EPT[G] TvP U-238 Build - Page 5
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
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ztoa03
Philippines181 Posts
On August 29 2010 10:06 Froadac wrote: Three rax makes me have reverse dejavu to starcraft 2. If I recall it correctly. . . I think that would be "jamais vu"? | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
maybe if he doesnt scout it... somehow | ||
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
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Ocular
Canada141 Posts
On August 31 2010 00:53 foppa wrote: at the 9 minute mark how many dragoons do you have? lol do you gate 4 off 1 base no expo? t.t Its called micro. Also at the 9 minute mark any protoss should have scouted the build long ago and coming up with a way to counter. I'm not saying its not a good build I just don't think it would have a successful win ratio over c- | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
i watched some of your replays, u lost more than you really should have, and most of the wins were against really bad people who had idle gateways for a lengthy period of time i really dont see this working against better players | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 31 2010 18:12 Severedevil wrote: I tend to think after Terran takes his third, he shouldn't add any more raxes, and transition from bio-with-mech-support to mech-with-bio-support. Bio is so hard to control when you have more than around four hotkeys that I think it stops being practical to fill out more than half your army's supply. I'm also not sold on the second engineering bay. I don't think our games are representative of how a progamer might treat this build. I can't even keep up with the macro and we're still having pretty even exchanges (I've just been throwing wave after wave at you until your defenses finally earn you the advantage). I can build a cloud of vessels but will probably miss many opportunities to EMP templar, so I'm not convinced that a large bionic army with tank/vessel support is hard-countered by some wondrous caster. The fact that I have so much money and idle buildings/units just shows that this can be a lot meaner than I'm demonstrating. If it's possible to earn midgame map control then a mech transition should build on top of this momentum. I'm thinking a lategame mentality might look like: (1) Use vultures and mines to further restrict army movement while harassing anti-bio units (zealot,HT). Spider mines force goons+obs or carriers to efficiently clear minefields. Observers take gas from templars and build queue time from reavers. Goons are pretty worthless against a large tank/mnm army. (2) Try to keep Protoss on 3 bases while staying ahead economically. Punish aggression with dropship harass, vulture runby & flanks. Slow push with tanks to where Protoss tries to expand. (3) Infantry in bunkers are good defense against recalls, and mnm can respond to recall more quickly and effectively than tanks. What about carriers? I assume the infantry can just wear down the minerals provided the Protoss is barred from expansion. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 31 2010 22:29 Thesecretaznman wrote: If you're transitioning to mech, you can always use constant vultures to scout out precise army positions then go in for the EMP's. Screw that, just spike em all with the vultures and run away. We can open paper, but we've got a rock for ya scissaz. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On September 01 2010 06:03 krndandaman wrote: would you ever switch to full mech? I think by playing by this, you're trying to play a harass style in the mid/late game but that could be stomped easy by just 3 cannons or so at each base. more if he notices you're going heavy harass. he would just secure more bases and will just keep up his protoss maxed army filled with high temp, goon, zeal, reaver(?), arbiter(?), etc. and if you ever do switch to mech that is when he will roll you over with superior upgrade and econ. and i think it would be still hard to defend recalls... just imagine a recall fly down with like 8 goons, 4 zeal, 2 high temps. as he stasises units that come up and storms on the ramp. imo late game is just suicide with bio... anything over 20 minutes should be gg for bio in almost all cases I really thing this is all speculation and negativity at this point - we need games to tell us what an actual lategame should look like. If I have some time (I have very little these days) I'll try to play around with the more moderate strategy that has developed out of this thread. | ||
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ella_guru
Canada1741 Posts
Really breaking some way on how to work bio into TvP . reverse fanta stylez. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
The build you outlined in the OP is pretty inefficient. There's no reason for you to build that second depot so early. It would just be much more efficient to 1rax fe in the way the professional Terrans players have been doing recently. Making three bunkers so fast also seems to be an overreaction. Bunker count should be adjusted depending on what you need. Usually the most you'll ever need is two, and there's a lot of times where all you'll need is one. For upgrades, I think it's better to get +1 armor before +1 attack. The +1 armor makes your marines much hardier against dts and goons, although dts shouldn't be too big of a problem since you get scans quite early, so that when you attack you should have enough scans. During combat I find that the +1 armor does a lot more for your marines even when reavers and hts are involved. I'm not really satisfied with any tech timings yet. I'm not convinced this build can ever be a "standard" as in a build that can go into the midgame/lategame without doing grievous damage prior to it. I think it's best to just completely focus everything into killing him with a 2base all-in and only expanding and teching after you have managed to kill his natural. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
I'm not convinced a normal rax FE is better than this. If the Protoss sends a zealot then a normal rax FE cuts marines and won't have a bunker up fast enough for 1 marine to defend the CC, so the CC is delayed anyway. My method has continuous marines and SCVs so you can fight the zealot before you have a bunker - as long as the bunker is done when the goon arrives. You can place a depot on 12 because you don't need the early refinery to start collecting gas for a factory. I start the refinery at around the same time as the academy so that you can get an upgrade and 2 comsats immediately, but you won't need your refinery much earlier, so you have the minerals to place an early depot, which allows you continuous marines and SCVs through 18/18. Let me know if you can think of a better arrangement toward the same objective (what's the point in having a slightly faster CC just to have a supply block at 18/18 or be forced to cut marines?). | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Yeah, I don't think you should get a second engineering bay either. I honestly think you should only get up to +1/+1 with armor first, weapons later, and only tech up to factory. I think it is just much better to add factories rather than try to tech to vessels before that and in the unfortunate scenario of you being unable to kill him, taking your third is also a higher priority than getting vessels. The main justifications for getting up to five raxes is due to the fact that we need to attack very quickly early on and also because of the fact that we are planning on doing a bio build will be obvious once he realizes that his dragoons aren't outranging the marines in the bunker, but after this point tanks are absolutely crucial. As the game prolongs, even for a little bit longer, we are unable to win in a fight without tanks. So I think it is best to freeze the rax count at 5 and just add on factories from there on. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On September 01 2010 09:03 krndandaman wrote: the point is, most of the time( like 99%) you will not reach late game... its so hard to reach lategame let alone SURVIVE lategame with bio in tvp. the thing is, scouting that the terran is going bio is not hard at all. that u-238 upgrade alone is instant giveaway. after that, as protoss, you just need to mass up and tech to templars asap and make sure that the game doesnt end before mid to late game. (where toss definitely has advantage in tech) the toss gets templars quicker than the terran gets vessel with EMP, AND the toss can produce templars quicker and in more mass than vessels. a few templars alone has the potential to wipe out like 40 supply of marine/medic in an instant. this build really should not win much at all past C level. You could say that more easily about Deep Six, which is viable at the professional level. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades. also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep? | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On September 01 2010 10:56 krndandaman wrote: in this build, you see the range, and you're like "oh, its bio haha" you have a good old time just macroing off like 6gates and skipping robo tech while getting citadel/temp archives. like 8minutes later the terran FINALLY pushes out and you just crush it ezpz with 6 templars, some speedlots and goons. This is far from an accurate portrayal. In my opinion this is actually a bad reaction since it creates a timing window before the gateways and templar finish, and it only takes bunkers at the natural to counter templar, if not stimpack micro. You will need time to collect gas from your natural and for storm to research and for the templar to get 25 more energy, so you need to survive long enough that bunkers and tanks don't end up at your natural. Remember that the Terran can push as soon as he has enough infantry to beat whatever units you have out - if that's a 1gate nexus opening then you're not going to be in trouble. If you're good at moving your infantry around then it really isn't too hard to avoid storms (I mean you can see them hovering toward you). It's only when you're not looking or have to hold your ground that storms are devastating. I don't think a modern programer would have much difficulty minimizing losses to storm, given how good of multitasking they have to babysit their armies. And there is no reason to push if the Protoss is going to do all of that (cutting probes and delaying a 3rd to afford it all in time). So the Terran can just advance and take their 3rd and continue to macro - tech switching afterwards if they like. A more sensible reaction would be to get a shuttle (or two) with reavers and try to demand that tanks accompany infantry wherever they go while expanding to a 3rd - you can at least prevent an all-bio 3rd expansion or push by getting a reaver. If a push does come for you then cannon up your natural and 3rd and add gateways, but rely on reavers to wear down the infantry size until more units are ready to fight the push. | ||
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