This is an unexplored timing window for bionic TvP. Previous discussions have been limited to 1base surprise bionic attacks and the factory FE-based "Deep Six" all-in. The purpose of this thread is the regeneration of an old debate in the context of the recently popularized rax FE opening, allowing for an earlier bionic push than Deep 6 alongside transition opportunities. I am not a pro. The games are played at the low ranks of ICCup Season 13. That said, I reversed my TvP winrate from around 33% with traditional 3base mech + vulture-harass to over 66% with this new bio timing push and map control. My losses show area for improvement, places to seal the cracks or improve upon the offered strategy. Never did a loss give me the overwhelming impression that I was playing a doomed or cheesy strategy, only frustration of my own slip-ups in micro or macro or decision-making against a strong opponent - I think this build has a lot of potential. It is my hope that higher level Terran players with stronger mechanics and commitment than mine will further explore this strategy and offer informed feedback in this thread. Most of all, I want to show that with this opening we can think about bio TvP as a safe and standard style that is potent even when scouted.
This is a dynamic OP, I make recommendations based on what I've seen. Once I see more, my recommendations may change. The build order is also under adaptation based on what appears to be the safest or strongest options as more information becomes available.
Please contribute your time if you're C rank or higher and try exploring a particular option. For example. play 5 games where you add 4facs after the first 2rax and push when the toss takes his 3rd, reinforcing with vultures. Or find out for yourself if EMP is sufficient in dealing with HT.
Build order: 9 supply 11 rax 12 supply (wall off) 18 CC (on spot) 20 refinery / bunker @100% refinery -> 3 on gas until 250 collected, then leave 1 22 academy @100% academy -> U-238, 2x comsats, stimpack when convenient 22 depot 30 ebay, 2nd rax, 2 SCVs on gas ~35 @100% comsats --> adjust ... add to 4 barracks and start factory when gas is available. @1% factory --> 3 SCVs on gas @1% starport --> 2nd refinery
From here things are up for experimenting. You can add a 5th barracks, an extra factory for tanks, 1 or 2 starports building dropships and/or vessels. After you've taken your 3rd you will have a strong income to further diverge if you wish.
You could alternatively add factories after the 2rax and have a more mech-heavy push with bio support - reinforced by mech.
Clarifications: The build is fundamentally identical to a rax FE for mech, except you do not build your refinery until your expansion is secured and you rely on marine range (U-238) to match dragoon range inside a bunker, obviating the need for siege tanks and factory tech. You will resume factory units later, but the early stimpack and investment in barracks allows you to push at more flexible timings. Intel:+ Show Spoiler +
I like to build a depot on 12 to hide the lack of refinery and discourage zealot harassment. It also allows continuous marine & SCV production, unlike a traditional rax FE that
Because you will have early comsats and an ebay, the build is very safe against goon all-in, DTs, elevator, and bulldog (but not reaver bulldog). The early comsats allow you to know very early exactly what the Protoss is doing and adjust accordingly. You can start stimpack and medics as soon as you think a fight is imminent. A fast reaver is the only known counter to this build.
If you scout a goon all-in then you will want a 3rd bunker to cover your bets (marines can jump into a fresh bunker if one falls). Some players are confident with a single bunker, I think this is fine against 1gate - but I do recommend a 2nd bunker if you scout 2gate or suspect aggression. For standard play, 1 bunker should be fine.
This build is actually safer than a standard rax FE, since it builds marines uninterrupted (depot on 12) and you bunker on 20.
Specific Timings & Adjustments: The key thing to note is that this isn't a Deep 6 one-timing push: the rax FE and lack of factory mean you will be ready to strike much sooner with bio when the opportunity first presents itself (and tanks can follow), but you will roll out with fewer tanks than either a Deep 6 or rax FE --> 2fac --> bio. Because you have early comsats you can wait for the Protoss to misstep and push when it is most advantageous to you. The following are some notable adjustments that I'm aware of: 1gate obs FE:+ Show Spoiler +
I'm of the opinion that you can push early if you spot safe economic play from the Protoss. Your attack should arrive before a reaver can save the natural and there will not be enough goons to defeat the mnm unless the Protoss scouts the push and adds gateways early.
The Protoss needs to have at least 2gates pumping goons or cannons + reaver to keep up with your production for the first 3 barracks. An early push can defeat this kind of greedy play, and you will spot it easily with comsats and you can push as early as you have stimpack and medics.
If you're fortunate enough to scan the tech you can have turrets up early. Also keep in mind that you have two early scans. You will have enough mnm and stimpack to deal with DTs suffering minimal damage. I generally recommend adding a 2nd bunker if you don't spot a nexus at the Protoss natural, so if you see a ripple entering your base a quick scan will kill or severely damage them. Queue some medics and make sure stimpack is started, place turrets, unload most of your marines and stim and scan.
At the moment a 1gate reaver --> nexus is understood to be a smart counter to this opening, although the Protoss cannot know if you will have mech or bio until marine range finishes or an early scan sweep is seen (you could delay U-238 just to play mind games). The main is actually quite safe, because stimpack and turrets are sufficient to fight the reaver (don't cluster your marines!). A reaver doesn't fight up a ramp effectively, but it can outrange your bunkers and destroy them quickly. I'm looking for a solution that doesn't involve an early factory.
You will have scans early enough to spot this tech and upgraded infantry are strong against interceptors. The push should be able to exploit the lack of units, and you can have early siege mode to break through cannons. Deny expansions and bunker/turret your way into the natural.
Contrast from Deep Six The motivation behind a deep six push is not just an all-in, but fundamentally your army composition (in time/money spent) is tanks with light infantry support at an early attack timing. This build differs from Deep Six in that it starts with infantry before transitioning to tanks -- so you will have more time/money spent into infantry making your army more mobile and improved DPS, at the cost of vulnerability to area-of-effect attacks and difficulty busting down static defenses. This build also differs from Deep Six in that the attack timings are more flexible than a Deep Six -- you can play far more reactively, and you have the early scanners to make an informed decision.
Future Work Based on feedback from C/C+ players, if the build is scouted (you scan reaver/templar very early) or the protoss incidentally opts for 2-base aggression instead of a fast 3rd, then you can still easily push to your 3rd and bunker up. Infantry are very good defensive units since medics excel in small fights, and bunkers at your 3rd (above a ramp ideally) and choke can halt a lot of aggression. A transition to mech is advisable, since you will have the upper hand in economy and on intelligence. This transition should start as early as possible, and once you're certain you don't want to push. Vulture mnm ought to be particularly strong, since vultures punish a protoss that relies too heavily on templar and zealots. Someone in the thread suggested wraiths... they are also good against everything not dragoon (which mnm destroy), but they might be a little expensive and delicate when vultures can get the job done well also. It may also be possible to play this opening into a defensive midgame.
Here's my replay pack played up to C- level (forgive my sloppy macro TT). I've been playing some off-rank games with C and higher players and will post replays when I have some consistent results to show, however my mechanics aren't so great so it would be great if some high level Terrans played around with it.
Enjoy and let me know how it works (or doesn't) for you!
I think bio TvP is horrible but you put a lot of thought and work into this, so definately gonna try it out in all my C level (probably worse now cause I havent played for weeks) glory
If a protoss goes 1 gate obs and they see the academy with range researching, they should expect marine medic, in which they shouldn't be continuously building dragoons, but since they have the robo, they can build a reaver and start pumping some zealots. Their reaver doesn't have to do damage at all, all it has to do is delay and defend against your push as protoss takes a 3rd and starts to add more gateways and tech to templar. When you do a bio build like this, protoss does not have to be the aggressor, they can sit back and force you to do the damage while they tech and expand, because in the lategame terran's army will be horribly weak to protoss's templar
I've heard about the U-238 build from various people for years now, but I've never seen an actual game of the build. I've been very curious about it for a while now, even if I've always been extremely skeptical about it. I would love it if you put up some replays for us to see. I really want to see a bunch of games of the build being used.
edit: oh shit, I missed your replay pack link nvm my badddd
Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver? He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank.
On August 29 2010 09:59 SubtleArt wrote: I think bio TvP is horrible but you put a lot of thought and work into this, so definately gonna try it out in all my C level (probably worse now cause I havent played for weeks) glory
Please do. You'll probably lose a few games just getting your bearings, but let me know how the midgame works out with good macro. And if your push fails, remember that you have an easy 3rd and siege tanks + infantry can hold territory well.
On August 29 2010 11:20 Muirhead wrote: Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver? He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank.
That may be a good strategy since it gets an expo up early without exposing itself to much risk. That said, the reaver will be too late to do meaningful harassment. I'm not sure whether or not a 3rax push can arrive quickly enough to start bunkering & turreting, or it may be better to push off of 4rax and 1fac. Or a 2rax fast attack might work also, who knows - 1gate is pretty weak against bio. You can cut probes and add gateways to try to catch up, but I think 4rax of infantry will have you outnumbered unless you commit to a 2nd gateway sooner (you'll ultimately need more than 2gates worth of units coming from a 1gate opening, so I'd hesitate to take a fast 3rd). You could probably do without the reaver so early (obs first?) if you get that 2nd gate early, but it does at least force the Terran to think about bringing tanks earlier than he'd like (bunkers may be just as good though if you don't have a large goon army). I don't want to speculate too much, we should just play and find out.
Oh, and as clarification, when I say 3rax I mean you attack approximately when your 3rax are finished and you have medics + stimpack. You add more barracks after that since you'll have lots of minerals from the FE and you've been pumping SCVs the entire time so it's really more of a 4-5rax + fac push once everything is set up, but you can start the attack with just 3rax.
On August 29 2010 10:36 dhe95 wrote: When you do a bio build like this, protoss does not have to be the aggressor, they can sit back and force you to do the damage while they tech and expand, because in the lategame terran's army will be horribly weak to protoss's templar
The timing is significantly earlier than a Deep 6, but no less potent. Protoss will not have a 3rd up (unpunished), so you need to carefully spell out your strategy beyond just "sit back and tech/expand." As I mentioned in the OP, rushing to HT too early is a strain on an already (relatively) weak economy, so you may get off 1 or two storms and have zero units left to defend if you're overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Reavers are more versatile because they do not have a 75 energy cooldown and you can get off a lot of shots with good shuttle control. I think it is sufficient to set up a contain and outexpand the Protoss if their defense are truly impenetrable - this would be a tremendous turnabout from the normal matchup dynamics.
In a nutshell, think of storms as stacked lurkers with a minute-long cooldown on their spines. They may get one good hit, but they're not real fighting units.
On August 29 2010 11:20 Muirhead wrote: Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver? He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank.
That may be a good strategy since it gets an expo up early without exposing itself to much risk. That said, the reaver will be too late to do meaningful harassment. I'm not sure whether or not a 3rax push can arrive quickly enough to start bunkering & turreting, or it may be better to push off of 4rax and 1fac. Or a 2rax fast attack might work also, who knows - 1gate is pretty weak against bio. You can cut probes and add gateways to try to catch up, but I think 4rax of infantry will have you outnumbered unless you commit to a 2nd gateway sooner (you'll ultimately need more than 2gates worth of units coming from a 1gate opening, so I'd hesitate to take a fast 3rd). You could probably do without the reaver so early (obs first?) if you get that 2nd gate early, but it does at least force the Terran to think about bringing tanks earlier than he'd like (bunkers may be just as good though if you don't have a large goon army). I don't want to speculate too much, we should just play and find out.
Oh, and as clarification, when I say 3rax I mean you attack approximately when your 3rax are finished and you have medics + stimpack. You add more barracks after that since you'll have lots of minerals from the FE and you've been pumping SCVs the entire time so it's really more of a 4-5rax + fac push once everything is set up, but you can start the attack with just 3rax.
On August 29 2010 10:19 kineSiS- wrote: Bio... doesn't work very well... I would tell you why, but I think we can all see Best vs Mind for ourselves. :\
Please don't link a factory first... "Deep 4" build that should have won anyway if Mind actually used his reinforcements, and then dismiss this build.
My build pushes significantly sooner with more infantry and earlier upgrades. Imagine if Mind had held his natural without the tank, but instead of waiting a couple of minutes for his barracks to finish building, he'd already have pushed and likely won since Best took a greedy 3rd (a timing I mention in the OP).
On August 29 2010 11:20 Muirhead wrote: Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver? He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank.
That may be a good strategy since it gets an expo up early without exposing itself to much risk. That said, the reaver will be too late to do meaningful harassment. I'm not sure whether or not a 3rax push can arrive quickly enough to start bunkering & turreting, or it may be better to push off of 4rax and 1fac. Or a 2rax fast attack might work also, who knows - 1gate is pretty weak against bio. You can cut probes and add gateways to try to catch up, but I think 4rax of infantry will have you outnumbered unless you commit to a 2nd gateway sooner (you'll ultimately need more than 2gates worth of units coming from a 1gate opening, so I'd hesitate to take a fast 3rd). You could probably do without the reaver so early (obs first?) if you get that 2nd gate early, but it does at least force the Terran to think about bringing tanks earlier than he'd like (bunkers may be just as good though if you don't have a large goon army). I don't want to speculate too much, we should just play and find out.
Oh, and as clarification, when I say 3rax I mean you attack approximately when your 3rax are finished and you have medics + stimpack. You add more barracks after that since you'll have lots of minerals from the FE and you've been pumping SCVs the entire time so it's really more of a 4-5rax + fac push once everything is set up, but you can start the attack with just 3rax.
Downloading broodwar on my new laptop now :D
Results show that adjusting to 3gate at the moment you see scan sweep (no Terran has an academy that early, unless...), cutting probes, and microing like a gosu can halt a 2rax push (but not without the micro and early adjustment).
On August 29 2010 13:51 nath wrote: how do you not lose to even half-decently controled reavers
I build a wraith and I try to push just before the reaver finishes with turrets or when I have enough marines that I can afford losses. Tanks and turrets help to manage territory in the late game.
On August 29 2010 13:58 foppa wrote: do you mind playing this build against me? i have a few ideas on how to kill it and improve it
On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote: A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver.
These are very strong generalizations and assumptions. I assume you have replays to back up your conjecture? My gameplay may be amateur, but if you watch the games I posted you'll see there's tons of room for improvement in the mid and lategame - I don't always choose the best timing, but the game isn't necessarily lost on the first push. The midgame push is strong enough that Protoss has to play defensively, and it's early enough that the Terran can keep up on expansions.
On August 29 2010 23:54 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm somewhat theorycrafting here, but you'd be able to use EMP's irrads...
MNM vs semi-larg protosses armies can work, but having the same eco is key, and forcing big fights is probably key.
Yeah, this is what has been working for me so far. You have lots of gas since you'll reach 3 bases just pumping infantry with a little tank support. I like to add a second fac for extra tanks or a second port for dropships alongside vessels, but you'll want to get an early science facility anyway so that you can start your 2/2 upgrades. EMPs are very useful, and you'll have quite a bit of gas coming from 3 bases (1 refinery fuels 2tanks, 2 dropships, or ~1.5 vessels).
As for shuttles and reavers in the lategame, it's probably pushing the multitask bar even higher but ghosts are 100% viable. Hmm... I wonder if...
On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote: A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver.
These are very strong generalizations and assumptions. I assume you have replays to back up your conjecture? My gameplay may be amateur, but if you watch the games I posted you'll see there's tons of room for improvement in the mid and lategame - I don't always choose the best timing, but the game isn't necessarily lost on the first push. The midgame push is strong enough that Protoss has to play defensively, and it's early enough that the Terran can keep up on expansions.
My 1v1 in general is so rusty/bad that I would not be able to test this build in such a way that it'd be useful to you, but I know that if your mechanics are good and you stay roughly even with expansions, you'll be able to combat large goon zeal armies with either mnm tank or sk terran. As the armies get larger, the protoss might stick with reavers (which are easier to fight if you can dodge scarabs) or use HTs.
I'm somewhat theorycrafting here, but you'd be able to use EMP's irrads to deal with HT's unless the fights are so "even" that he's just using HT's in shuttles. If that's the case, and you make a mistake, you could be in trouble. Generally, if you can stay even with bases and use EMP's to punch holes in his armies while forcing fights in big open centers, there should be few problems. (This sorta thing happens in 2v2 TZvs PZ when TZ team goes bio. There are often situations when both zergs are either dead, or play a bit of a smaller role.)
MNM vs semi-larg protosses armies can work, but having the same eco is key, and forcing big fights is probably key.
On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote: A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver.
These are very strong generalizations and assumptions. I assume you have replays to back up your conjecture? My gameplay may be amateur, but if you watch the games I posted you'll see there's tons of room for improvement in the mid and lategame - I don't always choose the best timing, but the game isn't necessarily lost on the first push. The midgame push is strong enough that Protoss has to play defensively, and it's early enough that the Terran can keep up on expansions.
On August 29 2010 23:54 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm somewhat theorycrafting here, but you'd be able to use EMP's irrads...
MNM vs semi-larg protosses armies can work, but having the same eco is key, and forcing big fights is probably key.
Yeah, this is what has been working for me so far. You have lots of gas since you'll reach 3 bases just pumping infantry with a little tank support. I like to add a second fac for extra tanks or a second port for dropships alongside vessels, but you'll want to get an early science facility anyway so that you can start your 2/2 upgraudes. EMPs are very useful, and you'll have quite a bit of gas coming from 3 bases (1 refinery fuels 2tanks, 2 dropships, or ~1.5 vessels).
As for shuttles and reavers in the lategame, it's probably pushing the multitask bar even higher but ghosts are 100% viable. Hmm... I wonder if...
What am i assuming? Ive played against a few midgame mnm and its usually pretty easy to hold if i scout it. I havent faced thos build ever, but i welcome you or someone to try this at c level or above.
Can you be specific? What builds were used how did you counter them?
Looks really interesting... all we need is someone like Stylish or Lastshadow to test out this BO...
Just curious but are 3 bunkers really necessary against 2 gate goon into observers? Assuming that you have decent repair micro, I think one or two bunkers are plenty. (I'm only a D player, so i may be wrong) Having that extra hundred minerals could result in an earlier push/faster tech.
Of course, the threat of an all-in is viable but still...
people should at least give the build a good shot before they derail it.... i mean, you're overlooking possibly great benefits of this build by theorycrafting the weak points of the build and then dismissing it
Will try it out I think I have tried some random 3 rax on a toss who 2 gate which i didn't scout and I died badly .... Does this build order work against 2 gate or 3 gate toss ? Most of the opponent build order did 1 gate and some fast nexus . I don't think it really works on toss who plays aggressively in the beginning game.
On August 30 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote: Will try it out I think I have tried some random 3 rax on a toss who 2 gate which i didn't scout and I died badly .... Does this build order work against 2 gate or 3 gate toss ? Most of the opponent build order did 1 gate and some fast nexus . I don't think it really works on toss who plays aggressively in the beginning game.
well, the normal 1 rax FE build can hold against 2 gates, so it can most definitely hold 2 gates with range upped. And since this build gets more than 1 bunker, id say its safe vs 3 gates as well.
sounds interesting, after reading I went to iccup and tried it out, here are the results if you wanna see and comment if I did the build right, the opponent wasn't much (no offense meant), but I liked the transitions and how the build flows, naturally il have to try it out a lot more and against higher competition, but its fun.
On August 30 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote: Will try it out I think I have tried some random 3 rax on a toss who 2 gate which i didn't scout and I died badly .... Does this build order work against 2 gate or 3 gate toss ? Most of the opponent build order did 1 gate and some fast nexus . I don't think it really works on toss who plays aggressively in the beginning game.
You don't want to do that. The low infantry count can only beat 1gate safe economic play, otherwise it's better to build up a large army and push when Protoss takes his 3rd or wait for upgrade(s).
On August 29 2010 13:51 nath wrote: how do you not lose to even half-decently controled reavers
I played a C+ today and he raped me over and over again with a fast reaver, good micro, and 3 gateways for goon pressure at the natural (significantly delaying his own natural). The infantry can typically fend off the harassment, but I had to lift my natural - so you need to get a tank to help reclaim the natural. I'm uncertain from this sort of aggression and contain how best to follow up, but this is the most difficult thing to deal with at the moment. I'll post a rep later.
I also played numerous games against Severedevil (C rank?) and he went for a reaver after a FE, adding cannons to his natural to help deflect a push. In general I opted for 4rax and fac with 2x ebay upgrades followed by science facility. This push is big enough to get out of the door without much trouble but you need to wait for tanks to arrive to set up a contain (my macro typically slipped around here) - you can expand to your 3rd immediately. On Fighting Spirit it's pretty tough and slow to siege up the 3rd's ramp if there are cannons and reaver above - so it's probably best to amass units and solidify your contain. Fighting Spirit also has unbuildable terrain in a lot of places, so placing bunkers can be a pain. I imagine the safety of the 3rd and containability of the nat will vary from map to map. I'll post some reps later.
On August 30 2010 02:29 Sawamura wrote: Will try it out I think I have tried some random 3 rax on a toss who 2 gate which i didn't scout and I died badly .... Does this build order work against 2 gate or 3 gate toss ? Most of the opponent build order did 1 gate and some fast nexus . I don't think it really works on toss who plays aggressively in the beginning game.
well, the normal 1 rax FE build can hold against 2 gates, so it can most definitely hold 2 gates with range upped. And since this build gets more than 1 bunker, id say its safe vs 3 gates as well.
I'm paranoid and accustomed to ICCup players going all-in on a whim. 2rax may be good enough if the choke doesn't allow goons an angle to hit stuff, but you need to be vigilant on your repairs. It's the usual rax FE headache. I have a replay in my reppack of a 3gate all-in failing.
On August 30 2010 05:41 neobowman wrote: I tried using U-238 for defense in a 1 rax FE only, transitioning into mech soon after. I think this thing will be interesting to try.
About a year ago I saw a rep of a good player (B- I think) do a 2rax FE on Destination, decided he didn't want to pressure with the bio so he just sat behind one bunker (the bridges make it easy), and transitioned straight to mech. I haven't thought this through fully, but I don't think it's worthwhile to delay the mech unless you utilize the academy to pressure the toss in some way. Once he scouts you're going mech he can regain the economic edge. An mnm drop can do pretty good damage though. I've tried what you're suggesting in the past and my general feeling is that it's both excessive and risky. It's excessive because even though you're not repairing bunkers forever while waiting for a tank, you're spending 300/150 before you start your factory. I don't know if the difference in repair time is worth that much. It's risky because you won't have enough bio (no medics, no stim) or fast enough tanks to deal with harassment. At the moment I'm having difficulty dealing with fast reaver contains, so I'm getting an early factory to help, but I'm still relying primarily on mnm for defense.
On August 30 2010 06:27 zcxvbn wrote: I'd love to try my hand against this build - /f add me on iccup (just4funz) and msg me when i'm online
Umm, I have a lot of requests already, but I'll add you (add u.238). I usually play late night or early morning EST.
I think U-238 --> Mech is only productive against a gas steal. (And only then because your tank would be too late to defend dragoon aggression.) U-238 is a useless 150/150 for the entire rest of the game if you don't use marines.
he made alot more zealots than goons for some reason.
Speedlot/HT/Reaver is generally a smart composition against M&M. There's not much incentive to pump dragoons as the game goes on. (Still want a few to hit air, but no vultures --> don't really need dragoons.)
krndandaman, I'm watching your rep (thanks for trying it out):
(1) You mixed up the build a little, but I think it's fine for the most part. You may want to get a bunker sooner (zealot pressure can be a bitch and you don't have sim city), and you get your academy a little earlier than necessary. My build should give you enough gas to make both comsats and range as soon as it's finished. (2) Your scans showed no expansion, goons blocking ramp, only 2 pylons... It's pretty obvious you're missing some part of the picture but you don't place a turret at your entrance. You also should build a second bunker when you see 2gate no expansion. (3) I don't like the factory this early unless I know reavers are involved. You're probably better getting some extra infantry, defending any drops and staying safe behind bunkers until you know exactly what you're facing. (4) You left 4 marines in the bunker so you couldn't kill the DTs on the first try. You also don't appear to have very many SCVs. (5) Your opponent double expanded with only 3 dragoons... if you had more SCVs and were pumping more mnm you could push directly after stopping the harssment. (6) At 8:00 you're supply stuck and building tanks for no reason at all. I think what happens from here on out is very improvised. Your push is predominantly tanks, you should have far more infantry if you were macroing, and your push should have attacked earlier.
It's probably what higher level Terrans say when they see my replays, but I think you just outmacroed a bad opponent here. Nevertheless: bio is strong, isn't it?
On August 30 2010 08:46 Muirhead wrote: I would think a transition to pure mech after pushing and taking your 3rd would be advised though?
I already build tanks from 2facs (I could build more if I neglected starport units) so we're really just talking about vultures. I'm not convinced that vultures are superior to mnm. Mnm do far better dps to all units and perform better in drops, but they don't have spider mines.
I also worry how many barracks I might need to take offline while adding factories. It shouldn't be during a big push - maybe once I've established a contain? I don't think quitting bio cold turkey is a good idea, and vehicle upgrades are going to be very late.
There is also the option of using vultures alongside mnm to spider mine potential flanks and to help solidify the contain. Because the toss will be relying on zealots and templar vultures could be very handy for sniping units when no reavers or goons are nearby.
My general feeling is that mixing some in for the spider mines could be really helpful (similar to TvZ lategame), but a total transition won't be good until I have some upgrades and a lot of tanks.
There are also circumstances where it's better to stick on bio. If the toss goes for arbiters or carriers, upgraded infantry are pretty awesome. So the bio forces the toss to stick to zealots (anti-tank, low gas) and support units (anti-bio, high gas for DTs, low production rate and poor mobility for reavers).
On August 30 2010 10:32 krndandaman wrote: imo, the toss should 1gate triple expand with no tech cept goon range. then tech quickly to high templar while massing units.
terran will be in no position to push out early to hit the timing because of late stim, low marine count, no tanks.
Terran can push at any time after they research Stim, and they have two early scanners to tell them whether or not Protoss can defend it. If Protoss has no army for that long, Protoss will die.
On August 30 2010 10:32 krndandaman wrote: imo, the toss should 1gate triple expand with no tech cept goon range. then tech quickly to high templar while massing units.
terran will be in no position to push out early to hit the timing because of late stim, low marine count, no tanks.
Terran can push at any time after they research Stim, and they have two early scanners to tell them whether or not Protoss can defend it. If Protoss has no army for that long, Protoss will die.
Cool to see more Terrans trying the build though!
by the time the terran has stim he has around like 8 rines 2med.
im pretty sure even 5 goons can outmicro that easy. which you should have at they very least that amount since you're not really cutting probes/goon because you're off 1gate. after the triple you should 2 or 3 more gates while going citadel.
8marines 2meds with both stim and range will beat five dragoons easily. Microing with 5 dragoons isn't going to do shit if the marines have range and stim.
I can tell you the biggest problem with this build is that you are doing 18 cc on spot and they will defintely know you have expanded early - point 1, also most people pressure after goon range, if you get U238 at all, they will suspect bio - point 2, that and the extremely late or rather no tank = point 3. I would just skip robo and go with 6gate speed zlot/goon into templar. [After 1gate FE]
I think the reason you never see these on higher level games is basically because of some minor things will seem to give away your build. Especially if you're making more than 1 bunker.
I agree with dRaW. Almost no decent protoss will not tech to reavers/templars if they realize that you're making more than 1 bunker, and the bunkers can actually hit their ranged dragoons. It makes me wonder if the protoss will just take his reaver and start breaking your bunkers while massing units. I mean the only reason that Protoss vs Mech Terran wants to be +1 base ahead of the terran is because terran units are so resilient, whereas the protoss needs to constantly (well not constantly, but you get the point) replace his. However, I don't think the protoss needs to worry about out expanding the terran when they realize that T is going for bio. Therefore, that leaves them with extra minerals to tech and macro earlier on, stopping the timing. When the timing is stopped and the protoss do get templars...the Terran needs some hardcore MnM spread/dodging to not get their army raped by high templars. As for SV EMPing. Most decent protoss carry templars in their shuttles, hence SV wont sap their energy.
Edit: WTF was I thinking, typing irradiating. =.= I meant EMPing
You should be able to handle 2goons without too much trouble as a general rax FE opener. You need to bring SCVs to block the ramp (drill) and unload marines (you should have enough marines and SCVs to kill the surrounded goons quickly) or quickly place an ebay/depot when you spot a runby attempt. If 2 goons messed up your entire econ then you're going to lose no matter what.
The micro you employ depends on who has the larger army. You need to focus goons and retreat for medic healing if you have inferior numbers... but you shouldn't be attacking if you don't have enough infantry. If you have roughly equal numbers (I don't know the marine/goon conversion rate, but it's roughly 2 or 3 to 1), it is sometimes better to not stim in a standup fight so that your medics can heal the damage before your marine instantly dies (this is very important in small fights and when you are doing drops and have only a couple of units). Once you have superior numbers (you have a good timing), you can stim and attack move and the goons must flee, but I like to take an extra control group and run a flank so as to prevent hold position micro - if he doesn't move he will lose many goons.
On August 30 2010 12:04 renzy wrote: I agree with dRaW. Almost no decent protoss will not tech to reavers/templars if they realize that you're making more than 1 bunker, and the bunkers can actually hit their ranged dragoons. It makes me wonder if the protoss will just take his reaver and start breaking your bunkers while massing units. I mean the only reason that Protoss vs Mech Terran wants to be +1 base ahead of the terran is because terran units are so resilient, whereas the protoss needs to constantly (well not constantly, but you get the point) replace his. However, I don't think the protoss needs to worry about out expanding the terran when they realize that T is going for bio. Therefore, that leaves them with extra minerals to tech and macro earlier on, stopping the timing. When the timing is stopped and the protoss do get templars...the Terran needs some hardcore MnM spread/dodging to not get their army raped by high templars. As for SV EMPing. Most decent protoss carry templars in their shuttles, hence SV wont sap their energy.
Edit: WTF was I thinking, typing irradiating. =.= I meant EMPing
If the Protoss waits until he sees marine range or a second bunker to tech reaver then that's fine. I played games against Muirhead and Severedevil that had a similar reaver timing that followed a 1gate FE and it's nowhere near as frightening as a 1gate fast reaver which has the potential to harass and break bunkers, but this is a blind build choice. The comsats are up very early so there is ample time to prepare defenses.
As for EMP and templar, unless you're using more than one shuttle, the bulk of your templar will be on the ground. I know that it's difficult to push against goons with shuttle reaver micro. You really need tanks to 1hit-kill the reavers when your infantry retreat since a good toss can almost always outrun stimmed infantry if he has goons to support. It's generally a costly idea to stim and try to spike the shuttle when dragoons are present, but there are ways to get around this. I could show you reps killing the shuttle and being killed by the shuttle - it's really a matter of army size and control - being able to flank is important.
The way you talk about this strat and all the effort you put into it makes it sound viable. I just don't know how effective it would be late game. I'm not sure if I read correctly when you said push 90 psi (9:00). Did you mean 9 minutes into the game? If so there is no way two control groups of marines should be able to do anything to a protoss that late in the game. You seem to have it all figured out in the strat but have you actually played and come across all those situations?
Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read.
On August 31 2010 00:33 Ocular wrote: The way you talk about this strat and all the effort you put into it makes it sound viable. I just don't know how effective it would be late game. I'm not sure if I read correctly when you said push 90 psi (9:00). Did you mean 9 minutes into the game? If so there is no way two control groups of marines should be able to do anything to a protoss that late in the game. You seem to have it all figured out in the strat but have you actually played and come across all those situations?
Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read.
at the 9 minute mark how many dragoons do you have? lol do you gate 4 off 1 base no expo? t.t
I watched some of the replays and it looked like a well controlled range dragoon rush as well as any kind of fast reaver completely demolishes your defenses before you get a fighting force up. Even if they "blindly" do fast reavers as you put it, it's not that unusual and I really don't like having a weakness like that in my build. Also placing the bunkers directly side by side really hurts your ability to repair them and if you can't hold on to the bunkers, range alone won't do you any good.
It's interesting nonetheless but I think the (perceived) strength of it mostly stems from opponents not being used to this kind of bio aggression and I'm not sure whether it would fare very well against players more experienced with bio PvT.
On August 31 2010 00:33 Ocular wrote: The way you talk about this strat and all the effort you put into it makes it sound viable. I just don't know how effective it would be late game. I'm not sure if I read correctly when you said push 90 psi (9:00). Did you mean 9 minutes into the game? If so there is no way two control groups of marines should be able to do anything to a protoss that late in the game. You seem to have it all figured out in the strat but have you actually played and come across all those situations?
Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read.
No, around 9:00 you have 3-4 control groups of marines (and 1 of medics) from around 5raxes, 1-1 upgrades, a factory building tanks, and starport/sci under construction. Using this timing always gets me an easy 3rd and time to establish a contain. From there it really depends on macro and the outcome of battles/harassment. It's up for discussion whether it's better to hold territory with tanks, use dropships for harassment, or transition to a vulture tank army.
I was saying that if you want to push earlier it's usually good to wait for 2 control groups so that you can perform flanks. I don't really like pushing with just one group because goon micro can stop a weak push.
On August 31 2010 01:27 ven wrote: I watched some of the replays and it looked like a well controlled range dragoon rush as well as any kind of fast reaver completely demolishes your defenses before you get a fighting force up. Even if they "blindly" do fast reavers as you put it, it's not that unusual and I really don't like having a weakness like that in my build. Also placing the bunkers directly side by side really hurts your ability to repair them and if you can't hold on to the bunkers, range alone won't do you any good.
I totally agree with you about the fast reaver, but not say, a 10/15 rush (you will have 2-3 bunkers up in time and U-238 finished very early, so it's practically an economic build order win if you just repair the bunkers). I played a C+ and although I had turrets and my mnm could defend the main from the cliff, there wasn't much I could do to save my natural from scarabs. I played repeatedly and adjusted until I was eventually getting a factory (alongside 2raxes) upon scouting a reaver so that I could siege expand back to my natural (with a good number of mnm also). Because the Protoss expands much later doing this opening, it isn't clear who comes out ahead. I'm still looking for a better solution than floating my CC and waiting for siege, and this is the most difficult thing I'm dealing with at the moment.
On August 31 2010 01:27 ven wrote: I watched some of the replays and it looked like a well controlled range dragoon rush as well as any kind of fast reaver completely demolishes your defenses before you get a fighting force up. Even if they "blindly" do fast reavers as you put it, it's not that unusual and I really don't like having a weakness like that in my build. Also placing the bunkers directly side by side really hurts your ability to repair them and if you can't hold on to the bunkers, range alone won't do you any good.
Blind fast reavers, particularly with a proxy robo and 1 --> 2/3 gateways of dragoon/zealot support, is a serious threat to kill any Terran fast expand. I'm not actually convinced it's more dangerous to an infantry opening than a mech opening. Mech can't hit the shuttle, and has lower move speeds and DPS than marines with stim.
On August 31 2010 01:27 ven wrote: I watched some of the replays and it looked like a well controlled range dragoon rush as well as any kind of fast reaver completely demolishes your defenses before you get a fighting force up. Even if they "blindly" do fast reavers as you put it, it's not that unusual and I really don't like having a weakness like that in my build. Also placing the bunkers directly side by side really hurts your ability to repair them and if you can't hold on to the bunkers, range alone won't do you any good.
Blind fast reavers, particularly with a proxy robo and 1 --> 2/3 gateways of dragoon/zealot support, is a serious threat to kill any Terran fast expand. I'm not actually convinced it's more dangerous to an infantry opening than a mech opening. Mech can't hit the shuttle, and has lower move speeds and DPS than marines with stim.
rather than the actual harass, i found the 1gate reaver -> nexus much scarier. the reaver comes very fast so you basically get 1) acad stim/range 2) ebay up/turret 3) factory tank/siege which negates any economic advantage you would've had from the 1rax CC because you're getting all that very very early.
a goon reaver attack is a huge threat as the reaver will just 4hit your bunk, and even faster if you do a simultaneous goon attack with a scarab. your bunk will almost instantly die. especially if the toss micros well, you're pretty much done.
Yeah, you have to lift the CC and retreat your units to the main. Any ideas?
I went through the thread and none of you have considered 1 rax fe--> tanks --> bio seems like it would give you a lot better defense early game against tech, you deny scouting + your build early on with turret ring. and a stronger push with biomech. and in my opinion a lot safer transition since your off two fact/
Watch Leta VS Pure (leta loses but he did make a ton of mistakes) Classic vs Best (really good representation of what im talking about instead of getting the range early on)
On August 31 2010 07:17 guMmiwormz wrote: I went through the thread and none of you have considered 1 rax fe--> tanks --> bio seems like it would give you a lot better defense early game against tech, you deny scouting + your build early on with turret ring. and a stronger push with biomech. and in my opinion a lot safer transition since your off two fact/
Watch Leta VS Pure (leta loses but he did make a ton of mistakes) Classic vs Best (really good representation of what im talking about instead of getting the range early on)
Thanks for mentioning this. BeSt eventually had a similar composition (5rax 2fac 1port) to what I've got, but you're right that it is safer early on. The big difference is switching the push army composition from predominantly tanks to infantry, but after the push things normalize to the same composition.
There are also different timings to consider. This strategy feels all or nothing because the tanks lack mobility and couldn't be split up to say, defend an expansion or harass Protoss expansions. It needs to contain and kill on the first try.
With a predominantly bio army, you can take a 3rd and harass with dropships or push with tanks and bunkers. With a predominantly tank army you will only have enough infantry to support one group of tanks, and ... [still watching Leta's game]
On August 31 2010 07:17 guMmiwormz wrote: I went through the thread and none of you have considered 1 rax fe--> tanks --> bio seems like it would give you a lot better defense early game against tech, you deny scouting + your build early on with turret ring. and a stronger push with biomech. and in my opinion a lot safer transition since your off two fact/
Watch Leta VS Pure (leta loses but he did make a ton of mistakes) Classic vs Best (really good representation of what im talking about instead of getting the range early on)
Thanks for mentioning this. BeSt eventually had a similar composition (5rax 2fac 1port) to what I've got, but you're right that it is safer early on. The big difference is switching the push army composition from predominantly tanks to infantry, but after the push things normalize to the same composition.
There are also different timings to consider.
And the tanks lack mobility - harassment potential, so we are talking about a different midgame mentality.
sounds alot like deep6 to me basically.
1rax fe -> tank -> bio
No, Deep 6 devotes everything to bio and pushes with a few tanks. The 2fac build gets significantly more tanks and pushes with a much smaller bio force - but reinforces from 5rax.
this is such a gimmicky build. im realizing why i always thought that bio wasnt viable. these timings are more one push all in. its so hard to play late game with mnm. ive been playing off 4 base 9 rax and my 4 groups of mnm are getting beat back by 5 temps and 10 goons. its great berfore they get out tech. after it just goes downhill.
On August 31 2010 10:37 guMmiwormz wrote: this is such a gimmicky build. im realizing why i always thought that bio wasnt viable. these timings are more one push all in. its so hard to play late game with mnm. ive been playing off 4 base 9 rax and my 4 groups of mnm are getting beat back by 5 temps and 10 goons. its great berfore they get out tech. after it just goes downhill.
I see you streaming but cannot comment.
Can you try the 4rax 2x ebay push --> 5rax 1fac and tech to dropships while expanding?
This build is a lot of fun ive been trying it lately and it works wonders.
this is playerd at loww D+ level btw.
I havent faced reavers thanks heaven but i will eventually. Templar tech does not worry me as it is heavy tech and i can just timing push and kill him easy. The one thing that bothers me though is the mech transition. There is a timing in wich your marines count is pretty low and you just dont have enough tanks to defend your third and your natural at the same time, while building up your factories.
On August 31 2010 16:58 CaucasianAsian wrote: [url blocked]
thats the rep i played with him if you want to watch it. i didn't play too well, I was pretty taken off guard with the build.
lol the guy didn't bother to build a single mech unit for the whole game. That's hilarious.
Have to say that when templar start to pop up 4 by 4, it becomes plain silly to keep playing MM. Storms rape marines 8 by 8, and there is nothing youn can do about that since they die instantly.
I guess the guy could have win with his first push if he had brought 8 or so scvs with him and forced your nat.
I tend to think after Terran takes his third, he shouldn't add any more raxes, and transition from bio-with-mech-support to mech-with-bio-support. Bio is so hard to control when you have more than around four hotkeys that I think it stops being practical to fill out more than half your army's supply.
On August 31 2010 16:58 CaucasianAsian wrote: [url blocked]
thats the rep i played with him if you want to watch it. i didn't play too well, I was pretty taken off guard with the build.
lol the guy didn't bother to build a single mech unit for the whole game. That's hilarious.
Have to say that when templar start to pop up 4 by 4, it becomes plain silly to keep playing MM. Storms rape marines 8 by 8, and there is nothing youn can do about that since they die instantly.
I guess the guy could have win with his first push if he had brought 8 or so scvs with him and forced your nat.
lol that was me. i was streaming a couple games of the build just trying it out. didnt end well. pretty much cuz i tried to go sk terran mass rax P and i was actually 832-U. lol.
On August 31 2010 16:58 CaucasianAsian wrote: [url blocked]
thats the rep i played with him if you want to watch it. i didn't play too well, I was pretty taken off guard with the build.
lol the guy didn't bother to build a single mech unit for the whole game. That's hilarious.
Have to say that when templar start to pop up 4 by 4, it becomes plain silly to keep playing MM. Storms rape marines 8 by 8, and there is nothing youn can do about that since they die instantly.
I guess the guy could have win with his first push if he had brought 8 or so scvs with him and forced your nat.
Wouldn't it be possible to get SV out in time to EMP those HTs?
On August 31 2010 17:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 31 2010 16:58 CaucasianAsian wrote: [url blocked]
thats the rep i played with him if you want to watch it. i didn't play too well, I was pretty taken off guard with the build.
lol the guy didn't bother to build a single mech unit for the whole game. That's hilarious.
Have to say that when templar start to pop up 4 by 4, it becomes plain silly to keep playing MM. Storms rape marines 8 by 8, and there is nothing youn can do about that since they die instantly.
I guess the guy could have win with his first push if he had brought 8 or so scvs with him and forced your nat.
Wouldn't it be possible to get SV out in time to EMP those HTs?
its a lot harder then emping arbs. since arbs stay in front but if the hts are in like the 2nd control group theyll be covered by goons. even son yea its possible when i meant sk terran i was also making vessels. but even 1 storm can kill a ton of rines.
I think to use EMP properly... depends on what's happening. If you eliminate a third like 832U did and get out vessels, you can scan the nat to see if he has any HT. If you can get off an EMP then you can start pushing in to trade units. If not, try and patrol the map without getting stormed.
It's probably possible to just let P move out if you have a very wide arc and you're ready to flank+EMP on the drop of a hat.
If you're transitioning to mech, you can always use constant vultures to scout out precise army positions then go in for the EMP's.
But since your APM and general skill level is probably quite a bit higher than mine, I can't really say.
I actually want to see some sort of mass drop variation of this like dropping in main, natural and third or fourth expo with Dropships full of MnMs to harass the eco and then move in with a bigger MnMs (bionic production should be faster than Mech) to divide the Protoss' army OR just play it lol Zerg style by going Wraith/MnMs with Wraith doing HT sniping lol (they can kill off Shuttles with Reavers too). That would be fun to see.
On August 31 2010 17:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 31 2010 16:58 CaucasianAsian wrote: [url blocked]
thats the rep i played with him if you want to watch it. i didn't play too well, I was pretty taken off guard with the build.
lol the guy didn't bother to build a single mech unit for the whole game. That's hilarious.
Have to say that when templar start to pop up 4 by 4, it becomes plain silly to keep playing MM. Storms rape marines 8 by 8, and there is nothing youn can do about that since they die instantly.
I guess the guy could have win with his first push if he had brought 8 or so scvs with him and forced your nat.
Wouldn't it be possible to get SV out in time to EMP those HTs?
Problem is, you would basically lose a vessel each time you emp, since vessel die in a second to goons, and EMP templars is muuuch harder than EMP Arbiters. Keep also in mind that you can't emp many templar at a time, because EMp covers a very limited area.
Now, while losing your vessel, you don't even kill their templars. They can retreat and wait a couple of minutes.
I would say that it's almost a better bet to irradiate templars and play hardcore SKTerran with a vessel cloud since it's much easier to irradiate than to EMP.
In the other hand, youu can make a lot of tanks and vultures and...
On September 01 2010 00:19 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm thinking this... does a toss need so many observers vs heavy bionic play? Probably not. 4-8 cloaked ghosts for HT sniping. lololo.
I hope you realize that your ghost cost 75 gas each + 200 for the cloack tech and that when an observer shows up, they die basically instantly.
On September 01 2010 00:19 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm thinking this... does a toss need so many observers vs heavy bionic play? Probably not. 4-8 cloaked ghosts for HT sniping. lololo.
Nah ghosts can't do shit against HTs, they do like so little damage (10 damage).
What I was thinking is the variation of Bionic play against a regular gate core build by Protoss/12 Nexus. Make one tank and make Terran thinking that its mech OR like make sure that the scouting probes dies before you finish Factory so you can cancel the factory in making and add another 2 barrack. If the factory finishes, you can either make the machine shop for defending a bit the early Goon/Zealot OR make vulture to get better scouting information.
Then afterward, you push as soon as the stim finishes and have a production of 4 barrack pressure into his natural which would force him to defend BUT don't overcommit because he is probable rushing for HTs or DTs (easier to fend off than Storms cuz of your early Academy therefore earlier scans) or Reavers which in this case, you need to have the Turrets set up in that contain. While doing that, tech up to like 2 Port Wraith OR HIya's 3 Port and hide those wraith, it takes some research to get that timing whne HTs pops out, you should've gotten like 10 Wraith to one hit those HTs. Constantly scan its macro area and when the Psionic storm finishes researching or when he makes the push, cloak the Wraith and then pick off as much HTs as possible, that would leave them a Zealot/Dragoon army which can be taken care of with good massed up MnMs and 6 Barracks macroing up.
I was watching gummiwormz stream this build. If you really want to beat some Protoss players mid to late game, somewhere you have to make factory units. SKTerran is a big nono like how gummiwormz found out ><.
Okay I just tried this build...and I have no idea how it would hold off a reaver harass. A regular mech army can atleast prevent him from freely dropping the reaver, while buying time for turrets. Marines just melt hard to reavers...hard...
On August 31 2010 00:33 Ocular wrote: The way you talk about this strat and all the effort you put into it makes it sound viable. I just don't know how effective it would be late game. I'm not sure if I read correctly when you said push 90 psi (9:00). Did you mean 9 minutes into the game? If so there is no way two control groups of marines should be able to do anything to a protoss that late in the game. You seem to have it all figured out in the strat but have you actually played and come across all those situations?
Even without any tech if I just mass goons at the 9 minute mark I could easily defeat two control groups of marines. I'd really enjoy watching replays of this strat in action though vs all these different builds. Perhaps I'm being a bit bias because I am a toss player. Either way it was a interesting and well thought out read.
at the 9 minute mark how many dragoons do you have? lol do you gate 4 off 1 base no expo? t.t
Its called micro. Also at the 9 minute mark any protoss should have scouted the build long ago and coming up with a way to counter. I'm not saying its not a good build I just don't think it would have a successful win ratio over c-
i lol'd really badly at the guy who beat you by opening with 1 base 1 gate 1 goon proxy 2 stargate scouts
i watched some of your replays, u lost more than you really should have, and most of the wins were against really bad people who had idle gateways for a lengthy period of time
i really dont see this working against better players
On August 31 2010 18:12 Severedevil wrote: I tend to think after Terran takes his third, he shouldn't add any more raxes, and transition from bio-with-mech-support to mech-with-bio-support. Bio is so hard to control when you have more than around four hotkeys that I think it stops being practical to fill out more than half your army's supply.
I'm also not sold on the second engineering bay.
I don't think our games are representative of how a progamer might treat this build. I can't even keep up with the macro and we're still having pretty even exchanges (I've just been throwing wave after wave at you until your defenses finally earn you the advantage). I can build a cloud of vessels but will probably miss many opportunities to EMP templar, so I'm not convinced that a large bionic army with tank/vessel support is hard-countered by some wondrous caster. The fact that I have so much money and idle buildings/units just shows that this can be a lot meaner than I'm demonstrating.
If it's possible to earn midgame map control then a mech transition should build on top of this momentum. I'm thinking a lategame mentality might look like: (1) Use vultures and mines to further restrict army movement while harassing anti-bio units (zealot,HT). Spider mines force goons+obs or carriers to efficiently clear minefields. Observers take gas from templars and build queue time from reavers. Goons are pretty worthless against a large tank/mnm army. (2) Try to keep Protoss on 3 bases while staying ahead economically. Punish aggression with dropship harass, vulture runby & flanks. Slow push with tanks to where Protoss tries to expand. (3) Infantry in bunkers are good defense against recalls, and mnm can respond to recall more quickly and effectively than tanks.
What about carriers? I assume the infantry can just wear down the minerals provided the Protoss is barred from expansion.
On August 31 2010 22:29 Thesecretaznman wrote: If you're transitioning to mech, you can always use constant vultures to scout out precise army positions then go in for the EMP's.
Screw that, just spike em all with the vultures and run away.
We can open paper, but we've got a rock for ya scissaz.
On September 01 2010 06:03 krndandaman wrote: would you ever switch to full mech? I think by playing by this, you're trying to play a harass style in the mid/late game but that could be stomped easy by just 3 cannons or so at each base. more if he notices you're going heavy harass. he would just secure more bases and will just keep up his protoss maxed army filled with high temp, goon, zeal, reaver(?), arbiter(?), etc. and if you ever do switch to mech that is when he will roll you over with superior upgrade and econ.
and i think it would be still hard to defend recalls... just imagine a recall fly down with like 8 goons, 4 zeal, 2 high temps. as he stasises units that come up and storms on the ramp.
imo late game is just suicide with bio... anything over 20 minutes should be gg for bio in almost all cases
I really thing this is all speculation and negativity at this point - we need games to tell us what an actual lategame should look like.
If I have some time (I have very little these days) I'll try to play around with the more moderate strategy that has developed out of this thread.
I've been playing around with this and some other bio builds and there's just a few things I want to say.
The build you outlined in the OP is pretty inefficient. There's no reason for you to build that second depot so early. It would just be much more efficient to 1rax fe in the way the professional Terrans players have been doing recently. Making three bunkers so fast also seems to be an overreaction. Bunker count should be adjusted depending on what you need. Usually the most you'll ever need is two, and there's a lot of times where all you'll need is one.
For upgrades, I think it's better to get +1 armor before +1 attack. The +1 armor makes your marines much hardier against dts and goons, although dts shouldn't be too big of a problem since you get scans quite early, so that when you attack you should have enough scans. During combat I find that the +1 armor does a lot more for your marines even when reavers and hts are involved.
I'm not really satisfied with any tech timings yet. I'm not convinced this build can ever be a "standard" as in a build that can go into the midgame/lategame without doing grievous damage prior to it. I think it's best to just completely focus everything into killing him with a 2base all-in and only expanding and teching after you have managed to kill his natural.
^ I already corrected and mentioned appropriate bunker count (I only build 3 when I know an all in is coming and I build a 2nd if I failed to scout the main, but you can try 1bunker if you like). I've been getting +1/+1 but I'll start working with just the armor, since 2ebays is a little costly.
I'm not convinced a normal rax FE is better than this. If the Protoss sends a zealot then a normal rax FE cuts marines and won't have a bunker up fast enough for 1 marine to defend the CC, so the CC is delayed anyway. My method has continuous marines and SCVs so you can fight the zealot before you have a bunker - as long as the bunker is done when the goon arrives. You can place a depot on 12 because you don't need the early refinery to start collecting gas for a factory.
I start the refinery at around the same time as the academy so that you can get an upgrade and 2 comsats immediately, but you won't need your refinery much earlier, so you have the minerals to place an early depot, which allows you continuous marines and SCVs through 18/18. Let me know if you can think of a better arrangement toward the same objective (what's the point in having a slightly faster CC just to have a supply block at 18/18 or be forced to cut marines?).
You only really cut 1marine, to make your cc before marine, and you make the marine right after the cc is finished. After that there isn't much cutting at all. You will have your expansion up earlier. If you want to 1rax fe with marine first then you'll make your second depot before CC, and even here the build will be much more fluid as you're not making a depot when it is not necessary. There just really isn't any reason to make your depot that early. You can have seamless scv and marine production without having to make the unnecessary depot at 12. It just isn't necessary at all. It only slows down your build for little to no reason.
Yeah, I don't think you should get a second engineering bay either. I honestly think you should only get up to +1/+1 with armor first, weapons later, and only tech up to factory. I think it is just much better to add factories rather than try to tech to vessels before that and in the unfortunate scenario of you being unable to kill him, taking your third is also a higher priority than getting vessels. The main justifications for getting up to five raxes is due to the fact that we need to attack very quickly early on and also because of the fact that we are planning on doing a bio build will be obvious once he realizes that his dragoons aren't outranging the marines in the bunker, but after this point tanks are absolutely crucial. As the game prolongs, even for a little bit longer, we are unable to win in a fight without tanks. So I think it is best to freeze the rax count at 5 and just add on factories from there on.
On September 01 2010 06:03 krndandaman wrote: would you ever switch to full mech? I think by playing by this, you're trying to play a harass style in the mid/late game but that could be stomped easy by just 3 cannons or so at each base. more if he notices you're going heavy harass. he would just secure more bases and will just keep up his protoss maxed army filled with high temp, goon, zeal, reaver(?), arbiter(?), etc. and if you ever do switch to mech that is when he will roll you over with superior upgrade and econ.
and i think it would be still hard to defend recalls... just imagine a recall fly down with like 8 goons, 4 zeal, 2 high temps. as he stasises units that come up and storms on the ramp.
imo late game is just suicide with bio... anything over 20 minutes should be gg for bio in almost all cases
I really thing this is all speculation and negativity at this point - we need games to tell us what an actual lategame should look like.
If I have some time (I have very little these days) I'll try to play around with the more moderate strategy that has developed out of this thread.
the point is, most of the time( like 99%) you will not reach late game... its so hard to reach lategame let alone SURVIVE lategame with bio in tvp.
the thing is, scouting that the terran is going bio is not hard at all. that u-238 upgrade alone is instant giveaway.
after that, as protoss, you just need to mass up and tech to templars asap and make sure that the game doesnt end before mid to late game. (where toss definitely has advantage in tech)
the toss gets templars quicker than the terran gets vessel with EMP, AND the toss can produce templars quicker and in more mass than vessels.
a few templars alone has the potential to wipe out like 40 supply of marine/medic in an instant.
this build really should not win much at all past C level.
You could say that more easily about Deep Six, which is viable at the professional level.
I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep?
On September 01 2010 10:56 krndandaman wrote: in this build, you see the range, and you're like "oh, its bio haha" you have a good old time just macroing off like 6gates and skipping robo tech while getting citadel/temp archives. like 8minutes later the terran FINALLY pushes out and you just crush it ezpz with 6 templars, some speedlots and goons.
This is far from an accurate portrayal. In my opinion this is actually a bad reaction since it creates a timing window before the gateways and templar finish, and it only takes bunkers at the natural to counter templar, if not stimpack micro. You will need time to collect gas from your natural and for storm to research and for the templar to get 25 more energy, so you need to survive long enough that bunkers and tanks don't end up at your natural. Remember that the Terran can push as soon as he has enough infantry to beat whatever units you have out - if that's a 1gate nexus opening then you're not going to be in trouble.
If you're good at moving your infantry around then it really isn't too hard to avoid storms (I mean you can see them hovering toward you). It's only when you're not looking or have to hold your ground that storms are devastating. I don't think a modern programer would have much difficulty minimizing losses to storm, given how good of multitasking they have to babysit their armies.
And there is no reason to push if the Protoss is going to do all of that (cutting probes and delaying a 3rd to afford it all in time). So the Terran can just advance and take their 3rd and continue to macro - tech switching afterwards if they like.
A more sensible reaction would be to get a shuttle (or two) with reavers and try to demand that tanks accompany infantry wherever they go while expanding to a 3rd - you can at least prevent an all-bio 3rd expansion or push by getting a reaver. If a push does come for you then cannon up your natural and 3rd and add gateways, but rely on reavers to wear down the infantry size until more units are ready to fight the push.
On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
Muirhead observed that the comsats are finished and scan a few seconds before range completes, so if you spot the scan sweep animation at this timing you know that there almost certainly isn't a factory. In my games with him he tried adjusting to 3gate with reaver immediately after seeing the scan sweep and this was sufficient to stop an early all-bio attack.
On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep?
I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game.
On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep?
I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game.
You can just take your natural refinery in the event of a gas steal.
On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep?
I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game.
You can just take your natural refinery in the event of a gas steal.
Yes, in addition to doing a 15cc, putting a bunker at your natural, and getting range if you want to. Admittedly, getting the range upgrade is a bit more unorthodox than everything else. Flash does the 15cc + bunker + natural gas bit, but I haven't seen him get range.
Do you really think that a 1rax opening terran (even if you're going bio) even has the option of pushing out against a 2base toss? In my opinion, there really isn't a timing window since you will have 1 tank at the most and a mix of goon,speedlot, and a dt or 2 would kill your army easy.
I just tried this build twice. Once vs a korean, and I think I pushed too early and failed to do significant damage, but I kept pushing hoping to bust him. That was a bad idea. Since I was so focused on mpushing, I failed to put down my floating third and transfer SCV's.
Second game, I failed to repair because I was microing my scouting scv too hard lol.
Then he called me a noob and I raped him with standard TvP in the second game (with him.) I think I'll need more time to get used to this build before I can offer any real advice.
Do you really think that a 1rax opening terran (even if you're going bio) even has the option of pushing out against a 2base toss? In my opinion, there really isn't a timing window since you will have 1 tank at the most and a mix of goon,speedlot, and a dt or 2 would kill your army easy.
FD pushes beg to differ.
? incase you didn't know, I meant 1rax CC. (as it's the opener for this build) so you can't FD out of 1rax CC...
also, FD can only push out against 1gate builds, and even then you usually retreat after adding some pressure.
It's more like 1rax CC --> immediately add more rax after the CC finishes and there is a good chance the toss will take a fast 3rd to catch up, or at least send in an observer before overreacting. This 6gate/HT nonsense is not only too expensive to try before your economy is developed, it is slow to set up - which only tells me that you're speculating a counter-strategy and not speaking from evidence. Either that or you're accustomed to a Deep 6 timing which (as I've said) is much later than this build's rollout timing.
From evidence, it is sufficient to build only 3 of the 6 gates in addition to a shuttle + reaver, then expand to your third (have a forge for cannons in case things get messy), and then continue to add gates & tech to HT and zealot leg speed. Your 3rd and HT won't (shouldn't unless you're overreacting) be finished in time for an mnm+tank push so you will have to fight with what you have or yield a contain / 3rd to the Terran. To be honest, your templar won't be out in with storm and energy in time to stop siege tanks from setting up, and the bulk of your units will melt if they engage ... you're best off getting a reaver for defense and waiting for legs/storm before trying to retake map control. If you have good shuttle control you may be able to do a lot of damage, but stimmed marines will kill it if it gets too close to tank range.
On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote: I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep?
I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game.
You can just take your natural refinery in the event of a gas steal.
Yes, in addition to doing a 15cc, putting a bunker at your natural, and getting range if you want to. Admittedly, getting the range upgrade is a bit more unorthodox than everything else. Flash does the 15cc + bunker + natural gas bit, but I haven't seen him get range.
I'm not aware of any pro or "good" foreigner getting range and going mech (I assume if Kawaiirice used it he was in a particular danger of dragoon all-in after a gas steal, or he was just being cute). The cost doesn't justify the marginal safety gain you might get, and I certainly don't think it's worth playing mind games this way.
Do you really think that a 1rax opening terran (even if you're going bio) even has the option of pushing out against a 2base toss? In my opinion, there really isn't a timing window since you will have 1 tank at the most and a mix of goon,speedlot, and a dt or 2 would kill your army easy.
FD pushes beg to differ.
? incase you didn't know, I meant 1rax CC. (as it's the opener for this build) so you can't FD out of 1rax CC...
also, FD can only push out against 1gate builds, and even then you usually retreat after adding some pressure.
It's more like 1rax CC --> immediately add more rax after the CC finishes and there is a good chance the toss will take a fast 3rd to catch up, or at least send in an observer before overreacting. This 6gate/HT nonsense is not only too expensive to try before your economy is developed, it is slow to set up - which only tells me that you're speculating a counter-strategy and not speaking from evidence. Either that or you're accustomed to a Deep 6 timing which (as I've said) is much later than this build's rollout timing.
From evidence, it is sufficient to build only 3 of the 6 gates in addition to a shuttle + reaver, then expand to your third (have a forge for cannons in case things get messy), and then continue to add gates & tech to HT and zealot leg speed. Your 3rd and HT won't (shouldn't unless you're overreacting) be finished in time for an mnm+tank push so you will have to fight with what you have or yield a contain / 3rd to the Terran. To be honest, your templar won't be out in with storm and energy in time to stop siege tanks from setting up, and the bulk of your units will melt if they engage ... you're best off getting a reaver for defense and waiting for legs/storm before trying to retake map control. If you have good shuttle control you may be able to do a lot of damage, but stimmed marines will kill it if it gets too close to tank range.
Why would the protoss go for a fast 3rd against bio? Bio in TvP is ALWAYS used to hit a timing. By going 2base toss getting as much units as possible, you're eliminating the timing. You expand once you feel safe having adequate high templar and units to defend even double your supply of mnm. (exagerration, but still.) Why would I have obs tech, let alone observer this early on vs a terran who got marine range? I don't see how 6gate/HT is nonsense seeing how you skip robotech entirely. And of course I'm only 'speculating' at the moment since there is no one to play this strategy vs me. -_-;; I'd love to test out my counter strategies though. At the moment I have you and 832-U added on iccup, haven't seen you guys on yet.
Sorry I've been really busy with school and all. I may have some time tomorrow though.
I have not read the thread yet but here are some of my Bionic TvP's. The first 6 games were ladder played at B- or B rank last season. The 6th rep is against Yan; 7th against Ero_Sennin (in the last USA WCG Qualifier: Ro4). Enjoy!
On September 03 2010 12:21 Sterling wrote: I have not read the thread yet but here are some of my Bionic TvP's. The first 6 games were ladder played at B- or B rank last season. The 6th rep is against Yan; 7th against Ero_Sennin (in the last USA WCG Qualifier: Ro4). Enjoy!
thanks for the replays. I really want to try this out and this will definitely help me. Does anyone else have any replays of using this build? or any testimonials?
This is so fun! I only make 3 barracks . It's not that hard to get a decent turret spread and cover your whole base with 5 or so. I killed his 3rd quite easily but forgot to tech to vessels (this build is pretty APM intensive, but so fun!!) so he spammed DTs and arbs .
I will continue using this hybrid. The way I see it you are basically replacing vultures with M+M which have a higher DPS and more cost effective. I was doing it with +1 armor before my push, so it's about 12 tanks and 2 control groups of marines and a couple Fbats .
Forgot to mention that I guess this is not in the true spirit of your build, I was going off a siege expand, making pure tanks from 2 fact . So, I didnt hold them off with a bunker so they never had a chance to know what I was doing. But still, your thread is a good inspiration that has reminded me to just try shit.
Valks to defend carriers? With an EMP 3 or 4 should make fast work...
Carriers are pretty easy with bio due to stimmed marines' ridiculous DPS and untyped damage, which chews through interceptors.
Marines and valks do crap damage to carriers due to carriers' four base armor, however. It's much better to kill the interceptors, and not bother with valkyries.
On September 05 2010 04:37 Severedevil wrote: Carriers are pretty easy with bio due to stimmed marines' ridiculous DPS and untyped damage, which chews through interceptors.
Marines and valks do crap damage to carriers due to carriers' four base armor, however. It's much better to kill the interceptors, and not bother with valkyries.
Ah sorry I just meant in general and not with this build, just to illustrate this idea has got me thinking up small nick nacks.
Best vs classic was a great game, he had a nice timing for his +1 armor which negated dts 1 shoting marines, as well as making zealots and dragons need one extra shot to kill a marine.
I find this build pretty fun, granted im terrible but it is fun to play bio vs toss if their reaver control isn't godly.
This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht?
Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?)
On September 05 2010 19:12 Thesecretaznman wrote: D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss.
This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht?
Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?)
I'm rebuilding my system today - I should be able to watch your replay afterwards.
I don't forgo tech unless I think I can win with a big bio push. Otherwise I'll start my factory after 4rax. Even if you don't scout anything except zealot/goon from the toss, it's a good idea to have tanks to fall back on when your infantry are overextending themselves and you need to wait for reinforcements. It's also good to have a dropship or science vessel in production to cause distraction and to deal with DTs. I generally don't like to push unless I know I have enough scans to last me until a vessel is out, so time your factory accordingly and save scans when possible.
If the toss doesn't take his 3rd, you should still be near even on population since you've been amassing infantry the entire game. There's always a chance the toss has a hidden expansion and unless you're scanning for it this may throw off your timing. As long as you're watching for a 3rd or a tech switch, massing units will favor you. Roll out when you have many tanks and 3-4 control groups of marines so that you can take your 3rd anyway. It's good to exchange armies when the fight is tremendously in your favor - toss needs reaver/HT to keep it even since zealot/goon will melt to mass stim/tank.
I think it's clear bio TvP is not better than mech, obviously. And a range FE build isn't going to suddenly make it viable. That being said, it's an interesting build that could be used in a best of series, but is pretty difficult to pull off. I would never log onto iccup and ladder using this as my standard, so if that's what people are looking for imo just walk away with the 1 fact siege FE.
Imo if you want to bio, you could 1 rax FE and then instead of getting natural gas add more rax first.
Pretty in-depth build I'll try it on a smurf and post results here.
On September 06 2010 07:00 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Imo if you want to bio, you could 1 rax FE and then instead of getting natural gas add more rax first.
mmp's build does this already. Obviously you don't need two geysers to pump marines.
Sorry for not being clear, I mean 1 rax fe, fact then +3 rax, eventually into deep6. I find tanks an important part of a mnm push.
I haven't been able to look at every rep, so can someone show me games vs a DT FE, DT rush, DT drop, 1 gate reaver, and speed shuttle with reaver? These builds in my mind seem to be able to counter the range FE
On September 05 2010 19:12 Thesecretaznman wrote: D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss.
This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht?
Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?)
I'm rebuilding my system today - I should be able to watch your replay afterwards.
I don't forgo tech unless I think I can win with a big bio push. Otherwise I'll start my factory after 4rax. Even if you don't scout anything except zealot/goon from the toss, it's a good idea to have tanks to fall back on when your infantry are overextending themselves and you need to wait for reinforcements. It's also good to have a dropship or science vessel in production to cause distraction and to deal with DTs. I generally don't like to push unless I know I have enough scans to last me until a vessel is out, so time your factory accordingly and save scans when possible.
If the toss doesn't take his 3rd, you should still be near even on population since you've been amassing infantry the entire game. There's always a chance the toss has a hidden expansion and unless you're scanning for it this may throw off your timing. As long as you're watching for a 3rd or a tech switch, massing units will favor you. Roll out when you have many tanks and 3-4 control groups of marines so that you can take your 3rd anyway. It's good to exchange armies when the fight is tremendously in your favor - toss needs reaver/HT to keep it even since zealot/goon will melt to mass stim/tank.
I'll watch later. Probably your macro.
Yeah, I just watched and that was terribad.
You didn't build the CC on spot. You didn't use your scans actively. You jumped to 3rax too soon considering you had 3 on gas (the build tells you to take some off until you start your fac). You shouldn't push so early when your opponent is keeping up on units (your opponent stayed on 3gates before taking a 3rd). The 4rax --> fac timing I recommend in the build order is fine. Your macro missed a lot of production cycles. Your micro and rally points sent many units to a vain death. You retreated when you were winning a battle against goons.
In whole your tech was slow to come out, and if you hadn't lost fights the entire game and continued macroing you could have steamrolled this guy on the first try - nice EMP and HT snipes fwiw, but too little too late. You also need to control your army much better.
Couple questions. Why do you say to build CC at nat? I find hiding the fact I'm even rax expoing best. 2nd, are we walling the main? The few games I did it were vs noobs so I won't bother posting but I walled, and then after rax made 2 marine lifted to the nat and made a semi wall with bunker+rax and then put the CC down.
On September 05 2010 19:12 Thesecretaznman wrote: D Terran vs D+(or higher ) protoss.
This was my first time using it, and I didn't know exactly how to respond to his gates (I think I pushed too early? It felt like I was macroing decently (not sure if I coulda macroed any better) but still got raped because he had a huge pop lead on me the whole time before my push. When I pushed, I basically lost the game there. Do I usually need an ebay that fast? If I detect two base mass play, do I just mass as well then push when he expos if he has no reaver/ht?
Or just push out without the intent to bust his nat and just secure a third while meching? (I assume AFTER massing off multi rax is a good time to tech?)
I'm rebuilding my system today - I should be able to watch your replay afterwards.
I don't forgo tech unless I think I can win with a big bio push. Otherwise I'll start my factory after 4rax. Even if you don't scout anything except zealot/goon from the toss, it's a good idea to have tanks to fall back on when your infantry are overextending themselves and you need to wait for reinforcements. It's also good to have a dropship or science vessel in production to cause distraction and to deal with DTs. I generally don't like to push unless I know I have enough scans to last me until a vessel is out, so time your factory accordingly and save scans when possible.
If the toss doesn't take his 3rd, you should still be near even on population since you've been amassing infantry the entire game. There's always a chance the toss has a hidden expansion and unless you're scanning for it this may throw off your timing. As long as you're watching for a 3rd or a tech switch, massing units will favor you. Roll out when you have many tanks and 3-4 control groups of marines so that you can take your 3rd anyway. It's good to exchange armies when the fight is tremendously in your favor - toss needs reaver/HT to keep it even since zealot/goon will melt to mass stim/tank.
I'll watch later. Probably your macro.
Yeah, I just watched and that was terribad.
You didn't build the CC on spot. You didn't use your scans actively. You jumped to 3rax too soon considering you had 3 on gas (the build tells you to take some off until you start your fac). You shouldn't push so early when your opponent is keeping up on units (your opponent stayed on 3gates before taking a 3rd). The 4rax --> fac timing I recommend in the build order is fine. Your macro missed a lot of production cycles. Your micro and rally points sent many units to a vain death. You retreated when you were winning a battle against goons.
In whole your tech was slow to come out, and if you hadn't lost fights the entire game and continued macroing you could have steamrolled this guy on the first try - nice EMP and HT snipes fwiw, but too little too late. You also need to control your army much better.
Yea, that was my first time, and I have an issue with remember what to do with new BO's.
On September 07 2010 03:02 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Yeah but the thing about scanners is he can make make you waste them by running away or sending them in 1 at a time.
scan comes so ridiculously early that you can spend 1 scan for scouting and you'll have 3 scans by the time dt comes. ebay should be done by then so 1 turret at each base should be good enough. (get ebay bit earlier once you see a 1basing toss or scan sees robo or temp tech.)
Yeah this is 100% correct. DTs shouldn't be a problem until you push, and even then you'll have enough scans to force your way to the natural, set up turrets and bunker, and wait for a vessel (which shouldn't be too far behind if you're macroing well). Toss shouldn't waste his time & money on DTs to try and stop the push - they'll be useful in the lategame defending expansions and harassing places.
On September 07 2010 11:15 Thesecretaznman wrote: Yea, that was my first time, and I have an issue with remember what to do with new BO's.
I'll give it a few dozen more tries :D
No worries. I can't stand to watch my own replays because I know how bad my mechanics are after I push. lol 3k mins.
On September 07 2010 07:48 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Couple questions. Why do you say to build CC at nat? I find hiding the fact I'm even rax expoing best. 2nd, are we walling the main? The few games I did it were vs noobs so I won't bother posting but I walled, and then after rax made 2 marine lifted to the nat and made a semi wall with bunker+rax and then put the CC down.
Trust me when I say that you really really really want a bunker down before goons arrive. A good protoss will harass you with a zealot, and a goon soon after - making it near impossible for marines to take the natural without a medic/stim or a tank's range. A microed goon is just too much for a handful of marines. I don't think the mindgames are worth hurting your econ.
Note: If something weird happens preventing you from expanding (idk, 2gate proxy zealot or whatever else prevents a rax FE), you can float your CC after making some SCVs with it. Meanwhile you've got a 2nd rax up and you're going for stim/medic with a factory. You can take your expansion with just the bio if the toss expands, otherwise a siege expo is safest and you may still be ahead (depending on what weird thing the Protoss did to disrupt you). Feel free to transition to mech.
The deal with the wall is that you will have the minerals to CC earlier and then go fac as followup, or CC a little later and go bio - but because you're not going mech you can just build your 18/18 anytime you want. I start it on 12 so that all but a first-try pylon scout cannot get into my base and cause mischief (you want your marines in front against a zealot, not chasing a stupid probe). More importantly, building a depot on 12 allows you to continuously produce marines and SCVs (you must cut marines if you go mech), so this build gives you fast enough marines to fend off zealot harassment. It's very very bad if you fail to get up your natural and bunkers, because you won't have a tank to save your ass and things can rapidly spiral downward if you make a mistake this early and the Toss is aggressive.
Finally, lifting your rax to your nat serves virtually no good. (1) It stalls your marine production. (2) You don't need to block your natural against anything, bunkers and SCVs are good enough. (3) See (1) again. You really want to have continuous marine production, especially if you need to defend against a drop.
Omg never going bio again... Such a sad game too. Long story short: I do this build vs 2 base arb off 2 gates. Long ass game. I start to use commando groups to pick off expos. Win.
On September 07 2010 15:28 krndandaman wrote: Just played a game at D+. opponent is korean D+ toss.
I opted for no upgrade on infantry, because the guy was teching fast rather than adding a shitload of gates. pushed out a bit before when I though templar tech would finish. he stalled well and broke my push with a flank. I really dunno what to do when the toss splits up his forces with like 10 goons threatening a backstab as well as flank, while he's camping his templar at his ramp waiting for storm to rape your army. if you go in for the kill, he can just stall till storm and your vessel doesn't have 100 energy (if you even have a vessel by then) and even if you do, you'll only hit 1 temp if he splits em up. after he broke my push i had to macro back and i lost all map control. i got my 3rd but the guy expanded everywhere with cannons. i'm spending all my gas on vessel/tanks and not dropship because his army is too large and i need to emp the shit outta his army. eventually he just rolls me with just like 3 storm and i gg emp'd as much as i could...
edit: this is a really hard build to pull off. very mechanically demanding...
I was actually surprised that you weren't able to pull through in this game (the toss played pretty normally, but far from optimally). Your push did pretty well - I feel like I could have won those battles if I were microing them (you got manhandled by zealots and storm for no reason, and you didn't bravely confront dragoons when you had sufficient numbers), but you were a little short on reinforcements anyway.
Here's why you couldn't a-click that battle (keeping in mind that your opponent's macro was really bad also): (1) You left 3 on gas and put a very early factory (35/44) before your 2nd barracks was even finished. I prefer to build 4rax before starting my factory (I can leave 1-2 guys on gas for stim and eventually a factory), so I'm just spending minerals on infantry. (2) You went straight to vessels from there with a second refinery up early. You spent this gas well, but all of the tech decreased your marine count. The tanks were kinda helpful (not that they ever sieged anything...), but mnm are the meat and potatoes of your army.
I think you should have gotten an ebay sooner. Even if you decide against turrets (as your scans indicated was pretty safe), having a +1 upgrade would have helped a lot.
If you were scanning his tech actively (I think you stopped after a while), you would have seen that his templar weren't going to be out in time to stop you from pushing into his natural and bunkering. When you scout a reaver-less response in the future, try to stay low tech - tanks aren't as important as infantry in this situation. Vultures and vessels would be nice - but until reavers come out or you're trying to advance a contain, tanks aren't so important.
Your opponent's macro was bad. I recommend just going through the motions of 4rax->fac until we come up with something better. One big push is better than an early weak push.
And you didn't build any dropships.
tldr: too much gas, not enough marines. Poor micro, decent macro.
As I haven't seen it mentioned yet, if you want to see a replay of a pro gamer going U-238 expand against protoss and continuing with bio throughout the game (although in the end it was mostly mech), check out the fOrGG vs Stats 2.rep that can be found in Ver's how to improve guide that i have linked here (click other sources and select the last hyperlink in the guide to download the reppack).
I thouroughly enjoyed seeing forgg utilise vultures to to thin the HT numbers before various engagements and target fire reavers with tanks to improve the lifespan of his bio ball and particularly because + Show Spoiler +
fOrGG wins
.
I would love to see someone make this work in a televised game + Show Spoiler +
On September 26 2010 17:37 ssj_ds wrote: As I haven't seen it mentioned yet, if you want to see a replay of a pro gamer going U-238 expand against protoss and continuing with bio throughout the game (although in the end it was mostly mech), check out the fOrGG vs Stats 2.rep that can be found in Ver's how to improve guide that i have linked here (click other sources and select the last hyperlink in the guide to download the reppack).
I thouroughly enjoyed seeing forgg utilise vultures to to thin the HT numbers before various engagements and target fire reavers with tanks to improve the lifespan of his bio ball and particularly because + Show Spoiler +
fOrGG wins
.
I would love to see someone make this work in a televised game + Show Spoiler +
Flash Please
.
Well I was actually thinking of Wraith control group to snipe HTs when they pops out so + Show Spoiler +
Warning: The last post in this thread is over two months old. If you bump this, you better have a good reason.
It's my goddamn thread, I'll bump if I wanna.
So unfortunately I'm kind of into this game they call Wings of Liberty (I play Zerg now), but I just had a good idea having revisited Broodwar briefly. Also, reading the other noobie strat TvP threads gives me incentive to help my Terran brothers. More theorycrafting inbound:
So you get your barracks fast expand, you add a second barracks and get stim. This should cause any sane Protoss to shit his pants, since he's primarily worried about an imminent push. But that's not your plan...
Get a factory also when you make your 2nd rax and start tank tech. This is what you would want to regardless if you didn't want to roll out with just mnm (reavers force you to go tank or air superiority). But forget the ebay: no infantry upgrades, no turrets (you have stim and scans just in case). Get armories and a starport! Once you have a sizable infantry force with siege tank support, you feint an attack, but stop and fall back to defending your 3rd.
As has already been demonstrated, this infantry build is quite powerful very early in TvP but falters against higher tech later on (and multitasking faults can cost you heavily). So you use a modest force (as small as necessary) to simply take your 3rd and bunker up while getting dual mech upgrades and dropping lots of factories as your 3rd comes online.
Note that where you would have spent money on 4-5 rax and 2 advanced tech structures plus infantry upgrades, instead you are putting your gas into mech upgrades, maybe one wraith and/or vessel for intel reasons, and the rest is factories. The minerals from the rax/infantry go into a fast CC and factories. Because you intend on playing defensively, you don't need an army big enough to kill your opponent.
This is possibly the fastest and safest way I can imagine getting to your 3rd base without threatening vulture harassment (as standard TvP relies so heavily on). Traditional double armory builds wait for a 2-1 timing, but falter taking the 3rd without adding sufficient factories and delaying (spider mines help if you need to stop a bust) to match Protoss aggression. On maps that don't outright give you a free 3rd, throwing bio in early seems to give you just what you need to make it to that 3rd without as serious concern for unit massing by the Protoss - the Protoss needs tech units to effectively combat heavy mnm with light tank support. And going bio simultaneously puts the Protoss on edge, unaware of your intention (if you deny early scouting of your armories).
And it makes sense. Stimpack totally shuts down Protoss's early-midgame unit composition. Let them fast tech to reavers or high templar... that's a distraction from their economy (probes, expansion, and better uses of their gas), and arrives too late to halt bunkers at your 3rd. Reavers and templar are only dangerous if you leave your 3-base bunker/tank fortress, but you won't be leaving until you have a 2-2 mech army.
I think this could be a very very very potent strategy (who doesn't like camping 3base mech?) if adopted by an active BW player (sorry, I'm out of this game now), and especially could help give an edge to novice players that want to play a safe defensive macro style without Flash-like game sense (you have lots of scans the whole game).
Is the idea of the two-rax-only play to make sure you get your third before Protoss gets his? Since if he actually takes a third he won't have the tech/unit count to deal with Stim M&M?
On December 23 2010 03:45 Severedevil wrote: Is the idea of the two-rax-only play to make sure you get your third before Protoss gets his? Since if he actually takes a third he won't have the tech/unit count to deal with Stim M&M?
I was usually going 4rax into factory and pushing out with insane amounts of force, but usually by the time you get across the map the toss has gotten a plan of action together and you're not going to win the game with bio alone unless you catch the Protoss off guard doing something greedy. So the idea is to make fewer infantry and place the money into tech and a CC instead, and faster tanks.
I think there is a normal timing window at which the Protoss can get his 3rd without dying to a bio push. Regardless of how much danger the Protoss is or is not in, I think this might be an all-around smoother and safer way for the Terran to get to his third while getting double armory upgrades. Goon/zealot is a much larger threat to a pure tank army trying to secure a 3rd, so Terran either relies on spider mines and clever timing to get the CC with brute force, or (against an alert Protoss) you need to offer a real threat to keep your 3rd from being harassed: speed vultures.
From games played (with you and others), Protoss can take his 3rd at a normal time and still survive a bio push, but most of the time it involves a heavy tech investment or cutting probes to add gateways -- the harder the transition the more greedily Protoss expanded. I'm not certain which of the numerous responses I've encountered is most effective, but a lot of them are overreactionary -- very gas intensive and not so great against mech.
So I don't think Terran is any better poised to kill a safe-expanding Protoss, but if the Terran can cut off intel then the Protoss knows his actions are being watched by scans, so I think there is no option for Protoss but to play safely or abusively (possibly taking a fast 4th to elicit a premature response from the Terran or hoping to stall the push until the 4th has kicked in).
My hope is that the investment in academy tech early on instead of total factory production is made up for by the improved economy and efficiency, faster upgrades, early and persistent intelligence (fast scanners), and strategic versatility of a bionic army (attack, raid, bunker).
He basically keeps his temps in shuttles hovering over his goons. When Terran advances, he sends his army to absorb enemy fire while simultaneously dropping temps from a moving shuttle. As the temps drop 1 by 1, he immediately storms anything bunched together. Pretty gosu stuff in that game.
He basically keeps his temps in shuttles hovering over his goons. When Terran advances, he sends his army to absorb enemy fire while simultaneously dropping temps from a moving shuttle. As the temps drop 1 by 1, he immediately storms anything bunched together. Pretty gosu stuff in that game.
Ummm... everybody knows that trick so is there a particular reason why you are mentioning it?
Wraith ground dps is not so great (you won't get a single kill before losing wraiths to goons). I'd rather get a single wraith against a shuttle and at least get a kill if I'm going to lose my wraith. But there is still nothing you can do if the shuttle stays close to goons.
Ground mech units are just better against mid-tech toss units. Tanks outrange everything, vultures are cheap and mobile enough to sacrifice for good kills, and goliaths have the best anti-air range. And they're all beefy enough to take a hit or two before dying.
BruceLee, actually the build is designed to be able to attack against greedy or abusive Protoss strategies by conventional TvP standards, with a timing window early enough to make teching to HT an afterthought. HT are expensive and not what you want to be building early in the game. A better solution is to get reavers and add gateways. If you don't add gateways then you will get overwhelmed - since the Terran reinforces bio faster.
If that window does not present itself, then it is not wise to attack at all.
On December 23 2010 10:04 Mortality wrote: Ummm... everybody knows that trick so is there a particular reason why you are mentioning it?
Yes, the OP's ideas towards using m/m builds are founded upon sniping temps to make his/her army much less vulnerable to storms.
mmp's comment pretty much sums it up, but I'll just add that having experimented a little over the years with bionic vs Protoss, I must say that at a certain point you have to drop it unless you have either successfully pressed him to prevent him from being able to reach a critical mass, or are vastly better than your opponent and toying with him. It's hard enough in the midgame when he has 1-2 stormers and/or a reaver, but in the late game you are putting yourself into a position where you have to do a better job than him controlling more units.
My impression from this thread is that the OP was stressing the importance of the timing attack which is vital for successful bionic TvP anyway. The timing from this attack is different than the timing of "Deep Six," although I've never really used either. My own experiments with bionic were from before these builds were invented so...
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It's my goddamn thread, I'll bump if I wanna. glhf
LMAO! Anyways this build did work for me a few times against my clan members, but only once in iCCup. I always sucked at TvZ Micro, so I guess that's one of the reasons why. =(
On December 24 2010 06:56 No0n wrote: I think this is viable, heres what Day[9] has to say about it and how to deal with reavers : http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3535035/
I remember watching that Daily live. Sean's comments are 100% spot on, particularly noting that Reavers are better than HT against bio early game.
Hmm.. I think I may be tempted to give this another try over the holiday break. No classes until January.
Edit: Uggh iccup is so brutal. I got one decent try with the 2x armory build although my macro was abysmal. At the very least the marmed tank combo appears to be extremely hard to beat on defense - maybe I should have expanded sooner. I definitely didn't keep up on factories, production or depots. He also got an observer in early and saw everything so I doubt there is any good way to hide the build. Please critique.
On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote: A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver.
finely a good bio TvP or at least you put alot of work into it. if you use this build, you must be extremely cautious of reaver drops, with their output of 100/125 damage it will destroy you ball in a second.
This seems like a somewhat relevant game though Ssak isn't opting for the timing window with this play but rather using the upgraded range + one medic -> bunker once more goons started to pressure to help secure a fast expand but transitions into standard mech play. The bunker helped to push off early goon aggression well, which looks pretty vital considering no mech units are out at this point. The marines also help make a bit of difference when pushing too as Ssak is able to snipe off a shuttle.
This probably doesn't correlate too well into your build but I thought it was a rather interesting build that relied on U-238 as well.
I thought this topic would have been bumped to recommend Hiya Vs Violet. I think he went up to about 8rax 2fac vs carriers and a heavy DT/carrier force. I think it would have been even more sweet to see ghosts instead of tanks being used to lockdown carriers but still an awesome game. It seemed like Hiya was trying to end it early himself and almost did. As a Protoss it seems to be extremely hard to defend your nat against a well timed biomech push.
Things to note though: Violet used his high templars very poorly and skipped reavers completely. Hiya is certainly not a vastly superior player though so it shows maybe you can keep up mid-late game with good control. If he had vultures zipping through and sniping the HTs it would have worked even better considering Violets lack of ground force except DTs. Also no Cannons i assme because he wanted all minerals for interceptors. Anyway certainly an interesting idea, particularly on this map... See Jaehoon vs Fantasy on Bloody Ridge to see that even a relatively poor carrier switch and usage defeated (most would say) a superior player who went Goliaths.
While I love this build, the reason what Hiya did worked was not because bio became suddenly more viable at high level. He was doing the classic Deep Six Build, which is a counter to a fast 3rd, which was what Violet was doing. The additional bonus is that m&m are highly effective against carriers because they eat interceptors. Violets failure to make more HT/goons instead of DTs and interceptors made it look more viable than it had to be imo. Same for skimping cannons.
However we're not all progamers and thus we can play bio and love it =)
Folks, I know this thread is more than 7 years old, please don't kill me.
I was watching the Nal_Ra vs UpMagic game again (the one linked in the OP) and wondering if we had any more recent games showcasing this strategy or a variation of it.
In particular, every time I remember that game, I think about ghosts with lockdown. Imagine if it would be possible to integrate lots of ghosts in the army to lockdown shuttles/reavers/arbiters/carriers. Yes, ghosts are ultra fragile, but they have great range too, especially with the range upgrade. Also, one could use some defense matrix on key ghosts during/before battle (similar to how some people use dmatrix on firebats vs zerg).
From.what I could see throughout the years, m&m vs protoss is incredibly rare to see, especially when the marine range is upgraded before tank. In all those years, I've never seen ONE game with this strategy that progresses into ghost play and multiple vessels, but maybe there is something that was streamed?
Is anyone willing to try some ghosts or have any recent videos of a strategy similar to this to share?
I was never a good SC player (played a few games against some friends and low level ICCUP a few years ago) but I've always followed pretty much all official tournaments and absolutely loved theorycrafting about weird builds like this. I'm absolutely a fan of ghosts and think they are incredibly underused. Every time I see a Terran progame I wait for the moment when ghosts are made, but it never comes Watching a few games with m&m AND ghosts vs Protoss would be incredible.
On May 03 2018 09:42 julealgon wrote: Folks, I know this thread is more than 7 years old, please don't kill me.
I was watching the Nal_Ra vs UpMagic game again (the one linked in the OP) and wondering if we had any more recent games showcasing this strategy or a variation of it.
In particular, every time I remember that game, I think about ghosts with lockdown. Imagine if it would be possible to integrate lots of ghosts in the army to lockdown shuttles/reavers/arbiters/carriers. Yes, ghosts are ultra fragile, but they have great range too, especially with the range upgrade. Also, one could use some defense matrix on key ghosts during/before battle (similar to how some people use dmatrix on firebats vs zerg).
From.what I could see throughout the years, m&m vs protoss is incredibly rare to see, especially when the marine range is upgraded before tank. In all those years, I've never seen ONE game with this strategy that progresses into ghost play and multiple vessels, but maybe there is something that was streamed?
Is anyone willing to try some ghosts or have any recent videos of a strategy similar to this to share?
I was never a good SC player (played a few games against some friends and low level ICCUP a few years ago) but I've always followed pretty much all official tournaments and absolutely loved theorycrafting about weird builds like this. I'm absolutely a fan of ghosts and think they are incredibly underused. Every time I see a Terran progame I wait for the moment when ghosts are made, but it never comes Watching a few games with m&m AND ghosts vs Protoss would be incredible.
There is a Boxer game where he uses Ghosts to lockdown Arbiters before they can enter the main. I don't remember much else about the game unfortunately so if someone remembers this game, that would be great.
The biggest issue with M&M and Ghost play is that the two are practically anachronistic in terms of gameflow. M&M, as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, have a very niche and limited efficacy in the TvP match-up. Once they are revealed, they become less and less effective over time against Protoss.
Ghosts come into the game extremely late, and the amount of time and gas that it would take to build Ghosts, have them raise enough energy to cast Lockdown even once, and research Lockdown make them an insane investment. Such a heavy gas investment does not mix well with the transition to Mech + the need for Science Vessels (with their own research costs included).
In other words, there are no viable ways that I know of that keep M&M relevant and alive long enough to allow them to mix in with Ghosts with any efficacy. Ghosts are too much of an investment and detract from a meching Terran. Thus, combat Ghosts seem to have no place in TvP at all, and their use as defensive or harassment (Nuke) units have very few pro examples.
If you enjoy Ghost usage in general, I recommend this game:
The most recent offline game I remember, where a Terran tried ghosts to counter carriers, was Mong vs Tyson in SSL9 from 4 years ago:
But it wasn't successful at all. Carriers have a higher attack range than lockdown, so ghosts are not really a counter to carriers. They also get one shotted by upgraded DTs so you don't even get a notification. In conclusion by incorporating ghosts in your army you have a lot more to do as Terran for the slight hope that you might get a lockdown off if the Protoss doesn't pay attention to his army.
I use m&m vs toss all the time with success on iccup. the key is not dying to goon pressure early, and making the toss take as long as possible to mask and scout what you are doing. OP's build is pretty risky, but you can also try opening up a 1-fac CC with siege which is very safe, then throwing down 3-6 rax and going for a large 2base m&m and siege tank bust. Or if your opponent is noob, and played some unagressive PvT strategy like 1 gate nexus, or 1 gate core nexus, you can sometimes win by staying at 1 base and getting 3rax, stim u238 and academy. That build is good for timing vs toss who can get storm to counter a 2base-deep-6 timing, but can't get it in time to counter 1 base. This build is susceptible for losing to early reavers from toss plus 2gate goon though which just tear it apart. They key for terran is to scout toss number 1, and feint non-aggression before going hyper-aggression and make toss think you are doing opposite strategy of m&m rush before busting his natural and him being caught by surprise. once arbiter play is introduced, ghost play is a good counter with lockdown but you don't want to be rushing to lockdown before the toss has anything but goons and high templar since it just isn't cost effective.
On May 05 2018 13:12 Kau wrote: I thought the ghost lockdowning the arbiter game you were thinking about was free vs hiya on triathlon:
17:38 was the lockdown
There were multiple! I linked this one above as this is by far the most famous example for sure.
What a friggin game. Never been a big Hiya fan but I have to give him props for creating possibly one of the most iconic "WTF" games in BW's latter history. Just when you thought that wacky stuff was no longer viable or only possible in one-sided stomps, Hiya showed us that being crazy can still work. Major props.
On May 05 2018 13:12 Kau wrote: I thought the ghost lockdowning the arbiter game you were thinking about was free vs hiya on triathlon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfnA7Q3AjUg 17:38 was the lockdown
Lol, I've seen that game long time ago and it's still one of the most impressive TvP games ever. But what I missed from last time is that free mind controls those neutral arbiters and they come with full energy. :D
EPT
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/37847.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/37926.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/39725.jpg)
Watching a few games with m&m AND ghosts vs Protoss would be incredible.
