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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
Are some maps better for mech than bio? I was watching FlaSh (of course) and noticed he goes similar opener but goes mech and sometimes bio vs Zerg. Other than the mind games. Is there a geographical(map) benefit of going mech on certain maps vs Zerg? | ||
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Jealous
10154 Posts
On April 03 2020 09:35 llIH wrote: TvZ Are some maps better for mech than bio? I was watching FlaSh (of course) and noticed he goes similar opener but goes mech and sometimes bio vs Zerg. Other than the mind games. Is there a geographical(map) benefit of going mech on certain maps vs Zerg? Yes. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On April 03 2020 09:35 llIH wrote: TvZ Are some maps better for mech than bio? I was watching FlaSh (of course) and noticed he goes similar opener but goes mech and sometimes bio vs Zerg. Other than the mind games. Is there a geographical(map) benefit of going mech on certain maps vs Zerg? yeah maps with a lot of choke points (destination, blue storm, bloody ridge) and maps that are easy to split (Fighting Spirit, Circuit breaker) are good for mech. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Against Light stork went for carriers several times, and each time he did he put the stargates and fleet beacon in the main basically right next to the nexus. This resulted in his stargates getting scanned each time, including a game where he opened with 1 base pressure and tastosis thought there was 0 chance of carrier play (game 3 on neo sylphid). In TvP is it common/viable at all to hide the stargates? I suppose if T is being active on the map with vultures they're probably pretty likely to just find it anyway, but the upside of being able to "surprise" your opponent with carriers seems like it could be worth it? | ||
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Jealous
10154 Posts
On April 06 2020 12:36 packrat386 wrote: It's been a long time since I have watched any starcraft (hooray for being stuck at home), so I apologize if this is a dumb question, also spoilers for Stork vs Light + Show Spoiler + Against Light stork went for carriers several times, and each time he did he put the stargates and fleet beacon in the main basically right next to the nexus. This resulted in his stargates getting scanned each time, including a game where he opened with 1 base pressure and tastosis thought there was 0 chance of carrier play (game 3 on neo sylphid). In TvP is it common/viable at all to hide the stargates? I suppose if T is being active on the map with vultures they're probably pretty likely to just find it anyway, but the upside of being able to "surprise" your opponent with carriers seems like it could be worth it? The best you can do is put them somewhere that is harder to find within your base, on maps with large mains like Andromeda. Beyond that, proxying Carriers only works at low levels and only makes sense if you are doing 2 base cheese or something. Proxying your buildings is basically lost minerals/gas unless you win with your first few Carriers. Terrans have scan and if they scan your base and see an absence of Arbiter tech, they can basically assume Carriers as well. So no, the answer is it does not make sense to proxy your Stargate or Fleet Beacon. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
On April 06 2020 12:36 packrat386 wrote: It's been a long time since I have watched any starcraft (hooray for being stuck at home), so I apologize if this is a dumb question, also spoilers for Stork vs Light + Show Spoiler + Against Light stork went for carriers several times, and each time he did he put the stargates and fleet beacon in the main basically right next to the nexus. This resulted in his stargates getting scanned each time, including a game where he opened with 1 base pressure and tastosis thought there was 0 chance of carrier play (game 3 on neo sylphid). In TvP is it common/viable at all to hide the stargates? I suppose if T is being active on the map with vultures they're probably pretty likely to just find it anyway, but the upside of being able to "surprise" your opponent with carriers seems like it could be worth it? Stork did proxy carriers in ASL2 (actually vs light lol) timestamp is 38m26s Generally speaking, it is very map dependent and not a stable strategy. Past a certain level, you definitely won't be able to completely surprise your opponent with 4 carriers and win the game as they simply take too long to build and your opponent will notice the lack of tech/units. In the game I linked, stork's proxy does more than just hide the carrier tech. In the game he goes for a very fast 2 base carrier build. If we look at the map around the 12oclock natural and 1oclock third, we can see that the there is a large amount of void space behind the natural and third minerals from which the carriers can swing between and pick at the natural and third. Its also difficult for the terran to maneuver to defend both the natrual and third with goliaths while the carriers can easily move between attacking the two bases. The location of the stargates provides quick access to this area while also being not easily assailable as the terran has to march all the way around and up a ramp, all the while air distance for the carrier to move from behind the natrual/thrird to defending the stargates is comparatively short. Attacking the stargates also does not threaten any attack on the protoss economy as it is out of the way of any protoss bases and would also enable a ground attack from the protoss to the natural. In the game light goes after the nat + main, but stork just base trades and takes the 3 oclock which again can be quickly defended by the carriers. Even if light doesn't lose his main, its very hard for him to get units out from his main once he lost his natural. Even if he reclaims his natural area, it is hard for him to hold it due to the terrain. | ||
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
First q: Since now custom hotkeys are available, do you use these? I play toss btw | ||
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maxxunlimited
2 Posts
i'm having some trouble with marines/bio in PvT i'm a new player, but i'm playing primarily with a group of IRL friends and none of us are amazing. i'm playing protoss and usually play in the 80-100 APM range, and a friend who is a bit better than me plays terran (around 120-140 APM). a lot of our games play out "normally" with a lot of tanks and vultures vs goons and speedlots, with me trying to keep him on 2 bases while i expand. i lose more often than i win, but i can generally tell what happened or where i got outplayed. my problem comes when he deviates from this and makes a significant bio army early. his army is more mobile and sort of flips map control in his favor, allowing him to expand more. everything i've read here (and elsewhere) seems to indicate that terran shouldn't really have the option to play bio against protoss, due to marines getting countered by dragoons, but i can't seem to get that to work unless i pump out so many dragoons that i significantly delay my first expansion and end up way behind economically. i THINK i should be able to micro ranged dragoons to kite marines, but i'm not exactly sure how. the dragoons take long enough to shoot that by the time i start moving them again the marines usually have caught up and started firing, and i don't have a lot of room to dance around kiting marines when they're right outside my base. should i be sending dragoons across the map to wait outside his base, and try to kite them in the open as they move across the map? i guess my questions are: why isn't early bio play effective against protoss? how should i counter early marines as protoss? about how many dragoons are necessary to hold off X marines? are there any examples of good dragoon micro against marines? (this has been hard to find because significant numbers of marines seem so rare in this matchup) i know that my APM is low and i'm (slowly) improving that, so maybe these problems will go away once i'm faster. but my opponent generally isn't playing THAT much faster than me, and i'm able to win games every now and then against mech compositions, so i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 07 2020 05:33 maxxunlimited wrote: hi TL. first time poster, so i'm not sure if this is the right thread, but i wasn't sure if this warranted a new thread. i'm having some trouble with marines/bio in PvT i'm a new player, but i'm playing primarily with a group of IRL friends and none of us are amazing. i'm playing protoss and usually play in the 80-100 APM range, and a friend who is a bit better than me plays terran (around 120-140 APM). a lot of our games play out "normally" with a lot of tanks and vultures vs goons and speedlots, with me trying to keep him on 2 bases while i expand. i lose more often than i win, but i can generally tell what happened or where i got outplayed. my problem comes when he deviates from this and makes a significant bio army early. his army is more mobile and sort of flips map control in his favor, allowing him to expand more. everything i've read here (and elsewhere) seems to indicate that terran shouldn't really have the option to play bio against protoss, due to marines getting countered by dragoons, but i can't seem to get that to work unless i pump out so many dragoons that i significantly delay my first expansion and end up way behind economically. i THINK i should be able to micro ranged dragoons to kite marines, but i'm not exactly sure how. the dragoons take long enough to shoot that by the time i start moving them again the marines usually have caught up and started firing, and i don't have a lot of room to dance around kiting marines when they're right outside my base. should i be sending dragoons across the map to wait outside his base, and try to kite them in the open as they move across the map? i guess my questions are: why isn't early bio play effective against protoss? how should i counter early marines as protoss? about how many dragoons are necessary to hold off X marines? are there any examples of good dragoon micro against marines? (this has been hard to find because significant numbers of marines seem so rare in this matchup) i know that my APM is low and i'm (slowly) improving that, so maybe these problems will go away once i'm faster. but my opponent generally isn't playing THAT much faster than me, and i'm able to win games every now and then against mech compositions, so i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong Bio play is/can only be effective early on before the protoss gets reavers or high templars for storm. Reason is that bio will get shredded by these units, due to their insane damage thus you rarely see terrans go for bio except as cheese or in very very specific situations (think flash vs bisu in that same crossing field game in ASL). How to counter? Probably depends on how the game is progressing (builds, how many marines vs goons etc...). Goon vs marine micro can be tough. If I'm not mistaken, you can use hold micro in the same way that goons can kill mines without an obs (or was it stop? been forever haha). Essentially, you move the goons back, press H, they'll hit the marines then move back asap and repeat. Hopefully someone will more experience will comment on this and the other questions in more depth. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 07 2020 05:33 maxxunlimited wrote: hi TL. first time poster, so i'm not sure if this is the right thread, but i wasn't sure if this warranted a new thread. i'm having some trouble with marines/bio in PvT i'm a new player, but i'm playing primarily with a group of IRL friends and none of us are amazing. i'm playing protoss and usually play in the 80-100 APM range, and a friend who is a bit better than me plays terran (around 120-140 APM). a lot of our games play out "normally" with a lot of tanks and vultures vs goons and speedlots, with me trying to keep him on 2 bases while i expand. i lose more often than i win, but i can generally tell what happened or where i got outplayed. my problem comes when he deviates from this and makes a significant bio army early. his army is more mobile and sort of flips map control in his favor, allowing him to expand more. everything i've read here (and elsewhere) seems to indicate that terran shouldn't really have the option to play bio against protoss, due to marines getting countered by dragoons, but i can't seem to get that to work unless i pump out so many dragoons that i significantly delay my first expansion and end up way behind economically. i THINK i should be able to micro ranged dragoons to kite marines, but i'm not exactly sure how. the dragoons take long enough to shoot that by the time i start moving them again the marines usually have caught up and started firing, and i don't have a lot of room to dance around kiting marines when they're right outside my base. should i be sending dragoons across the map to wait outside his base, and try to kite them in the open as they move across the map? i guess my questions are: why isn't early bio play effective against protoss? how should i counter early marines as protoss? about how many dragoons are necessary to hold off X marines? are there any examples of good dragoon micro against marines? (this has been hard to find because significant numbers of marines seem so rare in this matchup) i know that my APM is low and i'm (slowly) improving that, so maybe these problems will go away once i'm faster. but my opponent generally isn't playing THAT much faster than me, and i'm able to win games every now and then against mech compositions, so i'm not sure what i'm doing wrong Dragoons with range will counter small groups of naked marines with good hold pos micro and kiting. Once medics get thrown into the mix, you have to have a significant number of gateway units to deal with bio, and once the bio ball reaches about 3 groups (36 units), dragoons/zealots won't cut it anymore (cost for cost). Typical way to deal with this is usually fast tech to reavers, which you can either use offensively with a shuttle to keep the bio somewhat pinned back or defensively to deal with early direct pushes. Once you have zealot speed and storm (and +1 armor!), your gateway army can clean up bio no problem. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 07 2020 05:32 duplex__ wrote: Yo guys, I started to play a little for the first time in 15 years or so. I would like to have some exchange with other players, ask some silly questions and get some quick answers. Is there a tl.net broodwar channel or discord or so? First q: Since now custom hotkeys are available, do you use these? I play toss btw https://discord.gg/6QEXQ8d (CPL, to re-learn the game) https://discord.gg/mveQY42 (BSL, tourney discord) https://discord.gg/4BUCZuk (FBW, more of a chat discord) | ||
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
On April 07 2020 06:53 TT1 wrote: https://discord.gg/6QEXQ8d (CPL, to re-learn the game) https://discord.gg/mveQY42 (BSL, tourney discord) https://discord.gg/4BUCZuk (FBW, more of a chat discord) Cool, thanks a lot. I've joined the channels. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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Jealous
10154 Posts
On April 08 2020 00:27 Shock710 wrote: Anyone remember that video, of a korea pro showing us how he produces out of barracks, like f2, rapid barracks selection and production the f3 to return to the fight. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On April 06 2020 11:15 Jonoman92 wrote: What are current MMR to ICCUP equivalents roughly? ie: back in the day I was B high ICCUP. Early on in remastered I was 2k, but now I think getting to 2k is way harder than it was back when remastered came out? no one knows because people keep improving over the years but Artosis is like 2050-2150 and he said he would have been A- back in the older ICCUP when there were fewer players and it was harder. I think ladder rank corresponds roughly to the same letter rank on ICCUP because people have improved and the meta is stronger. I especially have no idea because I started playing around 1v1 around 2016 but I can say that most people have around 150 mmr less than they did when ladder didn't have so many Koreans. | ||
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maxxunlimited
2 Posts
On April 07 2020 05:41 BigFan wrote: Bio play is/can only be effective early on before the protoss gets reavers or high templars for storm. Reason is that bio will get shredded by these units, due to their insane damage thus you rarely see terrans go for bio except as cheese or in very very specific situations (think flash vs bisu in that same crossing field game in ASL). How to counter? Probably depends on how the game is progressing (builds, how many marines vs goons etc...). Goon vs marine micro can be tough. If I'm not mistaken, you can use hold micro in the same way that goons can kill mines without an obs (or was it stop? been forever haha). Essentially, you move the goons back, press H, they'll hit the marines then move back asap and repeat. Hopefully someone will more experience will comment on this and the other questions in more depth. On April 07 2020 06:37 EsportsJohn wrote: Dragoons with range will counter small groups of naked marines with good hold pos micro and kiting. Once medics get thrown into the mix, you have to have a significant number of gateway units to deal with bio, and once the bio ball reaches about 3 groups (36 units), dragoons/zealots won't cut it anymore (cost for cost). Typical way to deal with this is usually fast tech to reavers, which you can either use offensively with a shuttle to keep the bio somewhat pinned back or defensively to deal with early direct pushes. Once you have zealot speed and storm (and +1 armor!), your gateway army can clean up bio no problem. ah that makes more sense. so it's relatively safe in the very early game to still go dragoon first because i can fend off small amounts of marines with good micro, but once i see that he's going in that direction i should aim toward a more PvZ-ish unit composition of speedzealots and high templar (are archons good here too?), with an early tech to reavers in the meantime (since i'll have robo up anyway). thanks a ton to both of you new question: how should i prioritize upgrades for protoss in different matchups/situations? how many forges? does it ever make sense to build extra cybernetics cores? when should i go for armor/shields and when should i go for attack? how do i decide between armor and shields? | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3372 Posts
On April 08 2020 05:33 maxxunlimited wrote: ah that makes more sense. so it's relatively safe in the very early game to still go dragoon first because i can fend off small amounts of marines with good micro, but once i see that he's going in that direction i should aim toward a more PvZ-ish unit composition of speedzealots and high templar (are archons good here too?), with an early tech to reavers in the meantime (since i'll have robo up anyway). thanks a ton to both of you new question: how should i prioritize upgrades for protoss in different matchups/situations? how many forges? does it ever make sense to build extra cybernetics cores? when should i go for armor/shields and when should i go for attack? how do i decide between armor and shields? You should always go attack first. Vs Z you might try a 2nd forge for armor upgrades (stork does this a lot) Armor is usually better because of the (gas) cost. You d rather have ht/obs/arbs than the +1shield. Also shield take full damage vs everything. For air upgrades i d say it depends. Vs z, +1 attack for corsair first is usually considered standard. 2 cores can make sense if you go carrier and you have the gas. Vs P because of the high damage of tanks, usually.you go to +3 attack first, then whatever. I rarely ever get ground armor at all vs T. Shields idk, more research required (arbs vs turrets? ) PvP i try and go +1 attack then double forge attack armor if i play good/speedlot/ht if you have spare gas | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
thank you very much | ||
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
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