While I love this build, the reason what Hiya did worked was not because bio became suddenly more viable at high level. He was doing the classic Deep Six Build, which is a counter to a fast 3rd, which was what Violet was doing. The additional bonus is that m&m are highly effective against carriers because they eat interceptors. Violets failure to make more HT/goons instead of DTs and interceptors made it look more viable than it had to be imo. Same for skimping cannons.

However we're not all progamers and thus we can play bio and love it =)

julealgon

Brazil120 Posts

May 03 2018 00:42 GMT

#163

Folks, I know this thread is more than 7 years old, please don't kill me.

I was watching the Nal_Ra vs UpMagic game again (the one linked in the OP) and wondering if we had any more recent games showcasing this strategy or a variation of it.

In particular, every time I remember that game, I think about ghosts with lockdown. Imagine if it would be possible to integrate lots of ghosts in the army to lockdown shuttles/reavers/arbiters/carriers. Yes, ghosts are ultra fragile, but they have great range too, especially with the range upgrade. Also, one could use some defense matrix on key ghosts during/before battle (similar to how some people use dmatrix on firebats vs zerg).

From.what I could see throughout the years, m&m vs protoss is incredibly rare to see, especially when the marine range is upgraded before tank. In all those years, I've never seen ONE game with this strategy that progresses into ghost play and multiple vessels, but maybe there is something that was streamed?

Is anyone willing to try some ghosts or have any recent videos of a strategy similar to this to share?

I was never a good SC player (played a few games against some friends and low level ICCUP a few years ago) but I've always followed pretty much all official tournaments and absolutely loved theorycrafting about weird builds like this. I'm absolutely a fan of ghosts and think they are incredibly underused. Every time I see a Terran progame I wait for the moment when ghosts are made, but it never comes

Watching a few games with m&m AND ghosts vs Protoss would be incredible.

Jealous

10361 Posts

May 03 2018 02:10 GMT

#164

On May 03 2018 09:42 julealgon wrote:
Folks, I know this thread is more than 7 years old, please don't kill me.

I was watching the Nal_Ra vs UpMagic game again (the one linked in the OP) and wondering if we had any more recent games showcasing this strategy or a variation of it.

In particular, every time I remember that game, I think about ghosts with lockdown. Imagine if it would be possible to integrate lots of ghosts in the army to lockdown shuttles/reavers/arbiters/carriers. Yes, ghosts are ultra fragile, but they have great range too, especially with the range upgrade. Also, one could use some defense matrix on key ghosts during/before battle (similar to how some people use dmatrix on firebats vs zerg).

From.what I could see throughout the years, m&m vs protoss is incredibly rare to see, especially when the marine range is upgraded before tank. In all those years, I've never seen ONE game with this strategy that progresses into ghost play and multiple vessels, but maybe there is something that was streamed?

Is anyone willing to try some ghosts or have any recent videos of a strategy similar to this to share?

I was never a good SC player (played a few games against some friends and low level ICCUP a few years ago) but I've always followed pretty much all official tournaments and absolutely loved theorycrafting about weird builds like this. I'm absolutely a fan of ghosts and think they are incredibly underused. Every time I see a Terran progame I wait for the moment when ghosts are made, but it never comes

Watching a few games with m&m AND ghosts vs Protoss would be incredible.

There is a Boxer game where he uses Ghosts to lockdown Arbiters before they can enter the main. I don't remember much else about the game unfortunately so if someone remembers this game, that would be great.

The biggest issue with M&M and Ghost play is that the two are practically anachronistic in terms of gameflow. M&M, as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, have a very niche and limited efficacy in the TvP match-up. Once they are revealed, they become less and less effective over time against Protoss.

Ghosts come into the game extremely late, and the amount of time and gas that it would take to build Ghosts, have them raise enough energy to cast Lockdown even once, and research Lockdown make them an insane investment. Such a heavy gas investment does not mix well with the transition to Mech + the need for Science Vessels (with their own research costs included).

In other words, there are no viable ways that I know of that keep M&M relevant and alive long enough to allow them to mix in with Ghosts with any efficacy. Ghosts are too much of an investment and detract from a meching Terran. Thus, combat Ghosts seem to have no place in TvP at all, and their use as defensive or harassment (Nuke) units have very few pro examples.

If you enjoy Ghost usage in general, I recommend this game:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36871_free_vs_HiyA/vod

GTR

51684 Posts

May 03 2018 09:56 GMT

#165

the boxer lockdown rush game was vs free on othello

Jealous

10361 Posts

May 03 2018 13:01 GMT

#166

On May 03 2018 18:56 GTR wrote:
the boxer lockdown rush game was vs free on othello
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesPEurGAvA

Lmao why free tho, what did he ever do to these Terrans

Cryoc

Germany914 Posts

May 03 2018 18:02 GMT

#167

The most recent offline game I remember, where a Terran tried ghosts to counter carriers, was Mong vs Tyson in SSL9 from 4 years ago:

But it wasn't successful at all. Carriers have a higher attack range than lockdown, so ghosts are not really a counter to carriers. They also get one shotted by upgraded DTs so you don't even get a notification. In conclusion by incorporating ghosts in your army you have a lot more to do as Terran for the slight hope that you might get a lockdown off if the Protoss doesn't pay attention to his army.

funnybananaman

United States830 Posts

May 03 2018 20:12 GMT

#168

I use m&m vs toss all the time with success on iccup. the key is not dying to goon pressure early, and making the toss take as long as possible to mask and scout what you are doing. OP's build is pretty risky, but you can also try opening up a 1-fac CC with siege which is very safe, then throwing down 3-6 rax and going for a large 2base m&m and siege tank bust. Or if your opponent is noob, and played some unagressive PvT strategy like 1 gate nexus, or 1 gate core nexus, you can sometimes win by staying at 1 base and getting 3rax, stim u238 and academy. That build is good for timing vs toss who can get storm to counter a 2base-deep-6 timing, but can't get it in time to counter 1 base. This build is susceptible for losing to early reavers from toss plus 2gate goon though which just tear it apart. They key for terran is to scout toss number 1, and feint non-aggression before going hyper-aggression and make toss think you are doing opposite strategy of m&m rush before busting his natural and him being caught by surprise. once arbiter play is introduced, ghost play is a good counter with lockdown but you don't want to be rushing to lockdown before the toss has anything but goons and high templar since it just isn't cost effective.

User was warned for this post.

Jealous

10361 Posts

May 04 2018 08:21 GMT

#169

EDIT: Nvm.

Kau

Canada3502 Posts

May 05 2018 04:12 GMT

#170

I thought the ghost lockdowning the arbiter game you were thinking about was free vs hiya on triathlon:

17:38 was the lockdown

ProMeTheus112

France2027 Posts

May 05 2018 12:43 GMT

#171

TL moderation is GARBAGE :D

Jealous

10361 Posts

May 05 2018 17:11 GMT

#172

On May 05 2018 13:12 Kau wrote:
I thought the ghost lockdowning the arbiter game you were thinking about was free vs hiya on triathlon:

17:38 was the lockdown

There were multiple! I linked this one above as this is by far the most famous example for sure.

What a friggin game. Never been a big Hiya fan but I have to give him props for creating possibly one of the most iconic "WTF" games in BW's latter history. Just when you thought that wacky stuff was no longer viable or only possible in one-sided stomps, Hiya showed us that being crazy can still work. Major props.

BLinD-RawR

ALLEYCAT BLUES51289 Posts

May 05 2018 17:25 GMT

#173

On May 05 2018 21:43 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
TL moderation is GARBAGE :D

if you have an issue with TL's Moderation you can create a thread in Website Feedback http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/

kogeT

Poland2042 Posts

May 06 2018 09:42 GMT

#174

On May 05 2018 13:12 Kau wrote:
I thought the ghost lockdowning the arbiter game you were thinking about was free vs hiya on triathlon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfnA7Q3AjUg
17:38 was the lockdown

Lol, I've seen that game long time ago and it's still one of the most impressive TvP games ever. But what I missed from last time is that free mind controls those neutral arbiters and they come with full energy. :D