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On March 09 2019 11:59 Anc13nt wrote:
Never really thought about this (it's a bit of an odd question tbh) until now but how should one adjust their game play when latency/tr is bad? I am zerg but I play all 3 races so any help is appreciated.
I play standard at tr16 low or better tr.
Proxi gate tr16 extra high or play standard and bm the shit out of my opponent.... depends basically on my mood.
Just leave at tr8 extra high...
When playing protoss with bad TR shit like 2 fac, 3-4 gate goon, 2 gate zea, 9/9 proxi gate, 6 fac timing, 6 hatch hidra... etc. Become almost unstoppable... goons/reaver which are essential to stop most early aggresion are uncontrolable and trying to break a terran push is a nightmare...
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How is TvP even possible on Overwatch lol?
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On March 24 2019 12:10 Anc13nt wrote:
How is TvP even possible on Overwatch lol?
2 base play, drop ship play with heavy harassment, m&m timings..
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Stopping factory pushes on FS
I (probably am not alone on this) do not like FS!!! I find the small rush distances so frustrating  . Anyway, not posting to whine: Here's my problem - I seem to always struggle to stop terran when they go with their "big" push. I've liked to a game where, I think, I was in a commanding position, but then the terran push happened and I still lost everything :X. Any tips on how to do better?
http://bwreplays.com/k3g63
Here is my analysis:
1) My opponent outclassed me (No shame in that I admit it)
2) I feel like my engages are fairly weak
3) Probably should have payed more attention to macro and tech and should have had arb and stasis earlier (this I think is the BIG one)
4) Perhaps I could have taken him out if I had grouped my whole army and attacked with it? (But that is uncertain and also this is exatly the reason why I find small distances on FS frustrating, no time to group and you cannot surround the terran really) - any tips on that?
Will appreciate any input from you guys, even You suck. but if you say that, at least tell me why and what should I do to do better. The former I know already really well.
Cheers
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So, im shockingly ignorant of basic protoss build orders, because I spent the last 15 years or so barely playing them.
-years back it was pretty common to open 1 gate reaver, or sometimes straight into a dt drop against terran. It seems to me that economically it would also be possible to do 1 gate ob followed by a nex, which would be safe enough against FD [or even a bit threatening since your ob would negate the mines?] and opening in that manner could scare the terran about the other options a quick robo would entail.
Is 1 gate robo ob a thing/why not/what are its weaknesses? I generally only see toss now a days expand off a couple goons pre robo or they go double gate and expand.
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On April 01 2019 01:44 Dazed. wrote:
So, im shockingly ignorant of basic protoss build orders, because I spent the last 15 years or so barely playing them.
-years back it was pretty common to open 1 gate reaver, or sometimes straight into a dt drop against terran. It seems to me that economically it would also be possible to do 1 gate ob, which would be safe enough against FD [or even a bit threatening since your ob would negate the mines?] and opening in that manner could scare the terran about the other options a quick robo would entail.
Is 1 gate robo a thing/why not/what are its weaknesses? I generally only see toss now a days expand off a couple goons pre robo or they go double gate and expand.
Not the strongest player so take this with a grain of salt.
1 gate robo is a thing, but almost never for Observer. In fact, there has been a resurgence of Reaver openings.
The issue is that the 200 minerals for Robo delay your Nexus unnecessarily, when all you really need to hold an FD are Dragoons (no Obs necessary). If you go Robo before Nexus vs. FD and you only get Observers, your Nexus will be later than their CC, giving them the economic lead with no immediate recourse. The point of Reaver is not only to kill SCVs/harass but to keep Terran in their base and worried about defending against it, knowing that you have a Shuttle if they do decide to push (which means you can Zealot bomb and use your Reaver to stop whatever aggression they may have). This translates to keeping Terran sitting at home, which means you can take your 2nd and 3rd shortly after Reaver is out fairly safely, as long as you don't lose it + the Shuttle. If you go Observer with no Reaver, you don't have this luxury. At that juncture, the way I see it you have 3 options, none of which are the best at what they intend to do:
1) Add Support Fac after Obs, using Obs to guide your Reaver. This is sub-optimal because your Reaver is delayed, giving Terran more time to have Turrets up, find out you don't have/have a late natural expansion (and thus be prepared for Reaver play), so on and so forth. Just going straight Reaver is better because there are rarely if ever going to be adequate defenses to outright deny your Reaver unless they somehow scouted your Robo or took a lucky guess/soulread.
2) Add Nexus after Obs. This is sub-optimal largely because of the reasons I mentioned above; you can just do 21/28 Nex and get Nexus before Robo (and earlier) and still reasonably expect to hold FD/Strong FD without the assistance of Obs.
3) Add Gates after Obs. This is perhaps the path that I think makes the most sense, because in the early game the low density of mines that come with an FD means that you can use the Observer to clear them out and then bust the Terran who is likely still on 1 Factory. You can bulldog or just 3 Gate as if you were playing PvP. For this one, I am not sure that t is actually that beneficial to get the Obs, as you can just sacrifice 1-2 Zealots to clear Mines as you bust the Terran (and use a Shuttle to Zealot bomb) but I can at least see more justification for it than for the other two variants. This is, however, very much all-in and if your bust fails to win or do significant damage, you'll be really far behind.
TL;DR: Obs don't give you enough benefits in the early game to outweigh their cost and opportunity cost. Obs-less variants of extant builds are better suited for the same tasks than Obs-first variants, or at the very least don't require Obs to be successful.
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On March 31 2019 23:46 y2k wrote:Stopping factory pushes on FS I (probably am not alone on this) do not like FS!!! I find the small rush distances so frustrating . Anyway, not posting to whine: Here's my problem - I seem to always struggle to stop terran when they go with their "big" push. I've liked to a game where, I think, I was in a commanding position, but then the terran push happened and I still lost everything :X. Any tips on how to do better? http://bwreplays.com/k3g63Here is my analysis: 1) My opponent outclassed me (No shame in that I admit it) 2) I feel like my engages are fairly weak 3) Probably should have payed more attention to macro and tech and should have had arb and stasis earlier (this I think is the BIG one) 4) Perhaps I could have taken him out if I had grouped my whole army and attacked with it? (But that is uncertain and also this is exatly the reason why I find small distances on FS frustrating, no time to group and you cannot surround the terran really) - any tips on that? Will appreciate any input from you guys, even but if you say that, at least tell me why and what should I do to do better. The former I know already really well. Cheers
1. You saw that it was early CC and opted for a Zealot, but your Zealot really didn't do much of anything. You basically set up an execution test for yourself and you didn't pass. In this situation, I would have focused on sniping the bunker SCV first, hitting Marines occasionally while chasing the SCV as it hops over the Bunker while building. However, if you wanted to avoid such a scenario entirely, you could have taken a Range-less Nexus against this without much issue, and then taxed his superior economy once range finishes by forcing him to repair the Bunker. I see that you do this later anyway, but not from an economically comparable position.
2. To follow up you go Robo before range, which isn't necessarily bad, but is setting you further economically behind and basically necessitates that you do damage or double expand after Reaver in order to catch-up. As I said, not necessarily bad, but another execution test you are setting for yourself instead of playing more passive and expanding.
3. Good choice on cutting the Dragoon to get the Shuttle first. I was worried that your earlier Robo would go to waste.
4. You have a Probe parked in the nat well before you can conceivably get a Nexus. This is wasted mining time. If we consider the fact that you got a Pylon at ~40/41 but then didn't make anything past 41 supply before Nexus, we can conclude that you could have gone Nexus before Pylon and had an earlier natural Nexus without losing much.
5. Nice bust! There was a bit of mis-micro, but it still worked out in your favor to an extent. Killing the first 2 Tanks basically delays any potential push from Terran. However, this player is smart and got Wraith to deny your Shuttle. I feel like at this point, you could have just walked into his main and done more damage, such as immediately killing the tank when it Spawns, protecting your Reaver from Wraith better because of more mobility, etc. There wasn't much more damage for you to do in the Natural. Getting your Dragoons trapped was unfortunate, but most importantly you are not doing anything behind this - over 1000 minerals floating could have been a 3rd Nexus, an Observatory+Obs, another Gate, and 2 more Dragoons. You need to work on looking back to your base once every few seconds to make a quick building/send a quick command and then jump right back to your army to continue the micro. Focusing on microing only for 1 minute is again another execution test in which you basically force yourself to gain your advantage purely from micro as opposed to getting economically ahead, which is not as APM or attention-intensive. You did force a lot of lost mining time, so I agree with you, you are ahead at this point.
6. You opt to add 2 Gates and another Shuttle + Reaver, which again says to me that you are trying to win through pressure and not by getting more economically ahead of your opponent. One valuable saying I heard a long time ago is "when you are ahead, get more ahead." May have been Day9, don't remember. Either way, in this case this would entail getting your 3rd Nexus earlier (during your Reaver harass), and transitioning into Arbiter tech. Instead, you opt to stay on mid-game tech to try and kill the Terran outright. Not necessarily a bad thing, but as you can predict I would call this another "execution test" and so far you haven't been quite nailing your multitask even if you are gaining an advantage.
7. Ok now you get Nexus after adding Gates, which doesn't make sense. Your Gateways are idle because you had to save money for Nexus/are supply blocked. You could have done the more standard thing, which is getting the Nexus then adding the Gates as it is coming up to get ready for the boost to economy.
8. Oh wow, you even got Speed. You're definitely committed to doing damage to him, and the first Scarab shot did do a decent amount of damage. Killing another Tank is definitely a plus, but you end up losing the Reaver because you underestimate the power of the Arclite Cannon. Considering you are now floating 1400 Minerals, I'd say that overall this harassment wasn't worth it, and you would have been better off keeping your Shuttle/Reaver as a tactical piece to keep Terran contained and scared to move out. This also delayed your Arbiter tech, so while you are still ahead, I definitely feel like you could have been MORE ahead if you hadn't invested your attention, Shuttle, and resources into this harassment option. Part of the problem is that you were STILL supply blocked the whole time, which means you weren't producing ANY army from those ~2-3 Gates you made somewhat prematurely.
9. You get Forge before Stargate/Templar archives, which puzzles me. There is really no reason to go for Forge BEFORE the important lategame tech you will need. Every second you delay Arbiter is a delayed Stasis/Recall. The amount of room you have available to place this tech is admittedly limited because you don't have enough infrastructure Pylons, but under your Nexus in that corner would have been a good choice IMO.
10. You move out, but your 3rd Nexus is still idle and no Probes have been transferred. Priorities are mixed up in this case. When you went to make that walling Pylon with the Probe, you should have realized that that Nexus was close to being done and transferred Probes right then and there.
11. You attempt another bust, but by this time Terran definitely has far too much for you to be able to bust. CHecking with Observer first would have informed you of this, but you're not scouting adequately and seem to be obsessed with killing this Terran early, to your detriment. You are hemorrhaging army as soon as you have it, and getting increasingly diminishing returns, all while falling behind on economy management and macro. Next time, before an engage, make sure all of your bases are operating appropriately, that you have started the appropriate tech structures, and that you are pumping from all gates; THEN engage. That way you can sort of pre-empt the fact that you are likely to not be able to multitask adequately during the engagement. In this case, you did NOT do enough damage, and now your advantage is practically squandered. If I recall correctly, you went from being ~30 supply up at 50 supply, to being ~20 supply at 70, to being 15 supply at 88, which clearly demonstrates how you continue to lose your advantageous position. Btw, your 3rd Nexus is still not mining despite finishing over a minute ago.
12. Due to all of the squandered advantages, delays in eco and tech, lost Shuttles and Reavers, he now has an army you can't contend with in open space, as well as Vessel out before your Arbiter. The game is basically even now, but depending on how the next engage plays out, I'd say that you could be close to dying.
13. Next engage happens, you lose your Zealots and some Dragoons because you engaged with only 2/3 of your army in a bad position. As a result, supplies are effectively even and you are now disadvantaged because you do not have enough army to fight his at all. To answer the title of your query, "stopping Factory pushes" is dependent on you having enough units to do so, and then after that how well you execute the push break.
14. The push arrives at your natural and now it's GG.
TL;DR: You continuously opt for aggressive options without securing your advantage economically, while also delaying your crucial late-game tech. You squandered your supply and tactical advantage a few times too many, and paid the price. Don't be obsessed with claiming the win off the back of an early game advantage when Terran is in a turtled position; instead, opt to get "more ahead" through solid eco/macro decision-making.
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Txs, Jealous! I'll try to work on that more. The reason why I was trying to end the game early is simple: "I'm just afraid of engaging big terran armies" :D. But I get it, good pointers, perhaps I can improve upon what you have said. Thanks again
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On March 31 2019 23:46 y2k wrote:Stopping factory pushes on FS I (probably am not alone on this) do not like FS!!! I find the small rush distances so frustrating . Anyway, not posting to whine: Here's my problem - I seem to always struggle to stop terran when they go with their "big" push. I've liked to a game where, I think, I was in a commanding position, but then the terran push happened and I still lost everything :X. Any tips on how to do better? http://bwreplays.com/k3g63Here is my analysis: 1) My opponent outclassed me (No shame in that I admit it) 2) I feel like my engages are fairly weak 3) Probably should have payed more attention to macro and tech and should have had arb and stasis earlier (this I think is the BIG one) 4) Perhaps I could have taken him out if I had grouped my whole army and attacked with it? (But that is uncertain and also this is exatly the reason why I find small distances on FS frustrating, no time to group and you cannot surround the terran really) - any tips on that? Will appreciate any input from you guys, even but if you say that, at least tell me why and what should I do to do better. The former I know already really well. Cheers
You had opportunity for surround but problem was you were not attacking him with your whole army. I think if you hotkey your whole army and attack simultaneously the engagement, if would've went a lot better. You positioned your army pretty well but the execution of your attack could be better.
I think main issue with that game though was macro. You're at point where you are spending your money well which is good but when you get 3rd you need to send workers there immediately. I think you didn't send for like 2 minutes, which probably cost you over 1000 minerals (which would've helped you maintain more gate production). Also you stopped building workers for a while, which probably cost you a lot of minerals. There are probably times where it's important to cut workers on 2-3 base but I think as general rule it's better to keep building workers constantly until you have like 70-80 for most games. Also, I think you slightly overbuilt gateways, since you only needed 9-10 gates to deal with the push. If you did all these things, you probably would've had possibly few thousand more minerals to spend on army production. In your situation, I think with better macro, you could've actually been like 180+ supply instead of 130-140. I think with some practice, your apm/mechanics are definitely good enough to macro this well since these adjustments do not require much extra apm but make a world of difference.
I used to think it was enough to spend money well but, while it's hard to believe, the truth is that in a TvP macro game, it's possible for a player to spend well and max at 14+ minutes while another player maxes at around 12-12:30 minutes just by adding production at right time, building workers constantly, and sending workers to new expo asap (in your game situation, it would've taken a few more minutes to max since you went for reaver drop and delayed expansion, which actually payed off pretty well).
I hope you will find advice helpful.
Edit: What Jealous said was good advice as well.
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In PvZ after the Zerg managed to turtle for some time on 4 gases, how do you deal with ultra/ling/defiler doom drops?
You cannot fight their army before that because they would just turtle hard, you might be able to beat it head on, even though it's doubtful, but certainly not when they get a good position and you have to walk up a ramp to fight them.
Is there a specific defense posture that you take in order to prevent this or do you just get around it by not letting the game get to that point altogether (HT drops, mineral line harass, heavy pressure on new bases etc.)?
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On April 04 2019 04:16 y2k wrote:
In PvZ after the Zerg managed to turtle for some time on 4 gases, how do you deal with ultra/ling/defiler doom drops?
You cannot fight their army before that because they would just turtle hard, you might be able to beat it head on, even though it's doubtful, but certainly not when they get a good position and you have to walk up a ramp to fight them.
Is there a specific defense posture that you take in order to prevent this or do you just get around it by not letting the game get to that point altogether (HT drops, mineral line harass, heavy pressure on new bases etc.)?
Not really sure what to say since I deal with doom drops pretty badly but I've seen Bisu leave like 10 zealots and make some cannons in his main. Also it's important to have hts in your outer expansions and shuttle speed reavers to quickly defend bases but the dps of the late game zerg army is so high that the doom drop is pretty strong even if you have a lot of defense.
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On April 04 2019 04:16 y2k wrote:
In PvZ after the Zerg managed to turtle for some time on 4 gases, how do you deal with ultra/ling/defiler doom drops?
You cannot fight their army before that because they would just turtle hard, you might be able to beat it head on, even though it's doubtful, but certainly not when they get a good position and you have to walk up a ramp to fight them.
Is there a specific defense posture that you take in order to prevent this or do you just get around it by not letting the game get to that point altogether (HT drops, mineral line harass, heavy pressure on new bases etc.)?
In my experience, there are the things that help the most:
1. Once you recognize it is 4 base turtle Zerg, try to position yourself such that you can split map late game. They are turtling, you are expanding.
2. Make back-up tech if you think you might lose it to the first drop once it lands.
3. This point is probably the most important. Keep sair count high and active. This helps with both prevention and clean-up. In the late game, getting a second Stargate isn't a bad idea in case they decide to invest in air to supplement drops or just to Guardian your gasses with Devourer support.
4. Once you know they are doing drops, make cannons and leave templar in your main. This can seriously hurt drops or outright deny them.
5. Don't overcommit to the clear. Don't try to shovel your whole army into your main because that is the easiest way to lose 2 bases in 20 seconds elsewhere because you relinquished map control.
6. 2 speed shuttles with reavers should be part of your ideal lategame composition anyway afaik, but they also work great for defending drops.
PvZ is definitely my weakest main MU but these are things that I have either observed, done, or been suggested.
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Also, if zerg gets to 4+ base, their economy is so good that it's pretty hard to stop them from making a large army even if you do a lot of storm drops. The things you mentioned like HT drop, heavy pressure on new bases are both important but I don't think it's generally possible to prevent a hive zerg from doom dropping if they really want to (unless you still have a sair stack but that isn't super common in late game unless they're making guardians).
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on my end as a zerg i think 4 base turtle is really exploitable. Take a map like fs, you can park an army that scares me into sunkening a bit more right at the bridge, walking back and forth between my naturals, while you take a third and a fourth more or less uncontested. By the time hive+adrenal etc upgrades are onboard, the protoss should of already maxed a few minutes prior or more or less at the same time, right? Should be relatively simple to gauge where a doom drops flight path would come from-- square map, you keep an army near one base, corsairs near the other, a scouting zealot on whatever path you cant directly see...if he just runs at you with a drop it should be interceptable.
I dont think handling doom drops from a four base turtle is any harder than handling doom drops generally, if anything, the gameplan from the zerg being so passive and clear, it should be easier to dot all your I's, cross all your T's and set yourself up for a stable late game.
edit: any zerg so confident in his macro that he turtles hard is likely to be more proficient at defilier ling shenanigans than a big drop anyway.
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Is using Stasis as a counter to Ultralisks a dumb idea?
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On April 04 2019 12:20 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Is using Stasis as a counter to Ultralisks a dumb idea?
Yes.
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Why do my dragoons sometimes stop up without me being able to move them for a few seconds? I noticed this during some games and it would help me to avoid it if i knew why they do that.
For example i click "Move" or "Attack" many times in a a short period of time and then some of the dragoons just stop responding for a few seconds, and i have to mark them again and click move a few times for them to become active again.
It just looks so weird.
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On April 05 2019 00:50 Jan1997 wrote:
Why do my dragoons sometimes stop up without me being able to move them for a few seconds? I noticed this during some games and it would help me to avoid it if i knew why they do that.
For example i click "Move" or "Attack" many times in a a short period of time and then some of the dragoons just stop responding for a few seconds, and i have to mark them again and click move a few times for them to become active again.
It just looks so weird.
This is because you targeted an enemy that exited the Dragoon's range mid-firing animation, which makes it stuck. To unstick you can either press "S" (stop) or move them backwards (IIRC).
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On April 04 2019 12:20 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Is using Stasis as a counter to Ultralisks a dumb idea?
not really why not it works sometimes just need not to be gas starved & protect arbiter. it takes not having a disadvantage in the late game vs Z which is the not easy part I guess. I make recalls in pvz too it's great, if you have a slight advantage or at least no disadvantage. (ofc scourges is the problem of arbiter since its rather slow but just keep it escorted most of the time / with army or in defense. you may escort arbiter near a cliff and recall up to dodge the whole sunk/lurk defense for example)
[i think most Ps know this but remember if you are equal in supply vs Z, you are at disadvantage]
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I remember using a very detailed spreadsheet on unit stats a few months ago. It included sight range for every building, unit DPS and all sorts of other things. It also had great filtering options. The problem is I can't find it anymore. Can anyone provide the link or knows what I'm talking about? Thanks 
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EPT
