ZvP and it sucked. my econ takes such a big hit when im having to place down 6 sunkens and 2 spores. but it feels like I have to do this just to survive.
you shouldn't need all that. Unless it's a speedling build (I mean, a non-stargate build) then you should never really need more than 2 per base and you definitely don't need the spores!
When do you start hydra production? You want to meet his army with hydras, and only build sunkens if he's being very agressive, in which case his templar and corsair counts should be lower than usual. I find that my +1 range attack and my second hydra upgrade (range) finish about the same time, and I have about 2 groups of hydras then.
obviously this is only D+ level advice (don't let my current c- rank fool you, I'll lose that tomorrow!) but it works for me mostly.
On November 20 2013 02:37 Golgotha wrote: When going for quick lurker on 5 hatch or 6 hatch, how important is it to get air carapace? Is it more important than overlord speed? I read your guide and it suggests I get both. Why is it crucial? Thanks!
When playing lurker style, is it true that we are weak to +1 zealot timing attacks? How can we stay alive from this before our lurkers our out? Also, the guide doesn't say anything about making extra lings against zealot scouts that come out during the transition from early to mid game. If I do make lings, would you push the build order back (ex: make our 4th and 5th hatch at 35 and 38?). How many lings would you suggest?
I used to lose alot of zvp being aggressive with hydras before lurkers came out if he was going for lots of speedlots. I think just being more careful is important against speedlots. Hydras massacre them if you're fighting with your own walling buildings, and your sunkens, cause the choke really hurts melee units. But you have to be careful because if he has 2 HTs you can die really easily.
EDIT: oh, I think most pros add zerglings about when their spire starts? That's what I do, and I think i do it cause by.hero does it!
thanks man! got any replays you can show me? I just played a ZvP and it sucked. my econ takes such a big hit when im having to place down 6 sunkens and 2 spores. but it feels like I have to do this just to survive.
you shouldn't need all that. Unless it's a speedling build (I mean, a non-stargate build) then you should never really need more than 2 per base and you definitely don't need the spores!
When do you start hydra production? You want to meet his army with hydras, and only build sunkens if he's being very agressive, in which case his templar and corsair counts should be lower than usual. I find that my +1 range attack and my second hydra upgrade (range) finish about the same time, and I have about 2 groups of hydras then.
obviously this is only D+ level advice (don't let my current c- rank fool you, I'll lose that tomorrow!) but it works for me mostly.
hmm do you have any good examples of what you are talking about? Can you post a replay of some of your good games? I am D-D level so it would help tremendously.
edit:
in this game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWL8Q-8YQFY), bisu goes for 6 hatch hydra. + Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2013 20:31 Golgotha wrote: hey nina can you add a standard ZvP build against FE but instead of going hydra first, you go muta first? 6 hatch muta?
Actually, I've been meaning to add that for quite some time, but I've been putting it off for awhile. Mutalisks take a lot of multitasking to control, so it can make the opening a bit dicey.
In this game, Action opens 6-hatch mutalisk against Movie. Action has a bit of trouble with the timing, and almost dies to a very easy timing-attack by Movie and just barely lives. Action has to rebuild some mutalisks and uses them to occupy the archons/zealots long enough to rebuild his sunken colonies and begin building hydralisks. Why hydras? Well, because hydras are good against zealots, dragoons, corsairs and archons. Typically, Protoss players will respond to a mutalisk opening with a lot of corsairs, and build a mostly zealot/archon force to make it difficult for the mutas to do any damage. In this particular match, Movie leaves his corsairs at home while pressuring Action with zealots and archons. Action uses this opportunity to backstab into Movie's main base while the archons are absent. Using the scourge, he picks off the corsairs and then kills the lone cannon in Movie's base. Movie looks for an opportunity to counter-attack, but sees a lot of hydras at Action's third base, and having no storms with that army, decides it is too risky to attack into Action's third. Movie pulls back, and the mutalisks are forced to leave, but by this time, Action has nearly 40 hydralisks moving down the map. Keep in mind, though, that this is a very aggressive play on Action's part; he has less drones than perhaps he would like, but has a considerable army. His plan is to use the mutalisks to snipe high templar and use the absence of storms to keep his hydras in a ball, where they will do the maximum amount of damage.
Action barely wins the engagement, and ends up trading armies with Movie. Normally, this would be all right if Action had the economy to regenerate his forces, but he has very few drones. A well-placed lurker denies Movie some mining time, but Movie is able to recuperate his forces and push forward again, and this time, Action's army isn't nearly large to deal with the pressure, allowing Movie to push Action off the map and take another expansion. At this point, Movie's main advantage is a large army, but his weakness is that his bases are nearly out of money. Action manages to maneuver his army around Movie's forces and kill one expansion, then the other. At this point, Movie is simply unable to continue producing enough units to keep up with Action, and Action grabs all his units and engages Movie's army again. The battle ends favorably for Action, but even an army trade would have paid off for him. Movie ggs.
In this game, Action has absolutely awe-inspiring unit-control, map awareness, and multitasking. I guess a good point to make here is that it wasn't his opening that won the game per se, but his decisions overall throughout the game.
Thank you for the video and I hope to see your 3 hatch spire into 6 hatch muta build soon ^^
Im guessing the build will delay evo and chamber for a bit (put them down after the mutas pop), but have 2 sunks at each base. Or would you still put the den down and evo down asap for the wall (just delay getting the upgrades)? I can see how if your timing of the mutas, lings, and sunkens are not right you will die simply die to the zeal rush. usually the enemy toss attacks the earliest as your sunks, den, and evo are placed. Can you really get enough mutas and lings by then to stop this push?
If it is not economical to get mutas that quickly, do you just play with lings and sunkens until your mutas arrive?
As you can see, I am not sure what the order is and what is the best route with a muta first into hydra build.
Yo Nina, I have a specific question. When doing the 5-6 Hatch hydra build, you recommend pumping hydras when your supply hits around 50. I am assuming this is because you want to make sure you have enough drones to maximize hydra production off 6 hatches. In regards to this, could you be more specific and tell us the exact number of drones we should at least have before we start going hydra crazy? Thanks!
50 supply milestone has been working great for me, but I want to be exact and know more about this game. Because sometimes I am forced to make extra lings and that kinda messes with the drone and supply count in my head.
On November 23 2013 00:52 Golgotha wrote: Yo Nina, I have a specific question. When doing the 5-6 Hatch hydra build, you recommend pumping hydras when your supply hits around 50. I am assuming this is because you want to make sure you have enough drones to maximize hydra production off 6 hatches. In regards to this, could you be more specific and tell us the exact number of drones we should at least have before we start going hydra crazy? Thanks!
50 supply milestone has been working great for me, but I want to be exact and know more about this game. Because sometimes I am forced to make extra lings and that kinda messes with the drone and supply count in my head.
I'm pretty sure I put this in the guide, but in case I didn't: the number of drones you'll produce depends on how many hatcheries you're going to building from. Let's say you play 10 games and notice that you constantly find yourself with too few units when you start pumping hydras. You can make many adjustments, but the easiest one is to pump drones out of one hatchery, and pump hydras out of the rest of them. Normally, my 4th base is undersaturated @ 50 pop, so I just continue making drones there until it feels right, and produce hydras everywhere else. Another adjustment you can make is to recognize how many zerglings are necessary. If you have difficulty with timing attacks, I would just say make zerglings until the timing attack has been quelled, but if you get a bit more experience, you'll see that with two sunken colonies and 12 lings, you can hold off a lot of zealots.
If you feel like you're behind because of some kind of raid, like you get 8 overlords shot down or something or lose all your drones at a base to one DT, go lurkers and turtle up, then get a lot of drones, get your hive tech and all your upgrades so you can attack later on in the game.
I recently made some much-needed updates. I added about three builds to the guide, plus some additional clarification and explanations for certain situations and units, plus the usual grammar fixes.
Just read this guide for the first time, and blow my socks off - what a read! Seriously, if you follow this guide you will probably hit A rank in a month.
Hi Nina, cool guide. I've been going well in ZvP if I survivce, just trouble with lategame and I figure defilers/hive need to come out sooner for me to break them. But, that's another story!
build. I've found that killing off corsairs much more easily would be such a relief, so I've been meaning to learn how to play a proper spire build. From what I knew when I was still active, it was the thing to go 5 hatch hydra after getting your lair on 3 hatches. Why's 6 hatch more popular now? What's made 5 hatch outdated. Kind of curious!
Why are these 2 player/4 player map builds specific to each map? Seems peculiar, but then again I'm shit. Thinking I'll learn 6 hatch hydra and just bust it out every game - but it's not really a problem when you're only playing FS! Speaking of which, if I'm going to be a dirty nerd that just busts out one stupid over the top macro build, like before, but wanted something with a spire, on FS - what would you recommend in particular just to repeat every single fucking game?
EPT
Action opens 6-hatch mutalisk against 
Movie. Action has a bit of trouble with the timing, and almost dies to a very easy timing-attack by Movie and just barely lives. Action has to rebuild some mutalisks and uses them to occupy the archons/zealots long enough to rebuild his sunken colonies and begin building hydralisks. Why hydras? Well, because hydras are good against zealots, dragoons, corsairs and archons. Typically, Protoss players will respond to a mutalisk opening with a lot of corsairs, and build a mostly zealot/archon force to make it difficult for the mutas to do any damage. In this particular match, Movie leaves his corsairs at home while pressuring Action with zealots and archons. Action uses this opportunity to backstab into Movie's main base while the archons are absent. Using the scourge, he picks off the corsairs and then kills the lone cannon in Movie's base. Movie looks for an opportunity to counter-attack, but sees a lot of hydras at Action's third base, and having no storms with that army, decides it is too risky to attack into Action's third. Movie pulls back, and the mutalisks are forced to leave, but by this time, Action has nearly 40 hydralisks moving down the map. Keep in mind, though, that this is a very aggressive play on Action's part; he has less drones than perhaps he would like, but has a considerable army. His plan is to use the mutalisks to snipe high templar and use the absence of storms to keep his hydras in a ball, where they will do the maximum amount of damage.
