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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 22 2004 20:27 RuGbUg wrote: Show nested quote +On October 18 2004 20:38 Dave307 wrote: On October 17 2004 16:25 RuGbUg wrote: On October 17 2004 02:41 ret wrote:
those hydra strats will not kill a GOOD toss player performing this strat, best is to power hard with a spore colony and get lurker/spire/ol speed/then drop (all of it) , take ur natural , and then just do whatever is needed to kill him, go hive or take islands or macro, but fast hive is always nice with islands ( cracklings/ultra ) -,-; do mass crackling drops on his main and harass him etc etc, prevent him from taking other mains by having a group of lings patrol and targeting probes etc..typical zvp are you kidding? a 3 hatch hydra who then later upgrades overlord speed will rape asshole of an early dt/sair. it may not kill them because they put a shitload of cannons but it sure as hell will halt them for the longest time yes until they switch and go templar/zealot while you have ling/hydra, which is nothx. a good toss player never goes sair/dt for long until he gets his exp, and imo thats what sair dt is for. and we all know how deadly one sair and one dt is, definitely worth the teching, gas, and wast- well use of time.
You have obviously never seen anyone proficent use it.
I usually make 2 dts btw, 1 for offense then one in case I blunder.
1 sair+1dt can raise hell -.- you just gotta have good dt control and good multitask.
It sure as hell fucking RAPES zergs going for mass hydra before lair =[! (Or whatever you suggested).
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 18 2004 05:34 PrinCe (H) wrote:
if a protoss uses 2 gates vs me I know the game is won.
1 gates makes me wanna rush to den and lair because I do not wish to die to some early core strats.
50% of my zvp games are vs Strafe(yeye brag brag but this might indicate the level of protoss), he still uses 2 gate but not as often as he used to do. Because the protoss always has to catch up on the zerg when his "rush" fails (90% of the time).
And saying it will stop me from making 10000 drones or 10 expands is bullshit. The only real way to hurt my eco is zealots + probes (at least 3). If you make a micromistake you lose your zealots and your probes which will hurt your eco/tech even more than a regular 2 gate build.
"The game is won".
Sorry prince but that is DUMB. 2 gate is an absolutely great opening, you are not behind unless you fuck up --
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Sweden33719 Posts
And it's not like a toss has to do a hardcore rush when 2 gating..
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Maybe Prince was referring to the level of Toss he plays compared to his level. I am sure that he is not talking about Reach's 2 gate but rather, other Toss. On Lost Temple perhaps, and I am only speculating here, that Prince is very confident against Toss who try to play him straight up with a 2 gate as they each are no Reach, and he is Zerg on Lost Temple. Would you buy that, FrozenArbiter?
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are hydras really worth it? Im honestly in conflict with going like, say Lurker/ling or muta/ling with just going hydras, i knpow their great in mass, but, unles yu've expoe'd like 2/3 of the map, its reall hard do win with
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ive had the same prediciment, 4 lurkers greatlyh outweight 8 hydra, if not more, but in mass the hdra are insane. Its crazy
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On October 23 2004 19:34 kloownz wrote:
are hydras really worth it? Im honestly in conflict with going like, say Lurker/ling or muta/ling with just going hydras, i knpow their great in mass, but, unles yu've expoe'd like 2/3 of the map, its reall hard do win with
going pure hydra is retarded you absolutlely have to put some sort of unit with it, whether its ling lurker, or hell even muta(but that is a huge ass amount of gas/mineral) if you go pure hydra the toss will go zeal/HT and own you. Also you must take into consideration that without harass, your giving the toss whatever he wants because you can't just hrass with 4-8 hydra. Which means hydra sucks in low numbers. and thats why hydra are a bad harassing tool.
In result:
Good Zerg=Not pure hydra
Good Toss seeing pure hydra= mass ht/zeal
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On October 23 2004 22:12 Dave307 wrote: Show nested quote +On October 23 2004 19:34 kloownz wrote:
are hydras really worth it? Im honestly in conflict with going like, say Lurker/ling or muta/ling with just going hydras, i knpow their great in mass, but, unles yu've expoe'd like 2/3 of the map, its reall hard do win with going pure hydra is retarded you absolutlely have to put some sort of unit with it, whether its ling lurker, or hell even muta(but that is a huge ass amount of gas/mineral) if you go pure hydra the toss will go zeal/HT and own you. Also you must take into consideration that without harass, your giving the toss whatever he wants because you can't just hrass with 4-8 hydra. Which means hydra sucks in low numbers. and thats why hydra are a bad harassing tool. In result: Good Zerg=Not pure hydra Good Toss seeing pure hydra= mass ht/zeal
agreed.
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Korea (South)1740 Posts
i can't agree with the thought that 1 gate is the only real viable opening in pvzs, much as i can't agree that late lair is bad as z-- technical z's are all the rage but a massing z that goes late lair but pumps massive drones, expands alot and gets huge ling/hydra army in the early-mid stages to win the ground war and take map control (seems to me mondragon plays this way in zvps, though i might be wrong) is just as effective ^^;; alot of zerg users tend to "follow the tech" when they see a fast tech build for toss-- but imo it's also perfectly acceptable to win the economic and troop war initially and follow the tech later.
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i can't agree with the thought that 1 gate is the only real viable opening in pvzs
that's right.
I remember a former leader of wgtour ladder (you guys shoud remember his name) playing Z that almost never lost against a 1gate opening toss.
With my pathetic skills, I tried his strat... waoh very nice!
If you know there is only 1 gate, around 13 go only for ling until 18. research speedling when 100gaz. Then remove workers from gaz. Over. then ling. Assuming gaz at 13, speedling should be finished by the time you engage lots on his ramp.
He said that 1 gate could not resist to ling harrasment with speed.
About sair/dt, I'd say his DT comes out around 30 seconds after you break his ramp.
That's enough time to bring havoc in his main...
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Sweden33719 Posts
Julyzerg rapes 1 gate like that =[!
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 23 2004 17:32 rednob wrote:
Maybe Prince was referring to the level of Toss he plays compared to his level. I am sure that he is not talking about Reach's 2 gate but rather, other Toss. On Lost Temple perhaps, and I am only speculating here, that Prince is very confident against Toss who try to play him straight up with a 2 gate as they each are no Reach, and he is Zerg on Lost Temple. Would you buy that, FrozenArbiter?
No, I don't think prince would put himself that low on the skill level ladder 
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when I sair/dt I make a second gate in time to beat ling harass. Only delays sair by a few seconds, but gets you the extra zealot production in time to hold your ramp against any kind of ling attack. Since so many zergs try to break your ramp when you tech, delaying your sair for the gate is worth it about 80% of the time, because zerg delayed his sair defenses by a lot more, or really sacrificed his economy. I'd say I start out ahead of my zerg opponent in about 70% of my games.
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i hate when toss goes... sairs than 3 gate fast zels... and u are powering hard like ret sayed then you are dead...
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1 gate is weak. I always do HT killing with 4-6 hydras. For me you can take your mineral very easily. For me 2 gate is better and worse, because i play zerg  1 gate is tech or exp. It is easy for me to outmacro very fast and kill some HT in the fight and take a map. The big question is, are you afraid of your type of play or you play as you want it if there is 1 gate. DT/Sairs must be done perfectly, other way it will be completly waste of time and money.
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When someone goes 3 gates zeal/temp after corsairs so it means he does 1 gate, I do 1 attack for my hydras and ASAP I do my carpace. Then speed for ovies and mass hydra ling and go to ultra/ling or ling defilers with plague. If there is many of archons then hydra/defiler. Very easy for zerg to change units.
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use overlord to detect dt (they are there, why not use them???). make hydras. general rule is hydra>dt. and sair cannot hurt hydra, but watch out b/c they can kill your lords. so its a tad bit tricky but you have to micro your hydra to attack sairs instead of dt.
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On October 17 2004 02:41 ret wrote:
those hydra strats will not kill a GOOD toss player performing this strat, best is to power hard with a spore colony and get lurker/spire/ol speed/then drop (all of it) , take ur natural , and then just do whatever is needed to kill him, go hive or take islands or macro, but fast hive is always nice with islands ( cracklings/ultra ) -,-; do mass crackling drops on his main and harass him etc etc, prevent him from taking other mains by having a group of lings patrol and targeting probes etc..typical zvp
I read thru this whole topic and I'm just wondering if THIS one that ret said is the way to beating sair/dt? And if it is and u get lurks do u still have to have a few hydras around for sairs? Cuz u need the lords with u for the dts. And so if u get hydras do u get any ups like range and faster movement or just upgrade lurker only? Also with the lurker would speedlings be good? All he said was lurker and never mentioned which supporting units i should use with the lurks.
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lurks/hydra build sound really good imo
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Hydra/ovie, its really not that difficult.
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EPT
