EPTpeople should at least give the build a good shot before they derail it.... i mean, you're overlooking possibly great benefits of this build by theorycrafting the weak points of the build and then dismissing it
[G] TvP U-238 Build - Page 2
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OMin
United States545 Posts
people should at least give the build a good shot before they derail it.... i mean, you're overlooking possibly great benefits of this build by theorycrafting the weak points of the build and then dismissing it | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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OMin
United States545 Posts
On August 30 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote: Will try it out I think I have tried some random 3 rax on a toss who 2 gate which i didn't scout and I died badly .... Does this build order work against 2 gate or 3 gate toss ? Most of the opponent build order did 1 gate and some fast nexus . I don't think it really works on toss who plays aggressively in the beginning game. well, the normal 1 rax FE build can hold against 2 gates, so it can most definitely hold 2 gates with range upped. And since this build gets more than 1 bunker, id say its safe vs 3 gates as well. | ||
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=37825 | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 30 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote: Will try it out I think I have tried some random 3 rax on a toss who 2 gate which i didn't scout and I died badly .... Does this build order work against 2 gate or 3 gate toss ? Most of the opponent build order did 1 gate and some fast nexus . I don't think it really works on toss who plays aggressively in the beginning game. You don't want to do that. The low infantry count can only beat 1gate safe economic play, otherwise it's better to build up a large army and push when Protoss takes his 3rd or wait for upgrade(s). On August 29 2010 13:51 nath wrote: how do you not lose to even half-decently controled reavers I played a C+ today and he raped me over and over again with a fast reaver, good micro, and 3 gateways for goon pressure at the natural (significantly delaying his own natural). The infantry can typically fend off the harassment, but I had to lift my natural - so you need to get a tank to help reclaim the natural. I'm uncertain from this sort of aggression and contain how best to follow up, but this is the most difficult thing to deal with at the moment. I'll post a rep later. I also played numerous games against Severedevil (C rank?) and he went for a reaver after a FE, adding cannons to his natural to help deflect a push. In general I opted for 4rax and fac with 2x ebay upgrades followed by science facility. This push is big enough to get out of the door without much trouble but you need to wait for tanks to arrive to set up a contain (my macro typically slipped around here) - you can expand to your 3rd immediately. On Fighting Spirit it's pretty tough and slow to siege up the 3rd's ramp if there are cannons and reaver above - so it's probably best to amass units and solidify your contain. Fighting Spirit also has unbuildable terrain in a lot of places, so placing bunkers can be a pain. I imagine the safety of the 3rd and containability of the nat will vary from map to map. I'll post some reps later. sry foppa let's play another time. On August 30 2010 02:41 OMin wrote: well, the normal 1 rax FE build can hold against 2 gates, so it can most definitely hold 2 gates with range upped. And since this build gets more than 1 bunker, id say its safe vs 3 gates as well. I'm paranoid and accustomed to ICCup players going all-in on a whim. 2rax may be good enough if the choke doesn't allow goons an angle to hit stuff, but you need to be vigilant on your repairs. It's the usual rax FE headache. I have a replay in my reppack of a 3gate all-in failing. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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zcxvbn
United States257 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 30 2010 05:41 neobowman wrote: I tried using U-238 for defense in a 1 rax FE only, transitioning into mech soon after. I think this thing will be interesting to try. About a year ago I saw a rep of a good player (B- I think) do a 2rax FE on Destination, decided he didn't want to pressure with the bio so he just sat behind one bunker (the bridges make it easy), and transitioned straight to mech. I haven't thought this through fully, but I don't think it's worthwhile to delay the mech unless you utilize the academy to pressure the toss in some way. Once he scouts you're going mech he can regain the economic edge. An mnm drop can do pretty good damage though. I've tried what you're suggesting in the past and my general feeling is that it's both excessive and risky. It's excessive because even though you're not repairing bunkers forever while waiting for a tank, you're spending 300/150 before you start your factory. I don't know if the difference in repair time is worth that much. It's risky because you won't have enough bio (no medics, no stim) or fast enough tanks to deal with harassment. At the moment I'm having difficulty dealing with fast reaver contains, so I'm getting an early factory to help, but I'm still relying primarily on mnm for defense. On August 30 2010 06:27 zcxvbn wrote: I'd love to try my hand against this build - /f add me on iccup (just4funz) and msg me when i'm online Umm, I have a lot of requests already, but I'll add you (add u.238). I usually play late night or early morning EST. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
he made alot more zealots than goons for some reason. Speedlot/HT/Reaver is generally a smart composition against M&M. There's not much incentive to pump dragoons as the game goes on. (Still want a few to hit air, but no vultures --> don't really need dragoons.) | ||
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Muirhead
United States556 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
(1) You mixed up the build a little, but I think it's fine for the most part. You may want to get a bunker sooner (zealot pressure can be a bitch and you don't have sim city), and you get your academy a little earlier than necessary. My build should give you enough gas to make both comsats and range as soon as it's finished. (2) Your scans showed no expansion, goons blocking ramp, only 2 pylons... It's pretty obvious you're missing some part of the picture but you don't place a turret at your entrance. You also should build a second bunker when you see 2gate no expansion. (3) I don't like the factory this early unless I know reavers are involved. You're probably better getting some extra infantry, defending any drops and staying safe behind bunkers until you know exactly what you're facing. (4) You left 4 marines in the bunker so you couldn't kill the DTs on the first try. You also don't appear to have very many SCVs. (5) Your opponent double expanded with only 3 dragoons... if you had more SCVs and were pumping more mnm you could push directly after stopping the harssment. (6) At 8:00 you're supply stuck and building tanks for no reason at all. I think what happens from here on out is very improvised. Your push is predominantly tanks, you should have far more infantry if you were macroing, and your push should have attacked earlier. It's probably what higher level Terrans say when they see my replays, but I think you just outmacroed a bad opponent here. Nevertheless: bio is strong, isn't it? | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 30 2010 08:46 Muirhead wrote: I would think a transition to pure mech after pushing and taking your 3rd would be advised though? I already build tanks from 2facs (I could build more if I neglected starport units) so we're really just talking about vultures. I'm not convinced that vultures are superior to mnm. Mnm do far better dps to all units and perform better in drops, but they don't have spider mines. I also worry how many barracks I might need to take offline while adding factories. It shouldn't be during a big push - maybe once I've established a contain? I don't think quitting bio cold turkey is a good idea, and vehicle upgrades are going to be very late. There is also the option of using vultures alongside mnm to spider mine potential flanks and to help solidify the contain. Because the toss will be relying on zealots and templar vultures could be very handy for sniping units when no reavers or goons are nearby. My general feeling is that mixing some in for the spider mines could be really helpful (similar to TvZ lategame), but a total transition won't be good until I have some upgrades and a lot of tanks. There are also circumstances where it's better to stick on bio. If the toss goes for arbiters or carriers, upgraded infantry are pretty awesome. So the bio forces the toss to stick to zealots (anti-tank, low gas) and support units (anti-bio, high gas for DTs, low production rate and poor mobility for reavers). Bio tank vulture sounds pretty solid. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On August 30 2010 10:32 krndandaman wrote: imo, the toss should 1gate triple expand with no tech cept goon range. then tech quickly to high templar while massing units. terran will be in no position to push out early to hit the timing because of late stim, low marine count, no tanks. Terran can push at any time after they research Stim, and they have two early scanners to tell them whether or not Protoss can defend it. If Protoss has no army for that long, Protoss will die. Cool to see more Terrans trying the build though! | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 30 2010 11:13 krndandaman wrote: by the time the terran has stim he has around like 8 rines 2med. im pretty sure even 5 goons can outmicro that easy. which you should have at they very least that amount since you're not really cutting probes/goon because you're off 1gate. after the triple you should 2 or 3 more gates while going citadel. 8marines 2meds with both stim and range will beat five dragoons easily. Microing with 5 dragoons isn't going to do shit if the marines have range and stim. | ||
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