Ok, I know there is a topic about TvP luna with some discussion, and I will let this one die pretty fast, Grot.
Now with everybody playing pgt and Luna being the new temple (motw) I have played an awfull lot of tosses. Granted my TvP is not world-class, but most of the people I lose to on luna I can beat on most other maps. So far I've narrowed the strat choices down to this:
- 2 fac vultures. Works versus dt, not vs gate - robo, okai versus 2 gate goon where I can set up a quick push after planting an ocean of mines.
- Joyo push. Works great versus fast expanders and gate - robo, not good versus 2 gate.
- Fast expand. I can slow push thru the mineral only if positions are not cross-mapped, but I have to harass like a madman to even get the fight even.
How are you all doing and what are you doing? So far I'm like 2-4683432 TvP on luna. (funny I'm 3-0 TvZ and win rec tvt).
most of the times i usually open with 1fax 1 tank 1vult2 -3 scv's and a few marines and go towards the toss base just to make him worry then i plant a few mines and get a fast expo.
also joyo push works miracles versus most tossers who seem to prefer lately the idea of a fast expo. it's like instant gg if he fast expos
Meh, make 2 marines before factory, get 5 marines total. Move out with 5 marines (this way you can scare off his initial 2 goons before they get range), then send tank and the vulture will come soon after to mine your front.
Then you expo (or if you got all the way to his front, mine outside his base with either the first or second vulture).
If he is backing up his ramp GET A BUNKER. Because he's most likely got obs coming.
Or a reaver or dt drop but yeah, those are rare and if you use scv scout then send 2 new ones (stacked by going to a mineral with them and going to his minerals yeah etc).
you guys seem to be focusing on early/mid game...but i think _more_ essential is just trying to secure 3 bases and going from there. imo there are two ways to win tvp on luna - early/mid game (1 or 2 base) is probably only won by a very very good strat counter and/or some decent to good vult harass (luna is very very good for vults), and/or timing a good push. the second way is by 3 basing and winning by pure macro/upgrades/slowpush, roughly 150-200psi. the second way seems to be more reliable for players with lesser scouting skills and gameflow intuition.
my advice for tvp luna has always been to try to win with 3+ bases. winning with 2 takes some tremendous skill, and winning with 1 is pure luck or cheese =P. or the p just really isnt very good..
Fast expo seems strong on Luna. I've seen a lot of Terran's having success playing Tornado after 1-1 by bunkering with rines at nat and just massing. But yeah, you need to Nada style it and harass successfully.
Luna is big and turretless, ie. the bain of my tvp.
9 depot 11 rax 11 gas, marine when rax finishes, fact when 100gas, 16 depot is start build. if you are going to get 2nd fact build it after your 3rd marine it's really hard in general =[, i generally just 1 fac exp, then do the 5-6 fact from 2 bases, then take min only and add 2 armories and 3 more fact and hope that they suck
On September 01 2005 14:20 FroZZoR wrote: 9 depot 11 rax 11 gas, marine when rax finishes, fact when 100gas, 16 depot is start build. if you are going to get 2nd fact build it after your 3rd marine it's really hard in general =[, i generally just 1 fac exp, then do the 5-6 fact from 2 bases, then take min only and add 2 armories and 3 more fact and hope that they suck
Thats the build I've been using - exact, actually. I can very rarely power my way to a win, and often they get many bases.
I've been lucky tonight tho - 3 times cheesed by zealots, cannons and dt. Easy wins.
this is just a thought but maybe if luna is a hard map for you, don't do 2fac vults and instead gamble a little more? take a chance early to gain a crucial advantage
There are three maps that i hate and can't play them anymore without physical pain ;o LT,Nostalgia,Luna.I've played insane amout of games on them and know i hate them.
On September 01 2005 14:53 GroT wrote: this is just a thought but maybe if luna is a hard map for you, don't do 2fac vults and instead gamble a little more? take a chance early to gain a crucial advantage
Yea I've been able to secure wins thru all sorts of weird rushes and then bunkering / mining / sieging their ramps, but I can't rely on that to win:o
I'm using a start like this: 2 fact(with machine shop) - rush with 3 tanks - 3 marines and some vult; Exp add 5 fact without machine shop mass like a pig Go him or push as u wish. After play as a normal TvP
marine, fac, more marines, add on, mines, tank, vult.. move out with like 5 or 6 marines and go after his base. Reserach siege. If he tried anything stupid, you might get some damage in. (if he didn't, then he shouldn't have an obs out intime to kill the mines you lay as you retreat to your base, and by the time he does, siege will be up) Build a CC, build an engineering base, and then just 1 fac tanks / turret in smart places etc. It's probably pretty standard, but it used to work for me. once you get expo online, just halt scvs, get like 5 more fac at once, build more scvs, and when they're all ready, just macro like a mother fucker, get acadamy, and yeah yeah
What Whizkid said has worked well for me. I get my nat early, play it safe while I mass units and factories. Then I slowly push out securing more expos and mine up the entire fucking middle area, constantly laying out new mines everywhere to protect my tanks.
If you can get a firm hold of the middle you basicly have control of at least half the map and from there just mass like hell.
i go 1 factory expo i get mines first if they 2 gate instead of siege, then i just try to out mass them off 2 base or if i feel like i cant i turtle up and expo with vult harass
and in tvp its important to fast take 2nd nat. then push slowly if toss has storms, and if not u just can go him with all army (if 4 full hotkeys and toss hasnt storms or carriers he is pretty dead)
If P is decent, you won't have 3rd gas for a while but your min only is relatively easy to take. If you're cross-map (and this is very hard to quickpush against... basically, crossmap tvp on luna means long game), unless P fucks up early, just take your min only as quickly as possible. The reason for this is that 1) you can start pumpin MASS vults and ABUSE mines... i mean, just mine EVERYWHERE... i think a lot of T's just spread mines when they're pushing... i mean, mine everywhere... over n over again...they're free and there's no other effective way of keeping a tab on that huge middle ground...
2) it forces P to take another main because you now have 3 base and (assuming P has double expanded vs your first expo) P needs to catch up. Harass that shit w/vults. If he sends troops to defend it, harass his nat. If he defends both, advance your push as much as you can and possibly take another base, because his troops will be slightly out of position and will need a few crucial seconds to set up a flank (during which you abuse mines again and set up your push).
If you r playing a decent P, don't try to take the game too early. Luna is possibly the worst map ever for T becuase it limits its strategic possibilities in so many different ways. You can't wall, you must always start relatively safe. You cant utilize most rushes cuz the bases r so far (assuming P didnt start off risky). You cant quick push often because you cant turret and the middle ground is fucking huge with many bridges for flanking. SO just have a list of objectives and take each one carefully and securely. THe list of objectives usually goes (in no specific order, it depends on each game situation): taking your expo, taking additional expos, controlling his choke, controlling his bridge... yeah these are very basic concepts. But in Luna, you have to go back to fundamentals to win (strong macro/micro, setting up traps and diversions)
Actually, I've probably had the most trouble with PvT Luna this season (I'm so embarrassed...). They early exp, vulture harrass, 3rd exp, outmacro me. Yeah, I'm working on my macro. It's the vulture harrass that really kills me, though.
Otherwise, if you expand I'd just be really aware and try to prevent any expansions in a far away position ( if they take their nat and min only im happy) run a lot around with vultures and place some mines everywhere a bit in the evil huge plain in the middle, to see exactly what your odds are, from where he's flanking, just to see everything. Dont say its a waste of mines, cause you cant really use them all up around your push cause toss really can choose when to attack your push on luna and from where, so the mines really delay some parts of flanking, break attacks, make them come in lines and that sort of stuff, really try to get him off the ideal unit use they really seem to obtain easily on luna.
I wouldnt worry about carriers alot, but I would worry about arbiters, cause they are really strong on luna imo.
thats all the advice I can give you, I find tvp on luna hard myself, you can decide if its something you can use, eventhough I think you're a better terran than me
On September 02 2005 13:06 G5 wrote: luna tvp - all of the terrans either rush with mass marines / tank / vultures or fake rush and go expo. I have seen 0 exeptions of this as of lately.
I noticed this too.
I am considering going for tank drop on luna because no one seems to do it ever. I'll probably try if I can get some time to play tonight. could probably take out a lot of probes
On September 02 2005 13:06 G5 wrote: luna tvp - all of the terrans either rush with mass marines / tank / vultures or fake rush and go expo. I have seen 0 exeptions of this as of lately.
Well, that's not so strange since Luna really limits your options a T, in all mu. I got accused of beeing a puissy (that's how he spelled it) yesterday in a TvZ because I turtled a little bit after my early 5 rines 4 bats 3 medics rush against his sunken line failed. But really, you don't have much options and this applys especially to TvP I think.
On September 02 2005 13:06 G5 wrote: luna tvp - all of the terrans either rush with mass marines / tank / vultures or fake rush and go expo. I have seen 0 exeptions of this as of lately.
I noticed this too.
I am considering going for tank drop on luna because no one seems to do it ever. I'll probably try if I can get some time to play tonight. could probably take out a lot of probes
Going 1 fact tank drop would be suicide vs 2 gate goons.
On September 02 2005 21:12 Cambium wrote: I usually go 2 fact vultures then tanks and expand. Pretty standard...
how can you leave your base with only vultures vs 2 gate goons blocking you?
2 fac vultures usually applies when the protoss goes 2 gate zeal rush and ter players usually wait for the goons to head out for them to run in and knock out a good number of probes. A protoss who goes 2 gate zeal will obviously get range goons + observer pretty late, so 2 fac vultures + mine rely isnt such a bad choice against that. "TvP is about finding holes" - Assem
On September 02 2005 05:48 SF)CruiseR wrote: 2 fac vults, and 6rines tank + mines works pretty well. nada so easy killed me with these both strats on pgt
Don't go fact port on luna, its a possible build on lost temple becuase you can cliff his expo, on Luna he doesn't need observer to secure an expand, hence why the midas attack is so strong - it takes care of early vulnerability becuase you can't wall in, and you still get a comparable expo time while getting the valuable mine upgrade and apply pressure.
Joyo is also a good build as well.
2 fac vult is viable but not the best build on that map, if they cut their 14-16 probe to make a zealot you can be put under heavy pressure if you don't make a few marines and you have 1 marine 1 tank to defend their 2 goons 1 zeal range almost completed.
On September 02 2005 21:12 Cambium wrote: I usually go 2 fact vultures then tanks and expand. Pretty standard...
how can you leave your base with only vultures vs 2 gate goons blocking you?
2 fac vultures usually applies when the protoss goes 2 gate zeal rush and ter players usually wait for the goons to head out for them to run in and knock out a good number of probes. A protoss who goes 2 gate zeal will obviously get range goons + observer pretty late, so 2 fac vultures + mine rely isnt such a bad choice against that. "TvP is about finding holes" - Assem
I think you're missing something here man. Most tosses will 2 gate goon on Luna. Since terrans basically don't wall on Luna you can two gate zeal, but it would hardly be considered standard. That having been said, the same question still applies. Anyone who knows what they're talking about care to answer?...because that certainly isn't me.
Most P's tend to have an aggressive build on that map like 2gate//range or 2 gate//zeal, so as far as builds go, 1fact//expo works well since most toss don't get robotics very fast on this map. I always wait until I have a bunch of marines, a tank, 1 vulture and have spider mine researching and defend my choke to expo safely. 2 fact//vult is riskier since you have to have a couple marines defending choke which slows down the 2nd factory. Any type of 2fact//push seems like the only other good alternative to 1 fact//expo. It's riskier though because it's not very strong vs 2 gate builds, which are common on this map, so most times it may be best to just fake push and then expand since most toss will probably prepare for a rush instead of expanding as fast as the T.
I think it's key to make sure you have good building placement. What I mean by that is if the P player decides to 2gate//zeal, you want to make sure you have your buildings positioned in such a way that a bunker will be able to protect your entire base from an attack.
When it hits mid-game, Terran's only way to seize any sort of map control is through vult harass so it's best to do that. Slow pushing will get you no where on that map with the middle being un-buildable terrain and dropships are not as useful with the lack of cilffs. Make sure to get speed+mines as fast as possible when going 1fact//expo while still getting seige before speed and from there just try and find any openings. Mine up all other expansions and, by this time, the P will probably also take their min only expansion. Usually there's only 3-4 goons there so having a good sized force of vultures, like 6-8, should be enough to allow you to efficiently kill goons and possibly probes. If you must attack, it's best to do so after you put the toss army out of position with vulture harass since slow pushing is not an option. If it just so happens that you're able to mine all expansions so toss is mining same # of expansions as you, you can get double armory right away and start planning for the late-game or try and take an expansion quicker than the toss. Just make sure when you do this to solidify your d since P may try and attack you and catch you while you're vulnerable.
On September 03 2005 14:32 Grass.nS) wrote: Most P's tend to have an aggressive build on that map like 2gate//range or 2 gate//zeal, so as far as builds go, 1fact//expo works well since most toss don't get robotics very fast on this map. I always wait until I have a bunch of marines, a tank, 1 vulture and have spider mine researching and defend my choke to expo safely. 2 fact//vult is riskier since you have to have a couple marines defending choke which slows down the 2nd factory. Any type of 2fact//push seems like the only other good alternative to 1 fact//expo. It's riskier though because it's not very strong vs 2 gate builds, which are common on this map, so most times it may be best to just fake push and then expand since most toss will probably prepare for a rush instead of expanding as fast as the T.
I think it's key to make sure you have good building placement. What I mean by that is if the P player decides to 2gate//zeal, you want to make sure you have your buildings positioned in such a way that a bunker will be able to protect your entire base from an attack.
When it hits mid-game, Terran's only way to seize any sort of map control is through vult harass so it's best to do that. Slow pushing will get you no where on that map with the middle being un-buildable terrain and dropships are not as useful with the lack of cilffs. Make sure to get speed+mines as fast as possible when going 1fact//expo while still getting seige before speed and from there just try and find any openings. Mine up all other expansions and, by this time, the P will probably also take their min only expansion. Usually there's only 3-4 goons there so having a good sized force of vultures, like 6-8, should be enough to allow you to efficiently kill goons and possibly probes. If you must attack, it's best to do so after you put the toss army out of position with vulture harass since slow pushing is not an option. If it just so happens that you're able to mine all expansions so toss is mining same # of expansions as you, you can get double armory right away and start planning for the late-game or try and take an expansion quicker than the toss. Just make sure when you do this to solidify your d since P may try and attack you and catch you while you're vulnerable.
Whoa, that's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, thanks.
Sorry if you want this to die but I'm having a lot of TvP luna trouble and I don't want to start another thread on this. Pretty much every game I'll scout the P going 2 gate goons and go fake rush fast expo. So I have my expo secured, I see him double expo in response, I send vultures out and then... what am I supposed to do with these damn things? It's like my vult harass never seems to do enough damage nor does it give me much map control, and then since I've been going vults all game and losing them he just goes and steamrolls my ass with 537755555555 goons.
Even worse, no matter how hard I try to add on more factories, add on more depots and keep my existing factories active, my money just always somehow crawls above 2000 minerals along with a bajillion gas. I've lost countless TvP games where if I just macroed better I probably would've won. However, "macro better" is very bland. I want to be able to macro but at the same time I don't want to play passively because if I do then the toss will take like 20 bases, and since tank pushing on luna is as hard as tits I can't really do anything about it. What does it take to keep this shit spent?
Before this I would play a regular tank push style terran, and the only tosses I could beat were the ones that were too lazy to flank or use zealot bombs or just played like shit in general. Other than being maxed out with 3-3 tank/vult and tornadoing, I have no clue how to push a toss on luna without getting my face trounced so bad it'd make your head spin.
Even worse, no matter how hard I try to add on more factories, add on more depots and keep my existing factories active, my money just always somehow crawls above 2000 minerals along with a bajillion gas.
This is a very complex issue, and but I think this little tidbit of information may help you out on finding the answer to this life-threatening issue.
EPT
