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[G] ZvP BroodWar Guide - Page 6
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
Cheers! | ||
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pebble444
Italy2495 Posts
now, if only it was about terran or protoss | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
I used to plop down an extractor, and when it finished, I'd just grab three drones and throw them at it. Since only one drone can enter the extractor at a time, this is a bit inefficient. Generally, in the early game, you'll have very few drones, and the little things matter. So realistically, you can do a 14 extractor, and 13 hatch for your third. You should have all your larvae morphing into drones, and if you're not, then you may as well uninstall SC and play CoD:MW3, you stupid noob. When you hit 14 population, the first drone to hatch at 14 should make the extractor. Then put down | ||
Harem
United States11390 Posts
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
To be honest, the extent of my practice so far has been trying to execute a perfect 3 hatch hydra bust against Protoss on Python. A pretty limited scope to be sure, but I do think it's improving my fundamentals nonetheless. After reading this guide I feel a lot more confident that I will be able to branch out into a more macro style of play soon. So seriously thank you!!! The guide is excellent, and Brood War is unquestionably the most beautiful game of all time. Edit: The fuck, I think I commented on this guide already a few years ago. Weird... hopefully it'll stick more this time haha | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
I mean, of course, the 9hatch speedling allin. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On April 08 2017 03:31 Ty2 wrote: I'd recommend the savior analysis guide too for beginners. I have that linked, and have the build order in the OP. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
When do you get your first evo chamber and carapace upgrade? The zvp guides on Liquipedia are inconsistent. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Base_Spire_into_5_Hatch_Hydra_(vs._Protoss) says not to get evo chambers until pretty late in the game (110 supply) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss) says to start building one as soon as your first extractor is done, and research carapace before lair even. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/5_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss) doesn't mention evo chambers or +1 upgrades at all. Am I supposed to feel it out, and try to get carapace early only if the protoss is going +1 speedlots and I won't have mutas/lurkers? or is this something that different players do differently? | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On July 03 2017 10:35 Luddite wrote: Hi! Semi-necro here, but more people might want to see this thread and I have a question that I didn't see addressed anywhere. When do you get your first evo chamber and carapace upgrade? The zvp guides on Liquipedia are inconsistent. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Base_Spire_into_5_Hatch_Hydra_(vs._Protoss) says not to get evo chambers until pretty late in the game (110 supply) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss) says to start building one as soon as your first extractor is done, and research carapace before lair even. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/5_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss) doesn't mention evo chambers or +1 upgrades at all. Am I supposed to feel it out, and try to get carapace early only if the protoss is going +1 speedlots and I won't have mutas/lurkers? or is this something that different players do differently? In the first link it says you should get an evo chamber when your hydra den is 100% complete. For the third link LRM)Noone wrote a TL guide that specifies when to get evolution chambers. Here's his quote on upgrades: "I add on two evolution chambers as soon as I feel safe in the midgame. I get +1 Missile and +1 Carapace, then +1 Melee and +2 Carapace." As for your main question, I think what you're asking entails a common mistake beginners have. A lot of beginner's search for a very specific, concrete, one dimensional answer for broad questions. The reality is, there are very few shoulds in Brood War and no one size fits all cases. With the immense breadth of strategy of Brood War comes a large array of builds. Take for example a player like Mondragon, who was notable for his unique, extremely fast +1 carapace build because with zealots taking 3 hits to kill a zergling instead of 2, Mondragon could orient a lot of his play around zerglings being relevant and efficient throughout the entirety of the game as his playstyle choice. That doesn't necessarily mean that zergs should always get an extremely fast +1 carapace though, that's simply stylistic difference. Other zergs focus on getting carapace some time after +1 protoss weapons is researched, so when that +1 carapace kicks in, there'll be a timing window where zerglings will have the same carapace level as protoss weapons for a brief period of time before a protoss' +2 or +3 completes. They don't get it as fast as Mondragon though because they may want to prioritize having a slightly better economy by getting more hatcheries early and/or higher tech (as is the case of 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra). Some Zerg's go for a fast range upgrade to coincide with aggressive Hydra attacks. Some Zergs omit upgrades for a long time such as LRM)Noone, whose guide for the 5 hatch before gas you mentioned, to prioritize his resources on several fast hatcheries for a high drone and unit count, lair, and lurkers. In addition, Zergs adapt their upgrade style according to what build Protoss goes. Some examples could include a Protoss getting a really fast +1 weapons. Perhaps Zerg wants to emphasize having a carapace quick enough as a central part of their play, so that their +1 carapace is active some time before +2 protoss weapons finishes. With that in mind, Zerg throws up an evolution chamber very quickly. In other cases a Protoss' +1 is very late, maybe because they put their early gas into DT's, reavers, or 2 stargate corsairs. In that case, Zerg could decide to get a later carapace as they don't need the carapace so early and may need to attribute resources to deal w/ the high gas units Protoss is throwing at them.. Other times, maybe it's somewhere in between. For your question a "should" does not apply, for there are multiple stylistic choices a Zerg can make. They make the evolution chamber at times that apply to what the Protoss is doing. I hope that helped. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
One thing jumped out at me- you make it sound like the normal state of affairs is for Protoss to be ahead of zerg on upgrades. Is that true? It's a little surprising, since the evo chamber is cheaper than a forge, and zerg upgrades research faster. I guess carapace is more expensive than Protoss weapons (150 vs 100). Still, I would have thought zerg could usually at least match Protoss in upgrades. But from what you said, that's only the case in unusual builds like what Mondragon did, or at specific timings that you have to anticipate and plan around. Is that basically right? | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On July 03 2017 13:11 Luddite wrote: Thanks for the lengthy answer Ty2. It helps, although I was kinda hoping there'd be a more simple answer that I can just memorize. It seems like ZvP is a lot more open and unstructured than ZvT, so I'm having trouble learning it. "Whenever you feel safe" seems to be the timing for a lot of things (4 base, give, upgrades, etc). One thing jumped out at me- you make it sound like the normal state of affairs is for Protoss to be ahead of zerg on upgrades. Is that true? It's a little surprising, since the evo chamber is cheaper than a forge, and zerg upgrades research faster. I guess carapace is more expensive than Protoss weapons (150 vs 100). Still, I would have thought zerg could usually at least match Protoss in upgrades. But from what you said, that's only the case in unusual builds like what Mondragon did, or at specific timings that you have to anticipate and plan around. Is that basically right? Yah, it's common for Protoss to have faster upgrades. Also, the upgrades for the evo chamber and forge finish at the exact same time. I looked on liquipedia which was contrary, but it's most certainly wrong as I tested the speeds myself in-game. I think matching upgrades is a fine idea that you can pursue in your creative endeavors. There's a common strategy of using an evo chamber for a spore colony to deflect corsairs, and later use it for fast upgrades. For the most part, it is uncommon. I was prepping for some real game examples from the savior analysis guide to show you what I was talking about between responses versus a slower +1 weapons for 2 stargate corsair and a slghtly faster +1 weapons for speedlot/corsair. When I was testing it out though i saw that the completion of the evo chamber was virtually the same. The only real differences before getting evo chamber I saw was versus the +1 weapons for speedlot savior made 2 sunken colonies at each natural (4 in total) for the speedlots. Versus fast 2 stargate corsair he made a hydra den, hydra speed, no sunken colonies (naturally, because there's no ground army). They both pretty much had an equal amount of spending. So in the end I learned that there isn't always a real difference in upgrade timing depending on the protoss build. In this case Savior just stuck to the same evo timing. I think taking a bigger look at my own games I realize I seem to always stick to the same evo timing similar to savior, or just as money allows, the whole "safeness" idea, so I think you were right. From there I just play the game out and take advantage of my carapace timing windows as they fit or more or less play defensive disregarding them for the most part until I get +3 carapace to take engagements. I think in addition to this idea of safeness, I think one feels safe when their primary goals are reached in their build. For LRM)Noone's build, the goals are to set up those 5 hatches and a lurker contain with an impressive number of lurkers. For 3 base spire, 5 hatch hydra, it's when you get those 5 hatches and hydra den up. I've been rambling on for a bit. I don't want to risk giving too much info that makes your thoughts into open ended, spider-like tributaries , so I'll keep my take away simple. The stylistic differences remain, between the extremes of Mondragon's fast upgrades, LRM)Noone's slow double upgrades, and the more common middle of the road 3 base spire 5 hatch upgrades. However, the Protoss' build doesn't always have a zerg adapt his evolution chamber timing as much as I thought. I'm sure there are exceptions, but again, that's the open endedness afforded by a strategy game. I'd suggest just trying out an evo chamber timing, sticking with it, and seeing how you like it. You can also look at a progamer's style of play you like, watch lots of games of him and pay attention to his upgrade timings. I feel that's what really helps new players get a feel for the ebb and flow of a matchup. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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