On January 11 2012 05:06 Golgotha wrote: I have a question about fighting sair in ZvP. it seems like they will always have a sair out before my scourgies so I will lose an overlord. well I lose a lot of overlords. is there a trick to making sure that the sairs do jack squat? rips out my heart when sairs pop ovies. I am going overpool into fast spire.
it is normal to lose one overlord. however, from the point of you having your fifth hatch to the point that you begin hydra or muta production, it is important not to lose any overlords at this point because you will need to have sufficient stuff to deflect his timing attack.
currently, the most reliable way of dealing with them is to make a spore at each entry base(nat and 3rd) and place some hydras alongside. however, if you have good scourge control, cloning scourge is still the way to go. the trick is to attack the sairs at multiple angles so that he cannot accumulate the splash point on all your scourge.
the most important part about the simcity is to prevent him from running up your ramp to the main and to stop him from reaching the sunkens. the drones can also be used to block him from reaching your hydras.
In this guide by w3jjjj, he talks about an old build originated by JD to counter the mass sair style of Bisu. 6 Hatch off 4 base into mass hydra/lurker....my mouth is salivating. Mass drones and scourge (I assume there are lings to kill any early zealots). Scourge to stop the drops and kill the sairs.
I have faced many two stargate sair many times and so I would like to learn this build. Can someone show me? Not sure what it is called since w3jjjj says it is outdated.
Should I learn this build or just stick with the neo sauron build of modern times? Thank you!
In this guide by w3jjjj, he talks about an old build originated by JD to counter the mass sair style of Bisu. 6 Hatch off 4 base into mass hydra/lurker....my mouth is salivating. Mass drones and scourge (I assume there are lings to kill any early zealots). Scourge to stop the drops and kill the sairs.
I have faced many two stargate sair many times and so I would like to learn this build. Can someone show me? Not sure what it is called since w3jjjj says it is outdated.
Should I learn this build or just stick with the neo sauron build of modern times? Thank you!
That build isn't viable against the current standard Protoss play. Your mid-game army will be too weak to fend off Protoss aggression.
If you scout the opponent doing some crazy 2 Stargate play (for whatever reason), then feel free to use this build. It's actually nothing more than a much greedier version of the Neo Sauron build. Instead of starting Hydralisk production at ~42-45 supply, pump more Drones, put up some spores if necessary, and take your fourth base. You don't need to take your third gas until later if he's going 2 Stargate Corsair play - he just won't have enough of a ground army to put enough pressure on you.
If you want to see this build in action, search for PvZ VODs around mid-late 2008.
In this guide by w3jjjj, he talks about an old build originated by JD to counter the mass sair style of Bisu. 6 Hatch off 4 base into mass hydra/lurker....my mouth is salivating. Mass drones and scourge (I assume there are lings to kill any early zealots). Scourge to stop the drops and kill the sairs.
I have faced many two stargate sair many times and so I would like to learn this build. Can someone show me? Not sure what it is called since w3jjjj says it is outdated.
Should I learn this build or just stick with the neo sauron build of modern times? Thank you!
That build isn't viable against the current standard Protoss play. Your mid-game army will be too weak to fend off Protoss aggression.
If you scout the opponent doing some crazy 2 Stargate play (for whatever reason), then feel free to use this build. It's actually nothing more than a much greedier version of the Neo Sauron build. Instead of starting Hydralisk production at ~42-45 supply, pump more Drones, put up some spores if necessary, and take your fourth base. You don't need to take your third gas until later if he's going 2 Stargate Corsair play - he just won't have enough of a ground army to put enough pressure on you.
If you want to see this build in action, search for PvZ VODs around mid-late 2008.
........
6hat 4base +1 flyer cara is completely standard on 4p maps now (and has been since summer of 2010 and is completely viable against "current standard Protoss play" while holding off "Protoss aggression" (and has so many different systems it can branch off into)
I don't really have time to link bunch of vods atm so I'll just link one of the more educational ones about zvp in general.
In this guide by w3jjjj, he talks about an old build originated by JD to counter the mass sair style of Bisu. 6 Hatch off 4 base into mass hydra/lurker....my mouth is salivating. Mass drones and scourge (I assume there are lings to kill any early zealots). Scourge to stop the drops and kill the sairs.
I have faced many two stargate sair many times and so I would like to learn this build. Can someone show me? Not sure what it is called since w3jjjj says it is outdated.
Should I learn this build or just stick with the neo sauron build of modern times? Thank you!
That build isn't viable against the current standard Protoss play. Your mid-game army will be too weak to fend off Protoss aggression.
If you scout the opponent doing some crazy 2 Stargate play (for whatever reason), then feel free to use this build. It's actually nothing more than a much greedier version of the Neo Sauron build. Instead of starting Hydralisk production at ~42-45 supply, pump more Drones, put up some spores if necessary, and take your fourth base. You don't need to take your third gas until later if he's going 2 Stargate Corsair play - he just won't have enough of a ground army to put enough pressure on you.
If you want to see this build in action, search for PvZ VODs around mid-late 2008.
........
6hat 4base +1 flyer cara is completely standard on 4p maps now (and has been since summer of 2010 and is completely viable against "current standard Protoss play" while holding off "Protoss aggression" (and has so many different systems it can branch off into)
I don't really have time to link bunch of vods atm so I'll just link one of the more educational ones about zvp in general.
The recent 6hat 4base is a variation split off of the Neo Sauron build and only resembles the old version in terms of mid-late game transition. It's slightly less economical than the old version, and is still specifically only designed to go against a Corsair heavy Protoss midgame. It's still particularly vulnerable to the early aggression shown by Bisu and a properly executed 4 Gate 2 Archon push can still set Zerg pretty far behind if not force an outright win if he blindly takes the 4th Hatch too quickly.
Also, the old version had to contend with a wildly different map pool including Destination, HBR, Medusa, Colosseum, etc. The new 6hat 4base sprung up as the map pool changed, introducing stuff like Grand Line, Fighting Spirit, and such maps where Zergs could take the natural of another base and turtle off of it.
On January 11 2012 05:06 Golgotha wrote: I have a question about fighting sair in ZvP. it seems like they will always have a sair out before my scourgies so I will lose an overlord. well I lose a lot of overlords. is there a trick to making sure that the sairs do jack squat? rips out my heart when sairs pop ovies. I am going overpool into fast spire.
it is normal to lose one overlord. however, from the point of you having your fifth hatch to the point that you begin hydra or muta production, it is important not to lose any overlords at this point because you will need to have sufficient stuff to deflect his timing attack.
currently, the most reliable way of dealing with them is to make a spore at each entry base(nat and 3rd) and place some hydras alongside. however, if you have good scourge control, cloning scourge is still the way to go. the trick is to attack the sairs at multiple angles so that he cannot accumulate the splash point on all your scourge.
the most important part about the simcity is to prevent him from running up your ramp to the main and to stop him from reaching the sunkens. the drones can also be used to block him from reaching your hydras.
it uses hydra and a bit of scourge to deal with the sair and static defenses at all the bases.
yes but not quite. the 'neo-sauron' has been quite effectively countered through the use of zealot timing attacks and the building up of a corsair fleet. because you can no longer rely on ht sniping and how lurkers will be late enough to let him get a third, your mid-game attack with neo-sauron does not render any advantage to you anymore due to storm utility.
the more modern variation has been to build up a small hydra army for stopping zealots and move into a very fast fourth base. but it seems that at this point in time, p is seemingly at an upper hand because the timing and econ difference between the 4th base and the 7th and 8th hatcheries is seemingly too large for P to exploit. it seems that right now, the best answer is to totally side-step the ability for mid-game pressure and build only what you need. meanwhile, you should be moving straight into hive tech and delay the extra hatcheries for dark swarm.
As a Protoss, is there any efficient way to scout a doom drop? I know that when the Zerg has a fleet of ovies loading up hydra+lurk outside his main you can be fairly certain he is going to drop, but maybe there is a specific timing on ovie speed or something which can help for detecting it. Thanks
On January 14 2012 02:00 rad301 wrote: As a Protoss, is there any efficient way to scout a doom drop? I know that when the Zerg has a fleet of ovies loading up hydra+lurk outside his main you can be fairly certain he is going to drop, but maybe there is a specific timing on ovie speed or something which can help for detecting it. Thanks
Timing would vary depending on what you are doing. Early doom drops are strong against protoss that try to turtle and tech hard into say, a sair-reaver composition. The reavers rely on being behind cannons or building walls to be effective, and drops can negate that. As a result, you have to be very careful with you corsair movements. Assuming you do a more standard gateway based army with high templars and upgraded zealots, doom drops are likely to only be a significant problem in the late game when your bases are spread out while your army is forced to be all together in one place. In this late game scenario, you want to just throw down a number of cannons around your important tech in your main or even rebuild it elsewhere. Having good observer placement can also help to let you see this coming.
Really though, at least in the late game, you can't be 100% certain of preventing such a doom drop, but the cannons can buy you time while your army comes to engage. At that point, the storms and possibly reavers you can bring in mean that you should be very cost efficient in killing off the drop, so you usually have the option of counter attacking.
How do you clump units when trying for recall? I see pro players doing something that clumps goons and zealots really tightly that results massive recall. Is there a trick to do this? I found my self doing move click to a unit but doesn't work well and waste too much time.
Also what is the proper response for hydra all-in/fake hydra all-in? I found hydra all-in to be very versatile to me as, if zerg see too many cannons, they can make ~12 hydras and just take out forge and gateway and macro up. OR if I don't put down enough cannons, I get busted. I found this situation often if my first scout probe dies quickly. Anything critical things I need to do?
On January 16 2012 08:14 mtwow789 wrote: How do you clump units when trying for recall? I see pro players doing something that clumps goons and zealots really tightly that results massive recall. Is there a trick to do this? I found my self doing move click to a unit but doesn't work well and waste too much time.
Also what is the proper response for hydra all-in/fake hydra all-in? I found hydra all-in to be very versatile to me as, if zerg see too many cannons, they can make ~12 hydras and just take out forge and gateway and macro up. OR if I don't put down enough cannons, I get busted. I found this situation often if my first scout probe dies quickly. Anything critical things I need to do?
i don't see any other way to clump units other than to click them on one unit so i'm really not sure.
against a hydra all-in you will need to plant down cannons to buy enough time for your templar tech to be ready. meaning you will need storms to be able to hold it off. the first thing about hydra-allins is drone count. a committed all-in that attacks before corsair scout usually requires a lot of drone cutting. so if you can hold off the initial pressure for your templar tech to come in, you are in great shape because he is very low on drones.
the first sair should be used to move around and you need to take an active role in noting the drone count. a fake hydra all-in will usually stop at around 12 hydras and he will add around 5-6 drones before getting the third base and adding on drones further on for the third base.
once u can get your templar tech out, you are safe to move out to expand. don't stop the sairs because you really need that air control and scouting capability to keep track of things and to see if he added a spire or not.
On January 16 2012 08:14 mtwow789 wrote: How do you clump units when trying for recall? I see pro players doing something that clumps goons and zealots really tightly that results massive recall. Is there a trick to do this? I found my self doing move click to a unit but doesn't work well and waste too much time.
Also what is the proper response for hydra all-in/fake hydra all-in? I found hydra all-in to be very versatile to me as, if zerg see too many cannons, they can make ~12 hydras and just take out forge and gateway and macro up. OR if I don't put down enough cannons, I get busted. I found this situation often if my first scout probe dies quickly. Anything critical things I need to do?
I THINK (but not sure) that putting goons in the middle and zealots around the periphery helps you get more in since zealots are smaller.
As for fake hydra busts, keeping your corsair scout alive to check on whether he is making drones or hydras is CRUCIAL. Also what JMave said.
Here is my situation: I'm having wireless LAN Internet connection at school. I'm browsing Web via laptop with Windows 7. And I would like to host games on ICCup. My ports aren't forwarded (checked it here) and I have no idea how to do it WITHOUT having a router at all. (Of course when I type my IP adress into browser, it just returns 'cannot find the site blah blah blah...)
How can I forward those damn ports? Oh, BTW, my IP seems the same every time I connect to that LAN.
Searched this forums but so far, all port forwarding threads revolve around routers... Can anyone help?
On January 24 2012 00:43 popzags wrote: OK guys, might not be a strategy question, but...
Here is my situation: I'm having wireless LAN Internet connection at school. I'm browsing Web via laptop with Windows 7. And I would like to host games on ICCup. My ports aren't forwarded (checked it here) and I have no idea how to do it WITHOUT having a router at all. (Of course when I type my IP adress into browser, it just returns 'cannot find the site blah blah blah...)
How can I forward those damn ports? Oh, BTW, my IP seems the same every time I connect to that LAN.
Searched this forums but so far, all port forwarding threads revolve around routers... Can anyone help?
In PvZ when should I switch into macro mode and throw down 5-6 gates and pump units to take map control? Usually I wait until storm has started researching, is this a good time? Is it better to throw up all your gates up at once or grdaully build them up?
On January 24 2012 09:40 Retgery wrote: In PvZ when should I switch into macro mode and throw down 5-6 gates and pump units to take map control? Usually I wait until storm has started researching, is this a good time? Is it better to throw up all your gates up at once or grdaully build them up?
There was an experiment that counted time to reach 200 for two different approaches. The result was that building gateways one by one as you make units were faster. However, I think it is matter of preference.
For people like me who doesn't have high enough APM, I rather make gateways 2 to 3 at a time when there is a hiatus. For me PvZ is APM intensive that makes macro more difficult. I even build +12 gateways in the late game because I just can't constantly make units. Battle against zerg needs too much attention, such as storming, holding zealots, saving obs from scourge, controlling corsairs, shuttle etc etc.... too much to do... while zerg only turtles behind sunken+spore+lurkers.
EPT
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