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This is so fun! I only make 3 barracks . It's not that hard to get a decent turret spread and cover your whole base with 5 or so. I killed his 3rd quite easily but forgot to tech to vessels (this build is pretty APM intensive, but so fun!!) so he spammed DTs and arbs .
I will continue using this hybrid. The way I see it you are basically replacing vultures with M+M which have a higher DPS and more cost effective. I was doing it with +1 armor before my push, so it's about 12 tanks and 2 control groups of marines and a couple Fbats .
Forgot to mention that I guess this is not in the true spirit of your build, I was going off a siege expand, making pure tanks from 2 fact . So, I didnt hold them off with a bunker so they never had a chance to know what I was doing. But still, your thread is a good inspiration that has reminded me to just try shit.
Valks to defend carriers? With an EMP 3 or 4 should make fast work...
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Carriers are pretty easy with bio due to stimmed marines' ridiculous DPS and untyped damage, which chews through interceptors.
Marines and valks do crap damage to carriers due to carriers' four base armor, however. It's much better to kill the interceptors, and not bother with valkyries.
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On September 05 2010 04:37 Severedevil wrote:
Carriers are pretty easy with bio due to stimmed marines' ridiculous DPS and untyped damage, which chews through interceptors.
Marines and valks do crap damage to carriers due to carriers' four base armor, however. It's much better to kill the interceptors, and not bother with valkyries.
Ah sorry I just meant in general and not with this build, just to illustrate this idea has got me thinking up small nick nacks.
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I have a replay of my idea but repdepot is saying it is corrupted?! strange.
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Best vs classic was a great game, he had a nice timing for his +1 armor which negated dts 1 shoting marines, as well as making zealots and dragons need one extra shot to kill a marine.
I find this build pretty fun, granted im terrible but it is fun to play bio vs toss if their reaver control isn't godly.
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D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss.
This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht?
Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?)
When's the latest you usually tech?
EDIT:
forgot replay link
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=37916
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On September 05 2010 19:12 Thesecretaznman wrote:D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss. This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht? Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?) When's the latest you usually tech? EDIT: forgot replay link http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=37916
I'm rebuilding my system today - I should be able to watch your replay afterwards.
I don't forgo tech unless I think I can win with a big bio push. Otherwise I'll start my factory after 4rax. Even if you don't scout anything except zealot/goon from the toss, it's a good idea to have tanks to fall back on when your infantry are overextending themselves and you need to wait for reinforcements. It's also good to have a dropship or science vessel in production to cause distraction and to deal with DTs. I generally don't like to push unless I know I have enough scans to last me until a vessel is out, so time your factory accordingly and save scans when possible.
If the toss doesn't take his 3rd, you should still be near even on population since you've been amassing infantry the entire game. There's always a chance the toss has a hidden expansion and unless you're scanning for it this may throw off your timing. As long as you're watching for a 3rd or a tech switch, massing units will favor you. Roll out when you have many tanks and 3-4 control groups of marines so that you can take your 3rd anyway. It's good to exchange armies when the fight is tremendously in your favor - toss needs reaver/HT to keep it even since zealot/goon will melt to mass stim/tank.
I'll watch later. Probably your macro.
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I think it's clear bio TvP is not better than mech, obviously. And a range FE build isn't going to suddenly make it viable. That being said, it's an interesting build that could be used in a best of series, but is pretty difficult to pull off. I would never log onto iccup and ladder using this as my standard, so if that's what people are looking for imo just walk away with the 1 fact siege FE.
Imo if you want to bio, you could 1 rax FE and then instead of getting natural gas add more rax first.
Pretty in-depth build I'll try it on a smurf and post results here.
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On September 06 2010 07:00 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Imo if you want to bio, you could 1 rax FE and then instead of getting natural gas add more rax first.
mmp's build does this already. Obviously you don't need two geysers to pump marines.
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Sorry for not being clear, I mean 1 rax fe, fact then +3 rax, eventually into deep6. I find tanks an important part of a mnm push.
I haven't been able to look at every rep, so can someone show me games vs a DT FE, DT rush, DT drop, 1 gate reaver, and speed shuttle with reaver? These builds in my mind seem to be able to counter the range FE
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Yeah but the thing about scanners is he can make make you waste them by running away or sending them in 1 at a time.
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On September 05 2010 22:51 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 19:12 Thesecretaznman wrote:D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss. This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht? Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?) When's the latest you usually tech? EDIT: forgot replay link http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=37916 I'm rebuilding my system today - I should be able to watch your replay afterwards. I don't forgo tech unless I think I can win with a big bio push. Otherwise I'll start my factory after 4rax. Even if you don't scout anything except zealot/goon from the toss, it's a good idea to have tanks to fall back on when your infantry are overextending themselves and you need to wait for reinforcements. It's also good to have a dropship or science vessel in production to cause distraction and to deal with DTs. I generally don't like to push unless I know I have enough scans to last me until a vessel is out, so time your factory accordingly and save scans when possible. If the toss doesn't take his 3rd, you should still be near even on population since you've been amassing infantry the entire game. There's always a chance the toss has a hidden expansion and unless you're scanning for it this may throw off your timing. As long as you're watching for a 3rd or a tech switch, massing units will favor you. Roll out when you have many tanks and 3-4 control groups of marines so that you can take your 3rd anyway. It's good to exchange armies when the fight is tremendously in your favor - toss needs reaver/HT to keep it even since zealot/goon will melt to mass stim/tank. I'll watch later. Probably your macro.
Yeah, I just watched and that was terribad.
You didn't build the CC on spot.
You didn't use your scans actively.
You jumped to 3rax too soon considering you had 3 on gas (the build tells you to take some off until you start your fac).
You shouldn't push so early when your opponent is keeping up on units (your opponent stayed on 3gates before taking a 3rd). The 4rax --> fac timing I recommend in the build order is fine.
Your macro missed a lot of production cycles.
Your micro and rally points sent many units to a vain death.
You retreated when you were winning a battle against goons.
In whole your tech was slow to come out, and if you hadn't lost fights the entire game and continued macroing you could have steamrolled this guy on the first try - nice EMP and HT snipes fwiw, but too little too late. You also need to control your army much better.
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Couple questions. Why do you say to build CC at nat? I find hiding the fact I'm even rax expoing best. 2nd, are we walling the main? The few games I did it were vs noobs so I won't bother posting but I walled, and then after rax made 2 marine lifted to the nat and made a semi wall with bunker+rax and then put the CC down.
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On September 07 2010 06:24 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 22:51 mmp wrote:On September 05 2010 19:12 Thesecretaznman wrote:D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss. This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht? Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?) When's the latest you usually tech? EDIT: forgot replay link http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=37916 I'm rebuilding my system today - I should be able to watch your replay afterwards. I don't forgo tech unless I think I can win with a big bio push. Otherwise I'll start my factory after 4rax. Even if you don't scout anything except zealot/goon from the toss, it's a good idea to have tanks to fall back on when your infantry are overextending themselves and you need to wait for reinforcements. It's also good to have a dropship or science vessel in production to cause distraction and to deal with DTs. I generally don't like to push unless I know I have enough scans to last me until a vessel is out, so time your factory accordingly and save scans when possible. If the toss doesn't take his 3rd, you should still be near even on population since you've been amassing infantry the entire game. There's always a chance the toss has a hidden expansion and unless you're scanning for it this may throw off your timing. As long as you're watching for a 3rd or a tech switch, massing units will favor you. Roll out when you have many tanks and 3-4 control groups of marines so that you can take your 3rd anyway. It's good to exchange armies when the fight is tremendously in your favor - toss needs reaver/HT to keep it even since zealot/goon will melt to mass stim/tank. I'll watch later. Probably your macro. Yeah, I just watched and that was terribad. You didn't build the CC on spot. You didn't use your scans actively. You jumped to 3rax too soon considering you had 3 on gas (the build tells you to take some off until you start your fac). You shouldn't push so early when your opponent is keeping up on units (your opponent stayed on 3gates before taking a 3rd). The 4rax --> fac timing I recommend in the build order is fine. Your macro missed a lot of production cycles. Your micro and rally points sent many units to a vain death. You retreated when you were winning a battle against goons. In whole your tech was slow to come out, and if you hadn't lost fights the entire game and continued macroing you could have steamrolled this guy on the first try - nice EMP and HT snipes fwiw, but too little too late. You also need to control your army much better.
Yea, that was my first time, and I have an issue with remember what to do with new BO's.
I'll give it a few dozen more tries :D
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On September 07 2010 11:29 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 03:02 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Yeah but the thing about scanners is he can make make you waste them by running away or sending them in 1 at a time. scan comes so ridiculously early that you can spend 1 scan for scouting and you'll have 3 scans by the time dt comes. ebay should be done by then so 1 turret at each base should be good enough. (get ebay bit earlier once you see a 1basing toss or scan sees robo or temp tech.)
Yeah this is 100% correct. DTs shouldn't be a problem until you push, and even then you'll have enough scans to force your way to the natural, set up turrets and bunker, and wait for a vessel (which shouldn't be too far behind if you're macroing well). Toss shouldn't waste his time & money on DTs to try and stop the push - they'll be useful in the lategame defending expansions and harassing places.
On September 07 2010 11:15 Thesecretaznman wrote:
Yea, that was my first time, and I have an issue with remember what to do with new BO's.
I'll give it a few dozen more tries :D
No worries. I can't stand to watch my own replays because I know how bad my mechanics are after I push. lol 3k mins.
On September 07 2010 07:48 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Couple questions. Why do you say to build CC at nat? I find hiding the fact I'm even rax expoing best. 2nd, are we walling the main? The few games I did it were vs noobs so I won't bother posting but I walled, and then after rax made 2 marine lifted to the nat and made a semi wall with bunker+rax and then put the CC down.
Trust me when I say that you really really really want a bunker down before goons arrive. A good protoss will harass you with a zealot, and a goon soon after - making it near impossible for marines to take the natural without a medic/stim or a tank's range. A microed goon is just too much for a handful of marines. I don't think the mindgames are worth hurting your econ.
Note: If something weird happens preventing you from expanding (idk, 2gate proxy zealot or whatever else prevents a rax FE), you can float your CC after making some SCVs with it. Meanwhile you've got a 2nd rax up and you're going for stim/medic with a factory. You can take your expansion with just the bio if the toss expands, otherwise a siege expo is safest and you may still be ahead (depending on what weird thing the Protoss did to disrupt you). Feel free to transition to mech.
The deal with the wall is that you will have the minerals to CC earlier and then go fac as followup, or CC a little later and go bio - but because you're not going mech you can just build your 18/18 anytime you want. I start it on 12 so that all but a first-try pylon scout cannot get into my base and cause mischief (you want your marines in front against a zealot, not chasing a stupid probe). More importantly, building a depot on 12 allows you to continuously produce marines and SCVs (you must cut marines if you go mech), so this build gives you fast enough marines to fend off zealot harassment. It's very very bad if you fail to get up your natural and bunkers, because you won't have a tank to save your ass and things can rapidly spiral downward if you make a mistake this early and the Toss is aggressive.
Finally, lifting your rax to your nat serves virtually no good. (1) It stalls your marine production. (2) You don't need to block your natural against anything, bunkers and SCVs are good enough. (3) See (1) again. You really want to have continuous marine production, especially if you need to defend against a drop.
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On September 07 2010 15:28 krndandaman wrote:Just played a game at D+. opponent is korean D+ toss. ![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/37926.jpg) I opted for no upgrade on infantry, because the guy was teching fast rather than adding a shitload of gates. pushed out a bit before when I though templar tech would finish. he stalled well and broke my push with a flank. I really dunno what to do when the toss splits up his forces with like 10 goons threatening a backstab as well as flank, while he's camping his templar at his ramp waiting for storm to rape your army. if you go in for the kill, he can just stall till storm and your vessel doesn't have 100 energy (if you even have a vessel by then) and even if you do, you'll only hit 1 temp if he splits em up. after he broke my push i had to macro back and i lost all map control. i got my 3rd but the guy expanded everywhere with cannons. i'm spending all my gas on vessel/tanks and not dropship because his army is too large and i need to emp the shit outta his army. eventually he just rolls me with just like 3 storm and i gg emp'd as much as i could... edit: this is a really hard build to pull off. very mechanically demanding...
I was actually surprised that you weren't able to pull through in this game (the toss played pretty normally, but far from optimally). Your push did pretty well - I feel like I could have won those battles if I were microing them (you got manhandled by zealots and storm for no reason, and you didn't bravely confront dragoons when you had sufficient numbers), but you were a little short on reinforcements anyway.
Here's why you couldn't a-click that battle (keeping in mind that your opponent's macro was really bad also):
(1) You left 3 on gas and put a very early factory (35/44) before your 2nd barracks was even finished. I prefer to build 4rax before starting my factory (I can leave 1-2 guys on gas for stim and eventually a factory), so I'm just spending minerals on infantry.
(2) You went straight to vessels from there with a second refinery up early. You spent this gas well, but all of the tech decreased your marine count. The tanks were kinda helpful (not that they ever sieged anything...), but mnm are the meat and potatoes of your army.
I think you should have gotten an ebay sooner. Even if you decide against turrets (as your scans indicated was pretty safe), having a +1 upgrade would have helped a lot.
If you were scanning his tech actively (I think you stopped after a while), you would have seen that his templar weren't going to be out in time to stop you from pushing into his natural and bunkering. When you scout a reaver-less response in the future, try to stay low tech - tanks aren't as important as infantry in this situation. Vultures and vessels would be nice - but until reavers come out or you're trying to advance a contain, tanks aren't so important.
Your opponent's macro was bad. I recommend just going through the motions of 4rax->fac until we come up with something better. One big push is better than an early weak push.
And you didn't build any dropships.
tldr: too much gas, not enough marines. Poor micro, decent macro.
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EPT
