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On March 20 2020 04:39 MisterBoba wrote:
Do you think improve can be made IF force yourself to play faster? My APM like 220. Past couple week I force myself to play faster (not spam) like 250 and I have gotten use to it. Why no one tell me this tactic? Haha. And good health.
Bisu did mention that he forced himself to keep high apm in order to improve it.
good health.
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On March 20 2020 04:39 MisterBoba wrote:
Do you think improve can be made IF force yourself to play faster? My APM like 220. Past couple week I force myself to play faster (not spam) like 250 and I have gotten use to it. Why no one tell me this tactic? Haha. And good health.
yes. thats how pros got good. memorise all the details of a build and then repeat that build as fast as possible to make it 2nd nature
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Bonyth said i gotta practice "bound ums" to improve my control.
can you guys pls link me that map?
i gotta listen kings advice.
nvm bonyth shared the map
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On March 22 2020 01:56 XenOsky wrote:
Bonyth said i gotta practice "bound ums" to improve my control.
can you guys pls link me that map?
i gotta listen kings advice.
nvm bonyth shared the map
Share it here then!
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Russian Federation121 Posts
When play vs Random as Protoss I do
8 pylon
10 gateway
12 pylon
zeal + gas at the same time (as soon as gate is done and no probes cut)
But if I play against to Zerg then I am stuck. I go stargate? Yes usually but sometime lose when I take natural.
No replay just general advice?
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On March 22 2020 13:42 MisterBoba wrote:
When play vs Random as Protoss I do
8 pylon
10 gateway
12 pylon
zeal + gas at the same time (as soon as gate is done and no probes cut)
But if I play against to Zerg then I am stuck. I go stargate? Yes usually but sometime lose when I take natural.
No replay just general advice?
Place your first Gateway forward in your natural (use a cliff Pylon if you can) and go Pylon scout to find race, react accordingly IMO.
Most 1 base tech openings get crushed by Zerg, sadly. My favorite though is Stargate, Robo, 1 Corsair for scouting/harassment, Reaver, Shuttle speed. If they go Muta you continue Sair production and +1, if they go Hydra you wait until a second Reaver to take your nat and can usually take a quick 3rd if you did a decent job harassing.
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Russian Federation121 Posts
On March 22 2020 14:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 13:42 MisterBoba wrote:
When play vs Random as Protoss I do
8 pylon
10 gateway
12 pylon
zeal + gas at the same time (as soon as gate is done and no probes cut)
But if I play against to Zerg then I am stuck. I go stargate? Yes usually but sometime lose when I take natural.
No replay just general advice? Place your first Gateway forward in your natural (use a cliff Pylon if you can) and go Pylon scout to find race, react accordingly IMO. Most 1 base tech openings get crushed by Zerg, sadly. My favorite though is Stargate, Robo, 1 Corsair for scouting/harassment, Reaver, Shuttle speed. If they go Muta you continue Sair production and +1, if they go Hydra you wait until a second Reaver to take your nat and can usually take a quick 3rd if you did a decent job harassing.
Thank you good health. I use to did forward gate but it not very good in PvP and sometime PvT. But is fair game. So you go reaver 1 base then expand? Is nexus not late too much so to prevent you falling behind in eco? I will try your gameplan thank you. It is good fair game just matter of figure out my own strategy and not Z fault or anything like this.
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On March 22 2020 15:27 MisterBoba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 14:11 Jealous wrote:On March 22 2020 13:42 MisterBoba wrote:
When play vs Random as Protoss I do
8 pylon
10 gateway
12 pylon
zeal + gas at the same time (as soon as gate is done and no probes cut)
But if I play against to Zerg then I am stuck. I go stargate? Yes usually but sometime lose when I take natural.
No replay just general advice? Place your first Gateway forward in your natural (use a cliff Pylon if you can) and go Pylon scout to find race, react accordingly IMO. Most 1 base tech openings get crushed by Zerg, sadly. My favorite though is Stargate, Robo, 1 Corsair for scouting/harassment, Reaver, Shuttle speed. If they go Muta you continue Sair production and +1, if they go Hydra you wait until a second Reaver to take your nat and can usually take a quick 3rd if you did a decent job harassing. Thank you good health. I use to did forward gate but it not very good in PvP and sometime PvT. But is fair game. So you go reaver 1 base then expand? Is nexus not late too much so to prevent you falling behind in eco? I will try your gameplan thank you. It is good fair game just matter of figure out my own strategy and not Z fault or anything like this.
Forward gate Zealot opening is decent in PvT as long as you don't let a Terran push reach your nat. Basically the same story in PvP, but less so.
The strategy I suggested, you do NOT do forward Gateway. For that reason, it does not go with my above advice. It was a different approach, if you continue to do Gateway inside your main. However, I said that 1 base tech builds get crushed by Zerg nowadays, so keep that in mind. The full "build" is like this, but obviously you need to make more Zealots/Pylons in some cases before Cyber in order to defend against Pool-first builds, so adjust accordingly.
+ Show Spoiler [1 Base Sair/Reaver] +8 Pylon
10 Gate
11 Assimilator
13 Zealot
15 Pylon
15 Probe
16 Probe
17 Zealot
19 Cyber
21 Pylon (preferably covering some portion of your low ground natural so that you can build Cannons on low ground without additional Pylons)
23 Dragoon
25 Stargate
25 Probe
26 Robotics
28-30 Corsair
28-30 Pylon
32-35 Robotics Support Bay, Shuttle, Forge, in that order, as money allows.
@100% Support Bay - Shuttle Speed
41 Pylon
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Russian Federation121 Posts
Thank you. Looks good. Come to think of it, I remember see I think Snow do this build on that snow map with all the trees. Does if sound familiar to you? I will find.
He end up do Goon Reaver. Yeah.
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On March 22 2020 08:34 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2020 01:56 XenOsky wrote:
Bonyth said i gotta practice "bound ums" to improve my control.
can you guys pls link me that map?
i gotta listen kings advice.
nvm bonyth shared the map Share it here then!
sure, ill do it later
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Russian Federation121 Posts
Another question I have. So in PvP when I face DT player against and he does normal storm rush with cannon at nat what do I do? I think attack into him is futile and his army scale better. But he is weak at first.
Usually I go this:
1) Once I have two base up running, I make citadel myself to make sure he does not greedy skip robo. DT and storm.
2) I get shuttle speed and try to harass much as possible with reaver and stop make reaver after 2 because is not very good vs storm.
3) Before any this, I pressure his nat with many goon to force many cannon. Is good to do.
But I will lose when I first get templar and he already have many templar and storm, he push with 6-8 gate and kill me while I am try to take that third.
Advice? He get very fast storm and make almost impossible to into attack. But he bank storm energy and is general good strong army.
Is my fault not fault of any thing else (balance, map, and such) and my responsible to learn to beat this.
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Depends how he opens. Usually dt into nat and storm rushes work well in lower elo if they went for a 2 gate into 3/5 zeal expand and you overcommitted stopping their 2gate, or alternatively if they managed to kill a few probes and stole your attention from when they were weak making the expo.
I'd assume this is not the case but if it is I guess same rules would apply you just gotta work for it a bit better.
Here's the thing: if they go for any variation of a DT build into a fast/semi-fast expo they are skimping a lot to get everything running! You just have to find the whole in their defense (and there will be one because they cannot afford everything) and apply pressure there.
If they went for a standard fast DT (skipping goon range) that's your first big tell already. Make sure your probe sticks around for long enough to see range started. Scout later in the game before DTs hit but when range should be done to confirm it. If you don't see range when you should or if you see no upgrades at the core go for fast obs. Get a few goons wait for DT or snipe it on the map. Then leave one goon at your ramp and attack. You should overwhelm him or at least force an expo cancel. If it's the latter just scout the map and don't let him expand. If he got his exp already and he's skipping goons and only building cannons even a proxied reaver can work but that's gimicky. If he has expo up and doesn't have cannons in the main drop your own DTs in his main and destroy everything there. If he has cannons and zeals at the expo, just elevator into the main. These are all valid counters depending on what you scout, how you handle the DTs. Note that any of them can be countered by your opponent but not all! And that's the thing. You need to scout where the weakness by seeing what he has/doesn't have at a given moment in the game is and punish that.
Hope this helps.
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Russian Federation121 Posts
Thank you y2k. Good health.
The specific build I play vs. is goon range, 1 DT, cannon or 2 at nat expo, fast templar storm, and more cannon if he see me make goon.
I am 1900 so yes this is quite low. But I am not think there is whole in his defense because I have try attack into storm and cannon and never work. So I just expand because he make many cannon, but he push eventual and kill me before I get many storm me too.
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On March 22 2020 13:42 MisterBoba wrote:
When play vs Random as Protoss I do
8 pylon
10 gateway
12 pylon
zeal + gas at the same time (as soon as gate is done and no probes cut)
But if I play against to Zerg then I am stuck. I go stargate? Yes usually but sometime lose when I take natural.
No replay just general advice?
It just really sucks. Go proxy two gate? It might be map-dependent, but usually viable
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@MisterBoba sounds to me that getting goon range and DT would result in them not having any units. So forcing them to onebase until storm is done seems like a good idea to me. Because by going for more gates and a robo you'll have more units so use that. Additionally if you force to stay at one base their economy will just suck so you can double expo and overwhelm them later on.
As for no holes in the defense, maybe but highly unlikely. Upload a replay where you think that is the case and I and way more skilled protoss players can look at it and help with better guidance.
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Norway28738 Posts
way I see it pvr has three different, about equally viable options, and a fourth that I myself greatly prefer facing.
1: 9 gate outside natural, pvz gateway expand style. This is ideal pvz, fine pvt (you don't expand but are aggressive with zealots, play pretty normally from there), pretty ass pvp.
2: 10 12 gate in main. This is totally fine pvp, not ideal, but absolutely playable in both pvt and pvz.
3: 1 gate gas in main. This is obviously fine pvt, fine pvp, and difficult, but as long as you know how to follow up, quite alright in pvz too.
If it's rvr where you get protoss, option 1 is the best of these (in rvr, likelihood of mirror matches decreases by a whole lot, chance of opponent being p is something like 1/27 if you got p yourself), if it's picked p vs r I think option 2 or 3 are the best.
Proxy 2 gate is worse than all of these, but if you are particularly attached to your preferred openings and you just don't want to play a pvz game where you don't get to forge fe, I guess it's a viable option.
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On March 24 2020 10:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
way I see it pvr has three different, about equally viable options, and a fourth that I myself greatly prefer facing.
1: 9 gate outside natural, pvz gateway expand style. This is ideal pvz, fine pvt (you don't expand but are aggressive with zealots, play pretty normally from there), pretty ass pvp.
2: 10 12 gate in main. This is totally fine pvp, not ideal, but absolutely playable in both pvt and pvz.
3: 1 gate gas in main. This is obviously fine pvt, fine pvp, and difficult, but as long as you know how to follow up, quite alright in pvz too.
If it's rvr where you get protoss, option 1 is the best of these (in rvr, likelihood of mirror matches decreases by a whole lot, chance of opponent being p is something like 1/27 if you got p yourself), if it's picked p vs p I think option 2 or 3 are the best.
Proxy 2 gate is worse than all of these, but if you are particularly attached to your preferred openings and you just don't want to play a pvz game where you don't get to forge fe, I guess it's a viable option.
What's your favorite PvR(Z) 1 base gas build and what's the one you have the most fun crushing as Zerg?
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For PvR, certainly P is the race that is in the worst position at the start the game.
I myself open sometimes center gate (either 1 or 2) just because I don't wanna play this kind of games.
If not my recommendation is to do 1 base gas strategies, basically you open gate gas core zeal, right after core you should have enough to get starport right away, after that you usually want to get a goon to deny the ovie scout, and after that more zeals while you get citadel and templars, this builds puts Z in a tough position, because even if they expoed the sair is so damn fast that they don't have a lot of eco, after that you want to exp and cannon up while getting storm. Z needs to get hydras so you need to be able to hold any counter attack. And sometimes you can do early attacks with 3 zeals +1 goon, and the Z is just droning up to get the hydras and this can be quite effective.
@MisterBoba regarding the DTs, I know the pain, Bisu showed yesterday that a reaver push can still be effective if you have godlike micro and a bit of luck, I would suggest that you have 1 obs where you can have vision over Ps natural, if you see templars in a position where you can drop the reaver and shoot them do it, in the end everything comes down to how effective their storms are, in FS for example people will put templars behind their cannons and sometimes near their natural nexus I have won games just by dropping from behind and targetting 1 or 2 templars with a reaver. If a frontal attack is out of the question I would suggest getting shuttle speed, harrassing while teching to storms yourself, storm>reaver in big battles but you need to keep making some early on to stop any 5/6 gate no obs push.
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PvR i go 1g nat gate > zeal pressure, its a standard opener in PvT and PvZ (also turns into a normal game which is good practice).
PvP you need to go core (after 1 zeal) into 2nd gate and defend in front of ur nat gate w/ goons (robo > nexus behind it or 3g allin). Not an ideal spot but it's still playable.
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Hi, I find it hard to get back into starcraft sometimes (I was never an amazing player but still) because I forget the build orders I used to use *before* the meta changed, and it becomes even more difficult after many years when more discoveries are made.
I'm a Zerg player. How have each of the matchups changed in the last couple of years and what would be the go to build order, and what do I have to look out for?
ZvZ: I cannot imagine it changing mutch. Overpools/9pools still being predominant into asap lair and spire?
ZvT: I heard 3 hatch mutalisk has gone out of fashion in preference to 2 hatch mutalisk. Is that because of the maps, and is the modern iteration of 2 hatch muta the same build order as the old, or have there been many developments on it? Is the current trend for terran playing TvZ still the same old jig with a slow starport but more emphasis on marines before a swap into mech, or is that only something you'll see higher on the ladder and most players just sticking to bio and SK styled play?
ZvP: The matchup I have least of a clue about. I heard about some insane hydra build that puts pressure on the protoss while developing economy and fending off corsairs that was popular recently? Is that still the trend? Is protoss still all corsair into templar/zealot builds?
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EPT
