EPTI think the reason you never see these on higher level games is basically because of some minor things will seem to give away your build. Especially if you're making more than 1 bunker.
[G] TvP U-238 Build - Page 3
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
I think the reason you never see these on higher level games is basically because of some minor things will seem to give away your build. Especially if you're making more than 1 bunker. | ||
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
Edit: WTF was I thinking, typing irradiating. =.= I meant EMPing | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
The micro you employ depends on who has the larger army. You need to focus goons and retreat for medic healing if you have inferior numbers... but you shouldn't be attacking if you don't have enough infantry. If you have roughly equal numbers (I don't know the marine/goon conversion rate, but it's roughly 2 or 3 to 1), it is sometimes better to not stim in a standup fight so that your medics can heal the damage before your marine instantly dies (this is very important in small fights and when you are doing drops and have only a couple of units). Once you have superior numbers (you have a good timing), you can stim and attack move and the goons must flee, but I like to take an extra control group and run a flank so as to prevent hold position micro - if he doesn't move he will lose many goons. On August 30 2010 12:04 renzy wrote: I agree with dRaW. Almost no decent protoss will not tech to reavers/templars if they realize that you're making more than 1 bunker, and the bunkers can actually hit their ranged dragoons. It makes me wonder if the protoss will just take his reaver and start breaking your bunkers while massing units. I mean the only reason that Protoss vs Mech Terran wants to be +1 base ahead of the terran is because terran units are so resilient, whereas the protoss needs to constantly (well not constantly, but you get the point) replace his. However, I don't think the protoss needs to worry about out expanding the terran when they realize that T is going for bio. Therefore, that leaves them with extra minerals to tech and macro earlier on, stopping the timing. When the timing is stopped and the protoss do get templars...the Terran needs some hardcore MnM spread/dodging to not get their army raped by high templars. As for SV EMPing. Most decent protoss carry templars in their shuttles, hence SV wont sap their energy. Edit: WTF was I thinking, typing irradiating. =.= I meant EMPing If the Protoss waits until he sees marine range or a second bunker to tech reaver then that's fine. I played games against Muirhead and Severedevil that had a similar reaver timing that followed a 1gate FE and it's nowhere near as frightening as a 1gate fast reaver which has the potential to harass and break bunkers, but this is a blind build choice. The comsats are up very early so there is ample time to prepare defenses. As for EMP and templar, unless you're using more than one shuttle, the bulk of your templar will be on the ground. I know that it's difficult to push against goons with shuttle reaver micro. You really need tanks to 1hit-kill the reavers when your infantry retreat since a good toss can almost always outrun stimmed infantry if he has goons to support. It's generally a costly idea to stim and try to spike the shuttle when dragoons are present, but there are ways to get around this. I could show you reps killing the shuttle and being killed by the shuttle - it's really a matter of army size and control - being able to flank is important. | ||
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Ocular
Canada141 Posts
Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On August 31 2010 00:33 Ocular wrote: The way you talk about this strat and all the effort you put into it makes it sound viable. I just don't know how effective it would be late game. I'm not sure if I read correctly when you said push 90 psi (9:00). Did you mean 9 minutes into the game? If so there is no way two control groups of marines should be able to do anything to a protoss that late in the game. You seem to have it all figured out in the strat but have you actually played and come across all those situations? Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read. at the 9 minute mark how many dragoons do you have? lol do you gate 4 off 1 base no expo? t.t | ||
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ven
Germany332 Posts
It's interesting nonetheless but I think the (perceived) strength of it mostly stems from opponents not being used to this kind of bio aggression and I'm not sure whether it would fare very well against players more experienced with bio PvT. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 31 2010 00:33 Ocular wrote: The way you talk about this strat and all the effort you put into it makes it sound viable. I just don't know how effective it would be late game. I'm not sure if I read correctly when you said push 90 psi (9:00). Did you mean 9 minutes into the game? If so there is no way two control groups of marines should be able to do anything to a protoss that late in the game. You seem to have it all figured out in the strat but have you actually played and come across all those situations? Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read. No, around 9:00 you have 3-4 control groups of marines (and 1 of medics) from around 5raxes, 1-1 upgrades, a factory building tanks, and starport/sci under construction. Using this timing always gets me an easy 3rd and time to establish a contain. From there it really depends on macro and the outcome of battles/harassment. It's up for discussion whether it's better to hold territory with tanks, use dropships for harassment, or transition to a vulture tank army. I was saying that if you want to push earlier it's usually good to wait for 2 control groups so that you can perform flanks. I don't really like pushing with just one group because goon micro can stop a weak push. On August 31 2010 01:27 ven wrote: I watched some of the replays and it looked like a well controlled range dragoon rush as well as any kind of fast reaver completely demolishes your defenses before you get a fighting force up. Even if they "blindly" do fast reavers as you put it, it's not that unusual and I really don't like having a weakness like that in my build. Also placing the bunkers directly side by side really hurts your ability to repair them and if you can't hold on to the bunkers, range alone won't do you any good. I totally agree with you about the fast reaver, but not say, a 10/15 rush (you will have 2-3 bunkers up in time and U-238 finished very early, so it's practically an economic build order win if you just repair the bunkers). I played a C+ and although I had turrets and my mnm could defend the main from the cliff, there wasn't much I could do to save my natural from scarabs. I played repeatedly and adjusted until I was eventually getting a factory (alongside 2raxes) upon scouting a reaver so that I could siege expand back to my natural (with a good number of mnm also). Because the Protoss expands much later doing this opening, it isn't clear who comes out ahead. I'm still looking for a better solution than floating my CC and waiting for siege, and this is the most difficult thing I'm dealing with at the moment. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On August 31 2010 01:27 ven wrote: I watched some of the replays and it looked like a well controlled range dragoon rush as well as any kind of fast reaver completely demolishes your defenses before you get a fighting force up. Even if they "blindly" do fast reavers as you put it, it's not that unusual and I really don't like having a weakness like that in my build. Also placing the bunkers directly side by side really hurts your ability to repair them and if you can't hold on to the bunkers, range alone won't do you any good. Blind fast reavers, particularly with a proxy robo and 1 --> 2/3 gateways of dragoon/zealot support, is a serious threat to kill any Terran fast expand. I'm not actually convinced it's more dangerous to an infantry opening than a mech opening. Mech can't hit the shuttle, and has lower move speeds and DPS than marines with stim. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 31 2010 06:27 krndandaman wrote: rather than the actual harass, i found the 1gate reaver -> nexus much scarier. the reaver comes very fast so you basically get 1) acad stim/range 2) ebay up/turret 3) factory tank/siege which negates any economic advantage you would've had from the 1rax CC because you're getting all that very very early. a goon reaver attack is a huge threat as the reaver will just 4hit your bunk, and even faster if you do a simultaneous goon attack with a scarab. your bunk will almost instantly die. especially if the toss micros well, you're pretty much done. Yeah, you have to lift the CC and retreat your units to the main. Any ideas? | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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guMmiwormz
United States312 Posts
seems like it would give you a lot better defense early game against tech, you deny scouting + your build early on with turret ring. and a stronger push with biomech. and in my opinion a lot safer transition since your off two fact/ Watch Leta VS Pure (leta loses but he did make a ton of mistakes) Classic vs Best (really good representation of what im talking about instead of getting the range early on) | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 31 2010 07:17 guMmiwormz wrote: I went through the thread and none of you have considered 1 rax fe--> tanks --> bio seems like it would give you a lot better defense early game against tech, you deny scouting + your build early on with turret ring. and a stronger push with biomech. and in my opinion a lot safer transition since your off two fact/ Watch Leta VS Pure (leta loses but he did make a ton of mistakes) Classic vs Best (really good representation of what im talking about instead of getting the range early on) For reference: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Thanks for mentioning this. BeSt eventually had a similar composition (5rax 2fac 1port) to what I've got, but you're right that it is safer early on. The big difference is switching the push army composition from predominantly tanks to infantry, but after the push things normalize to the same composition. There are also different timings to consider. This strategy feels all or nothing because the tanks lack mobility and couldn't be split up to say, defend an expansion or harass Protoss expansions. It needs to contain and kill on the first try. With a predominantly bio army, you can take a 3rd and harass with dropships or push with tanks and bunkers. With a predominantly tank army you will only have enough infantry to support one group of tanks, and ... [still watching Leta's game] | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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guMmiwormz
United States312 Posts
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bw-terran-stream | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 31 2010 08:19 krndandaman wrote: sounds alot like deep6 to me basically. 1rax fe -> tank -> bio No, Deep 6 devotes everything to bio and pushes with a few tanks. The 2fac build gets significantly more tanks and pushes with a much smaller bio force - but reinforces from 5rax. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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guMmiwormz
United States312 Posts
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