EPT[G] TvP U-238 Build - Page 8
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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DorF
Sweden961 Posts
Seems fun and I have plenty of APM to pull any build off so I can't wait to see if this works (I love Bio btw :p) | ||
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ssj_ds
Australia12 Posts
I thouroughly enjoyed seeing forgg utilise vultures to to thin the HT numbers before various engagements and target fire reavers with tanks to improve the lifespan of his bio ball and particularly because + Show Spoiler + fOrGG wins I would love to see someone make this work in a televised game + Show Spoiler + Flash Please | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 26 2010 17:37 ssj_ds wrote: As I haven't seen it mentioned yet, if you want to see a replay of a pro gamer going U-238 expand against protoss and continuing with bio throughout the game (although in the end it was mostly mech), check out the fOrGG vs Stats 2.rep that can be found in Ver's how to improve guide that i have linked here (click other sources and select the last hyperlink in the guide to download the reppack). I thouroughly enjoyed seeing forgg utilise vultures to to thin the HT numbers before various engagements and target fire reavers with tanks to improve the lifespan of his bio ball and particularly because + Show Spoiler + fOrGG wins I would love to see someone make this work in a televised game + Show Spoiler + Flash Please Well I was actually thinking of Wraith control group to snipe HTs when they pops out so + Show Spoiler + Leta  | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Warning: The last post in this thread is over two months old. It's my goddamn thread, I'll bump if I wanna.If you bump this, you better have a good reason. So unfortunately I'm kind of into this game they call Wings of Liberty (I play Zerg now), but I just had a good idea having revisited Broodwar briefly. Also, reading the other noobie strat TvP threads gives me incentive to help my Terran brothers. More theorycrafting inbound: So you get your barracks fast expand, you add a second barracks and get stim. This should cause any sane Protoss to shit his pants, since he's primarily worried about an imminent push. But that's not your plan... Get a factory also when you make your 2nd rax and start tank tech. This is what you would want to regardless if you didn't want to roll out with just mnm (reavers force you to go tank or air superiority). But forget the ebay: no infantry upgrades, no turrets (you have stim and scans just in case). Get armories and a starport! Once you have a sizable infantry force with siege tank support, you feint an attack, but stop and fall back to defending your 3rd. As has already been demonstrated, this infantry build is quite powerful very early in TvP but falters against higher tech later on (and multitasking faults can cost you heavily). So you use a modest force (as small as necessary) to simply take your 3rd and bunker up while getting dual mech upgrades and dropping lots of factories as your 3rd comes online. Note that where you would have spent money on 4-5 rax and 2 advanced tech structures plus infantry upgrades, instead you are putting your gas into mech upgrades, maybe one wraith and/or vessel for intel reasons, and the rest is factories. The minerals from the rax/infantry go into a fast CC and factories. Because you intend on playing defensively, you don't need an army big enough to kill your opponent. This is possibly the fastest and safest way I can imagine getting to your 3rd base without threatening vulture harassment (as standard TvP relies so heavily on). Traditional double armory builds wait for a 2-1 timing, but falter taking the 3rd without adding sufficient factories and delaying (spider mines help if you need to stop a bust) to match Protoss aggression. On maps that don't outright give you a free 3rd, throwing bio in early seems to give you just what you need to make it to that 3rd without as serious concern for unit massing by the Protoss - the Protoss needs tech units to effectively combat heavy mnm with light tank support. And going bio simultaneously puts the Protoss on edge, unaware of your intention (if you deny early scouting of your armories). And it makes sense. Stimpack totally shuts down Protoss's early-midgame unit composition. Let them fast tech to reavers or high templar... that's a distraction from their economy (probes, expansion, and better uses of their gas), and arrives too late to halt bunkers at your 3rd. Reavers and templar are only dangerous if you leave your 3-base bunker/tank fortress, but you won't be leaving until you have a 2-2 mech army. I think this could be a very very very potent strategy (who doesn't like camping 3base mech?) if adopted by an active BW player (sorry, I'm out of this game now), and especially could help give an edge to novice players that want to play a safe defensive macro style without Flash-like game sense (you have lots of scans the whole game). glhf | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On December 23 2010 03:45 Severedevil wrote: Is the idea of the two-rax-only play to make sure you get your third before Protoss gets his? Since if he actually takes a third he won't have the tech/unit count to deal with Stim M&M? I was usually going 4rax into factory and pushing out with insane amounts of force, but usually by the time you get across the map the toss has gotten a plan of action together and you're not going to win the game with bio alone unless you catch the Protoss off guard doing something greedy. So the idea is to make fewer infantry and place the money into tech and a CC instead, and faster tanks. I think there is a normal timing window at which the Protoss can get his 3rd without dying to a bio push. Regardless of how much danger the Protoss is or is not in, I think this might be an all-around smoother and safer way for the Terran to get to his third while getting double armory upgrades. Goon/zealot is a much larger threat to a pure tank army trying to secure a 3rd, so Terran either relies on spider mines and clever timing to get the CC with brute force, or (against an alert Protoss) you need to offer a real threat to keep your 3rd from being harassed: speed vultures. From games played (with you and others), Protoss can take his 3rd at a normal time and still survive a bio push, but most of the time it involves a heavy tech investment or cutting probes to add gateways -- the harder the transition the more greedily Protoss expanded. I'm not certain which of the numerous responses I've encountered is most effective, but a lot of them are overreactionary -- very gas intensive and not so great against mech. So I don't think Terran is any better poised to kill a safe-expanding Protoss, but if the Terran can cut off intel then the Protoss knows his actions are being watched by scans, so I think there is no option for Protoss but to play safely or abusively (possibly taking a fast 4th to elicit a premature response from the Terran or hoping to stall the push until the 4th has kicked in). My hope is that the investment in academy tech early on instead of total factory production is made up for by the improved economy and efficiency, faster upgrades, early and persistent intelligence (fast scanners), and strategic versatility of a bionic army (attack, raid, bunker). | ||
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BruceLee6783
United States196 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/4323_BoxeR_vs_Reach/vod He basically keeps his temps in shuttles hovering over his goons. When Terran advances, he sends his army to absorb enemy fire while simultaneously dropping temps from a moving shuttle. As the temps drop 1 by 1, he immediately storms anything bunched together. Pretty gosu stuff in that game. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On December 23 2010 05:10 BruceLee6783 wrote: Reach demonstrates in this game how to own Terran's who try to vulture snipe your HT's. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/4323_BoxeR_vs_Reach/vod He basically keeps his temps in shuttles hovering over his goons. When Terran advances, he sends his army to absorb enemy fire while simultaneously dropping temps from a moving shuttle. As the temps drop 1 by 1, he immediately storms anything bunched together. Pretty gosu stuff in that game. Ummm... everybody knows that trick so is there a particular reason why you are mentioning it? | ||
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BruceLee6783
United States196 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:04 Mortality wrote: Ummm... everybody knows that trick so is there a particular reason why you are mentioning it? Yes, the OP's ideas towards using m/m builds are founded upon sniping temps to make his/her army much less vulnerable to storms. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Ground mech units are just better against mid-tech toss units. Tanks outrange everything, vultures are cheap and mobile enough to sacrifice for good kills, and goliaths have the best anti-air range. And they're all beefy enough to take a hit or two before dying. BruceLee, actually the build is designed to be able to attack against greedy or abusive Protoss strategies by conventional TvP standards, with a timing window early enough to make teching to HT an afterthought. HT are expensive and not what you want to be building early in the game. A better solution is to get reavers and add gateways. If you don't add gateways then you will get overwhelmed - since the Terran reinforces bio faster. If that window does not present itself, then it is not wise to attack at all. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:17 BruceLee6783 wrote: Yes, the OP's ideas towards using m/m builds are founded upon sniping temps to make his/her army much less vulnerable to storms. mmp's comment pretty much sums it up, but I'll just add that having experimented a little over the years with bionic vs Protoss, I must say that at a certain point you have to drop it unless you have either successfully pressed him to prevent him from being able to reach a critical mass, or are vastly better than your opponent and toying with him. It's hard enough in the midgame when he has 1-2 stormers and/or a reaver, but in the late game you are putting yourself into a position where you have to do a better job than him controlling more units. My impression from this thread is that the OP was stressing the importance of the timing attack which is vital for successful bionic TvP anyway. The timing from this attack is different than the timing of "Deep Six," although I've never really used either. My own experiments with bionic were from before these builds were invented so... | ||
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TheUberMango
United States77 Posts
On December 22 2010 20:07 mmp wrote: It's my goddamn thread, I'll bump if I wanna. glhf LMAO! Anyways this build did work for me a few times against my clan members, but only once in iCCup. I always sucked at TvZ Micro, so I guess that's one of the reasons why. =( | ||
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No0n
United States355 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On December 24 2010 06:56 No0n wrote: I think this is viable, heres what Day[9] has to say about it and how to deal with reavers : http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3535035/ I remember watching that Daily live. Sean's comments are 100% spot on, particularly noting that Reavers are better than HT against bio early game. Hmm.. I think I may be tempted to give this another try over the holiday break. No classes until January.  Edit: Uggh iccup is so brutal. I got one decent try with the 2x armory build although my macro was abysmal. At the very least the marmed tank combo appears to be extremely hard to beat on defense - maybe I should have expanded sooner. I definitely didn't keep up on factories, production or depots. He also got an observer in early and saw everything so I doubt there is any good way to hide the build. Please critique. ![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/39725.jpg) | ||
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My.prO69
Korea (South)9 Posts
On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote: A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily... the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range. And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/13392_Bisu_vs_go.go/vod So bisu isn't a decent protoss... | ||
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pwnsftw
United States42 Posts
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Selth
United States469 Posts
This seems like a somewhat relevant game though Ssak isn't opting for the timing window with this play but rather using the upgraded range + one medic -> bunker once more goons started to pressure to help secure a fast expand but transitions into standard mech play. The bunker helped to push off early goon aggression well, which looks pretty vital considering no mech units are out at this point. The marines also help make a bit of difference when pushing too as Ssak is able to snipe off a shuttle. This probably doesn't correlate too well into your build but I thought it was a rather interesting build that relied on U-238 as well. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Things to note though: Violet used his high templars very poorly and skipped reavers completely. Hiya is certainly not a vastly superior player though so it shows maybe you can keep up mid-late game with good control. If he had vultures zipping through and sniping the HTs it would have worked even better considering Violets lack of ground force except DTs. Also no Cannons i assme because he wanted all minerals for interceptors. Anyway certainly an interesting idea, particularly on this map... See Jaehoon vs Fantasy on Bloody Ridge to see that even a relatively poor carrier switch and usage defeated (most would say) a superior player who went Goliaths. | ||
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