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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On November 11 2005 11:38 Liquid`Drone wrote:
tvr is pretty hard if you choose to followup with fast factory or starport or any build like that instead of a fast engineering bay which is the proper thing to do. (or just temporarily pulling scvs off gas and doing a fast expand. that's not bad either actually. ) starport sucks against any random player though because that's what he will be used to facing from terran players. gassing is definitely the right thing to do here tho cause otherwise you lose tvp or tvt most of the time.
and unless you are playing a map/location where you can make a lingproof block with either 1 rax+depot or 1 rax, do not wallin.
likewise if you pvr and he's zerg, for the love of god do not go starport. any player who is used to random z vs p will rape you then. I think you should 2 gate vs random personally which screws you a bit vs terran but less than gassing does vs zerg. I know you didn't ask about this but I still mention it cause there was a discussion.
and just to mention it, with z vs random you should 12pool which doesn't REALLY set you back in any matchup as long as you followup correctly.
gassing vs zerg doesnt screw you up and playing 2 gate vs terran is really bad.
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Norway28736 Posts
honestly, if I random zerg and protoss gassed and the map is like, luna, temple or anything similar, I instantly think "I win" because unless I severly fuck up, I always win. and that's regardless of opponent. I have lost tvp against 2 gate opening though. (even though it being something I encounter far, far less often. ) this is also related to me being a lot better zvp than tvp, but I really don't ever see the best nonkorean zergs lose against fast gas unless they fuck up or the map is not similar to luna/temple/whatever.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
luna is very different in this case since u need 3 zealots to block the ramp & the terran cant wallin.. that makes teching worse in pvz and 2 gating much better in pvt :p
tech builds are very much viable in pvz.. I think that if the terran is used to playing vs protoss 2 gating there are some strategies that are very hard for the protoss to handle, if the map is like temple where the t can both easily wallin and there is a cliff at the nat starport builds become very strong (both tank drop and vulture drop). the only time you actually end up with a big disadvantage from teching vs random is if he gets random zerg and u scout him last positon and he's rushing..
I dont really know what to say about " I really don't ever see the best nonkorean zergs lose against fast gas unless they fuck up" .. I guess non-korean protosses are just that bad at pvz? :p
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On November 12 2005 11:20 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
luna is very different in this case since u need 3 zealots to block the ramp & the terran cant wallin.. that makes teching worse in pvz and 2 gating much better in pvt :p
tech builds are very much viable in pvz.. I think that if the terran is used to playing vs protoss 2 gating there are some strategies that are very hard for the protoss to handle, if the map is like temple where the t can both easily wallin and there is a cliff at the nat starport builds become very strong (both tank drop and vulture drop). the only time you actually end up with a big disadvantage from teching vs random is if he gets random zerg and u scout him last positon and he's rushing..
I dont really know what to say about " I really don't ever see the best nonkorean zergs lose against fast gas unless they fuck up" .. I guess non-korean protosses are just that bad at pvz? :p
Luna ramps can be blocked with two zealots if you place them right.....
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Even if you can block with 2 zeals vs. lings on Twilight, the ramp is wide enough for say 3 lings to hit a zeal at a time with that configuration, leading to ramp break and screwage.
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use some probes and pray his micro sucks (ramp holding)
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Norway28736 Posts
fast gas doesn't always have to suck vs z, but the by far most common pvrz opening is fast sair, and it makes me so happy because I really don't lose against it, at least not on most maps. (yet it's very common on temple and pretty common on luna too)
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
isnt it then fast-sair that in your opinion is bad pvz and not the actual teching ? :p
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Norway28736 Posts
well it doesn't always have to suck but only in certain scenarios against certain players. my opinion is slightly scewered because fast gas is what I'm used to facing, thus I'm way better against that than against 2gate, but it's gotta be something really cool AND I have to fuck up for me to lose against fast gas.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
when you say lose against fast gas do u mean the entire game or losing to the early game strategy? not losing to/getting damaged the early game strategy ok but with games with teching usually goes into mid/late game more often so assuming u're playing good enough ppl I dont understand how the end game can be different..
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Norway28736 Posts
I mean the entire game because I always get such a large advantage from the early/early midgame phase of the game. and yes, I am saying that I only lose random z vs p when p goes fast gas if I fuck up hard at one point of the game. but the rare occasions where p goes 2 gate, im often in trouble. I also lose picked zvp (if a friend needs to practice pvz, I pick) pretty often, because then I have to face 2gate.
but random zvp where p goes gas first is not something I lose on most maps.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
I guess u're just very good at playing vs tech then cause I think they are very much viable and I've seen high level players do well with them aswell.. also I think going fast gas vs random allows you to have more options in all 3 matchups.
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fast sairs on luna?? lol thats like giving the game to the zerg t.t
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drone haven't you also said that playing TvP against tosses that go 2-gate you never lose unless you fuck up on marine/scv control?
and also aren't you screwed pvt if you 2-gate and they wall on a wallable map (LT)
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
I've actually tried 2 gating vs random and I know how much it sets me back :p especially on maps with a cliff.. u get really late robo playing 2 gate before gas..
and I can agree that 2 gating vs random is strong because people dont counter it properly since they arent used to playing vs it but that doesnt make it a stronger play if u look at it without considering if people know how to play against it or not (at high levels I would expect people to know how to play against it tho? :/).
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Norway28736 Posts
sure people know how to play against it, it's just that every random zerg opens anti-gas. the two most common openings for random zerg is 9pool or fast expand. both rape fast gas, and 2gate is good against both.
I guess if you know the strenght of your random opponent you can choose to play anti terran or anti zerg depending on what he's best at.
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maybe slightly off topic, but is there some mech build guide for T vs Z 
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United States5262 Posts
Bump. I didn't want to create a new topic, but I did have a relevant question to the opening play as Terran vs a random player.
When do you send your scout? I have a feeling that if a random player receives P, he might pull off a proxy build in the center of the map and will do his best efforts to hinder a wall-in. I remember watching Reach vs Testie wayyy back at a BWWI or a BlizzCon event and he scouted REALLY early. Reach is a toss player though and needs to know if he's playing Zerg or not.
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on a 4 player map i send my scv out at 8
its probably pretty bad but whatever it works for me 75% of the time (lucky ;-d)
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EPT
