EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 231
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
On October 20 2015 03:25 Ty2 wrote: Oh, LetaBot, I made some edits to my post, could you reread again please? I did, I am going to see how many I can get implemented. Ill be back in 23:00 CEST in case you want to test them. edit: going to wrap these techniques up tomorrow. Then you can test them if you want. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
For example, compare attack speed of Hydralisk between games. In BW, hydra has a cooldown of 15, and after converting it to real time we get something around 0.63. In SC2 the attack cooldown of a hydralisk is 0.75, according to Liquipedia. Now my question is, is it the real time, or SC2 normal time? If real time, then hydralisk in SC2 attacks slower then the one in Brood War, if its normal time, it has to be reduced according to the faster/normal modifier, which is 1.38/1 I believe, which would put SC2 hydralisk at around 0.54, and faster then BW hydralisk. Which one is the correct one? Can anyone help? | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
On October 31 2015 20:51 [[Starlight]] wrote: For very early pool in ZvP, why is it always 5 pool, and never 4 pool? Found a possible answer recently by chance in this great thread of CharlieMurphy: Usage of 4 & 5 Pools: As most of you are probably already aware, 4 and 5 pools work almost equally for ZvT, and ZvZ, yet for ZvP only 5 pool works. This may be due to the fact that a few second earlier lings make no difference in the early game Protoss defense, and that most ZvP games do not (usually can not) win early game. The exceptions of early game wins may be regarded as flukes, where the Protoss made a fatal risky build order/micro mistake. The thread contains a nice collection of 4pools and 5pools in professional games. The win % of 4pool in TvZ is sick (edit: also of 5pool in PvZ, even higher), but that's because it's so rarely used and thus suprises even progamers. | ||
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jayjaywalker3
United States15 Posts
I searched the forums and the wiki but I decided that all of it is too much. I'm sending them a link to the Beginner Strategy wiki page for further reading if they desire. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
For T I would probably use 2 Fac for mech or 2 Rax for bio. For P 2 gate is probably the best. 2 Gate, for Z probably Overpool or 9 Pool. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
terran opens with 2 rax into either factories, more rax or expo zerg is 9 pool toss is 2 gate 1v1 builds terran is 1 rax fe zerg is 9 pool or 12 hatch toss is 1 gate fe or forge expo vs zerg | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On October 31 2015 20:51 [[Starlight]] wrote: For very early pool in ZvP, why is it always 5 pool, and never 4 pool? I'm not sure, I would have to do some testing. But maybe it has something to do with the fact that the first nexus only gives 9 supply whereas a CC gives 10? Combine this with the fact that SCVs have more health, you'll want to attack as soon as possible (4 pool faster than 5 pool, how much?). Whereas due to the building of a pylon it might be that there's no difference in the amount of probes when 4 pool zerglings arrive vs 5 pool zerglings. This would then make 5 pool superior compared to 4 pool due to the better economy. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
5 pool: lings spawn at 1.55 crossspawn => in base by 2.35 close spawn => in base by 2.25 Overlord is also not in range to scout first position (if protoss would be one basing, you would not know) However, much stronger economy means you can more easily scout with one drone (6 drones total) 4 pool: lings spawn at 1.50 close spawn => in base by 2.20 Overlord is no where in range to scout the first position (if protoss would be one basing, you would not know) Very weak economy, scouting with one drone will delay 3rd pair of lings and you will only be able to scout one position before you have to make a decision where to send your lings. Conclusion: On Fighting spirit I think it's a bad idea to go 4 pool unless you're a gambling man. There's a high probability that you will have to send your lings cross-spawn only to discover that he's actually at the other final location. This basically negates any advantage in timing that you would have with a 4 pool. Furthermore: If protoss does the following safe/standard build order he should be safe against both 4 pool and 5 pool granted that he pulls some probes to block the zerglings from entering his main/taking out the photon cannon: 8 pylon => scout with probe 10 forge => scout with probe When forge finishes 1/2 cannon, then gateway. Cannon finishes around 2.30. If you have like 7-8 probes there, you should be able to block the zerglings for the couple of seconds that the cannon would need to finish. The only situation where this might fail is vs a 4 pool with opportune scouting, meaning his zerglings would be able to arrive at 2.20. Here it might be necessary as Bakuryu says to make a pylon and photon cannon in main. The good thing is that when you double scout, you will always see the strategy coming in time. Also thank you Bakuryu for you answer, that makes a lot of sense. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On November 13 2015 19:35 Bakuryu wrote: ...in zvp protoss normally ends up sacrificing nat and cannoning up main, so he has only cannons and many probes, where you as zerg also has to macro. his cannon timing depends on when he scouts you, and the difference between 4 and 5 pool has basically no influence on that (except maybe really big maps or protoss cross scouting first and finding zerg directly) Thanks. Where I get confused is this: If P scouts a 4/5 pool coming, they can give up the Fast Expand for the moment and fall back to their main, putting a pylon there, and then a cannon in the mineral line (just as you say). Even a 4-pool probably can't get to the P main in time to beat the cannon, so 4- and 5-pool are all the same offensively there, and 5-pool gives better economy. All well and good. BUT, 4/5 pool comes very early, and it takes significant time to warp in a pylon and then a cannon in P's main (with Forge FE, 1st pylon is at nat). On 2p maps it's fine, if P pylon-scouts he'll see early-pool coming in time to get that stuff up in his main. But on a 4p map, not so much. P would seem to have to be lucky and scout the zerg on his first try (out of 3). Otherwise, not enough warning time to get stuff up in his main in time. P could do things like scout with his 5th probe or double pylon-scout, but of course that hurts his economy and delays his cannon(s) going up. So, seems like at least some of the time P has to defend the rush at his natural, i.e. do a big probe pull and buy the cannon at his nat enough time to warp in. Have certainly seen a number of pro games where this was the case. So in those cases, why wouldn't 4 pool be potentially better? Z would be there earlier, putting more pressure on the probe pull and getting more probe kills. Z would also have a better chance of killing the natural cannon before it warps in or getting to run into the main, which wouldn't have a cannon up in those cases. I can see why 5 pool would always be better on 2p maps, but not 4p. What am I missing?  | ||
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dr0pship
Canada520 Posts
My hands/wrists get sore after 3-4 games at 200apm. I do all the normal things like stretching, ergonomic desk etc | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On November 13 2015 20:30 B-royal wrote: I did some testing on Fighting Spirit 5 pool: lings spawn at 1.55 crossspawn => in base by 2.35 close spawn => in base by 2.25 Overlord is also not in range to scout first position (if protoss would be one basing, you would not know) However, much stronger economy means you can more easily scout with one drone (6 drones total) 4 pool: lings spawn at 1.50 close spawn => in base by 2.20 Overlord is no where in range to scout the first position (if protoss would be one basing, you would not know) Very weak economy, scouting with one drone will delay 3rd pair of lings and you will only be able to scout one position before you have to make a decision where to send your lings. Conclusion: On Fighting spirit I think it's a bad idea to go 4 pool unless you're a gambling man. There's a high probability that you will have to send your lings cross-spawn only to discover that he's actually at the other final location. This basically negates any advantage in timing that you would have with a 4 pool. Bear in mind that Forge FE is an extremely common BO for P. Which leaves tell-tale P buildings very early on at the natural. So, you send your ovie towards the nearest natural that's not your own. This is almost always considerably closer than their main, so your ovie WILL have time to eliminate or find an enemy (natural) starting position by the time your 4/5 pool lings are streaming out of your own natural. So, as long as you drone-scouted in time to eliminate or find one other start position, you're golden even on 4p maps. You'll know where he is in time, unless he one-based, which doesn't seem to be that popular in PvZ. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On November 14 2015 14:28 9heart wrote: How are progamers like Bisu, Hiya, Effort, Hero (400+apm players) able to maintain their practice without wrist problems? My hands/wrists get sore after 3-4 games at 200apm. I do all the normal things like stretching, ergonomic desk etc you need to have a body like NaDa's. | ||
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dr0pship
Canada520 Posts
Thanks bud. New thread title: Simple questions, useless answers. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
On November 14 2015 23:33 9heart wrote: Thanks bud. New thread title: Simple questions, useless answers. more like you just simply dismiss a simple subtle answer as useless. sigh | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
On November 14 2015 23:33 9heart wrote: Thanks bud. New thread title: Simple questions, useless answers. lol i dunno wtf an ergonomic desk is supposed to look like, but you probably have bad wrist posture. i have played apm intensive games all my life and ive never had wrist discomfort. not that i actually take extra care into my wrist posture, but still, i must be doing something right. | ||
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Scarbo
294 Posts
On November 14 2015 14:28 9heart wrote: How are progamers like Bisu, Hiya, Effort, Hero (400+apm players) able to maintain their practice without wrist problems? My hands/wrists get sore after 3-4 games at 200apm. I do all the normal things like stretching, ergonomic desk etc It's a matter of practice. When I started out it was really taxing to play long games but it went away after a while. | ||
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