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Disclaimer & Preface:+ Show Spoiler +This is an unexplored timing window for bionic TvP. Previous discussions have been limited to 1base surprise bionic attacks and the factory FE-based "Deep Six" all-in. The purpose of this thread is the regeneration of an old debate in the context of the recently popularized rax FE opening, allowing for an earlier bionic push than Deep 6 alongside transition opportunities.
I am not a pro. The games are played at the low ranks of ICCup Season 13. That said, I reversed my TvP winrate from around 33% with traditional 3base mech + vulture-harass to over 66% with this new bio timing push and map control. My losses show area for improvement, places to seal the cracks or improve upon the offered strategy. Never did a loss give me the overwhelming impression that I was playing a doomed or cheesy strategy, only frustration of my own slip-ups in micro or macro or decision-making against a strong opponent - I think this build has a lot of potential. It is my hope that higher level Terran players with stronger mechanics and commitment than mine will further explore this strategy and offer informed feedback in this thread.
Most of all, I want to show that with this opening we can think about bio TvP as a safe and standard style that is potent even when scouted.
This is a dynamic OP, I make recommendations based on what I've seen. Once I see more, my recommendations may change. The build order is also under adaptation based on what appears to be the safest or strongest options as more information becomes available.
Please contribute your time if you're C rank or higher and try exploring a particular option. For example. play 5 games where you add 4facs after the first 2rax and push when the toss takes his 3rd, reinforcing with vultures. Or find out for yourself if EMP is sufficient in dealing with HT.
Relevant Pro VODs:
+ Show Spoiler +
Build order:
9 supply
11 rax
12 supply (wall off)
18 CC (on spot)
20 refinery / bunker
@100% refinery -> 3 on gas until 250 collected, then leave 1
22 academy
@100% academy -> U-238, 2x comsats, stimpack when convenient
22 depot
30 ebay, 2nd rax, 2 SCVs on gas
~35 @100% comsats --> adjust
... add to 4 barracks and start factory when gas is available.
@1% factory --> 3 SCVs on gas
@1% starport --> 2nd refinery
From here things are up for experimenting. You can add a 5th barracks, an extra factory for tanks, 1 or 2 starports building dropships and/or vessels. After you've taken your 3rd you will have a strong income to further diverge if you wish.
You could alternatively add factories after the 2rax and have a more mech-heavy push with bio support - reinforced by mech.
Clarifications:
The build is fundamentally identical to a rax FE for mech, except you do not build your refinery until your expansion is secured and you rely on marine range (U-238) to match dragoon range inside a bunker, obviating the need for siege tanks and factory tech. You will resume factory units later, but the early stimpack and investment in barracks allows you to push at more flexible timings.
Intel:+ Show Spoiler +I like to build a depot on 12 to hide the lack of refinery and discourage zealot harassment. It also allows continuous marine & SCV production, unlike a traditional rax FE that
Cheese:+ Show Spoiler +Because you will have early comsats and an ebay, the build is very safe against goon all-in, DTs, elevator, and bulldog (but not reaver bulldog). The early comsats allow you to know very early exactly what the Protoss is doing and adjust accordingly. You can start stimpack and medics as soon as you think a fight is imminent. A fast reaver is the only known counter to this build.
Number of Bunkers:+ Show Spoiler +If you scout a goon all-in then you will want a 3rd bunker to cover your bets (marines can jump into a fresh bunker if one falls). Some players are confident with a single bunker, I think this is fine against 1gate - but I do recommend a 2nd bunker if you scout 2gate or suspect aggression. For standard play, 1 bunker should be fine.
HT >> MnM:+ Show Spoiler +The build gets Science Vessels to EMP templar. A mech transition in the lategame should also utilize vultures to snipe zealots and HT.
Early Zealot aggression:+ Show Spoiler +This build is actually safer than a standard rax FE, since it builds marines uninterrupted (depot on 12) and you bunker on 20.
Specific Timings & Adjustments:
The key thing to note is that this isn't a Deep 6 one-timing push: the rax FE and lack of factory mean you will be ready to strike much sooner with bio when the opportunity first presents itself (and tanks can follow), but you will roll out with fewer tanks than either a Deep 6 or rax FE --> 2fac --> bio. Because you have early comsats you can wait for the Protoss to misstep and push when it is most advantageous to you. The following are some notable adjustments that I'm aware of:
1gate obs FE:+ Show Spoiler +I'm of the opinion that you can push early if you spot safe economic play from the Protoss. Your attack should arrive before a reaver can save the natural and there will not be enough goons to defeat the mnm unless the Protoss scouts the push and adds gateways early.
1gate FE robo:+ Show Spoiler +This is a safe play by the Protoss, but a reaver won't be out fast enough to pose an economic threat.
Triple nexus:+ Show Spoiler +The Protoss needs to have at least 2gates pumping goons or cannons + reaver to keep up with your production for the first 3 barracks. An early push can defeat this kind of greedy play, and you will spot it easily with comsats and you can push as early as you have stimpack and medics.
Fast DT:+ Show Spoiler +If you're fortunate enough to scan the tech you can have turrets up early. Also keep in mind that you have two early scans. You will have enough mnm and stimpack to deal with DTs suffering minimal damage.
I generally recommend adding a 2nd bunker if you don't spot a nexus at the Protoss natural, so if you see a ripple entering your base a quick scan will kill or severely damage them. Queue some medics and make sure stimpack is started, place turrets, unload most of your marines and stim and scan.
Fast Reaver:+ Show Spoiler +At the moment a 1gate reaver --> nexus is understood to be a smart counter to this opening, although the Protoss cannot know if you will have mech or bio until marine range finishes or an early scan sweep is seen (you could delay U-238 just to play mind games). The main is actually quite safe, because stimpack and turrets are sufficient to fight the reaver (don't cluster your marines!). A reaver doesn't fight up a ramp effectively, but it can outrange your bunkers and destroy them quickly. I'm looking for a solution that doesn't involve an early factory.
Carrier rush:+ Show Spoiler +You will have scans early enough to spot this tech and upgraded infantry are strong against interceptors. The push should be able to exploit the lack of units, and you can have early siege mode to break through cannons. Deny expansions and bunker/turret your way into the natural.
Contrast from Deep Six
The motivation behind a deep six push is not just an all-in, but fundamentally your army composition (in time/money spent) is tanks with light infantry support at an early attack timing. This build differs from Deep Six in that it starts with infantry before transitioning to tanks -- so you will have more time/money spent into infantry making your army more mobile and improved DPS, at the cost of vulnerability to area-of-effect attacks and difficulty busting down static defenses. This build also differs from Deep Six in that the attack timings are more flexible than a Deep Six -- you can play far more reactively, and you have the early scanners to make an informed decision.
Future Work
Based on feedback from C/C+ players, if the build is scouted (you scan reaver/templar very early) or the protoss incidentally opts for 2-base aggression instead of a fast 3rd, then you can still easily push to your 3rd and bunker up. Infantry are very good defensive units since medics excel in small fights, and bunkers at your 3rd (above a ramp ideally) and choke can halt a lot of aggression. A transition to mech is advisable, since you will have the upper hand in economy and on intelligence. This transition should start as early as possible, and once you're certain you don't want to push. Vulture mnm ought to be particularly strong, since vultures punish a protoss that relies too heavily on templar and zealots. Someone in the thread suggested wraiths... they are also good against everything not dragoon (which mnm destroy), but they might be a little expensive and delicate when vultures can get the job done well also. It may also be possible to play this opening into a defensive midgame.
Here's my replay pack played up to C- level (forgive my sloppy macro TT). I've been playing some off-rank games with C and higher players and will post replays when I have some consistent results to show, however my mechanics aren't so great so it would be great if some high level Terrans played around with it.
Enjoy and let me know how it works (or doesn't) for you!
Obligatory YouTube video:
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think bio TvP is horrible but you put a lot of thought and work into this, so definately gonna try it out in all my C level (probably worse now cause I havent played for weeks) glory 
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Three rax makes me have reverse dejavu to starcraft 2.
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Bio... doesn't work very well... I would tell you why, but I think we can all see Best vs Mind for ourselves. :\
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If a protoss goes 1 gate obs and they see the academy with range researching, they should expect marine medic, in which they shouldn't be continuously building dragoons, but since they have the robo, they can build a reaver and start pumping some zealots. Their reaver doesn't have to do damage at all, all it has to do is delay and defend against your push as protoss takes a 3rd and starts to add more gateways and tech to templar. When you do a bio build like this, protoss does not have to be the aggressor, they can sit back and force you to do the damage while they tech and expand, because in the lategame terran's army will be horribly weak to protoss's templar
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I've heard about the U-238 build from various people for years now, but I've never seen an actual game of the build. I've been very curious about it for a while now, even if I've always been extremely skeptical about it. I would love it if you put up some replays for us to see. I really want to see a bunch of games of the build being used.
edit: oh shit, I missed your replay pack link nvm my badddd
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Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver?
He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank.
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On August 29 2010 09:59 SubtleArt wrote:I think bio TvP is horrible but you put a lot of thought and work into this, so definately gonna try it out in all my C level (probably worse now cause I havent played for weeks) glory
Please do. You'll probably lose a few games just getting your bearings, but let me know how the midgame works out with good macro. And if your push fails, remember that you have an easy 3rd and siege tanks + infantry can hold territory well.
On August 29 2010 11:20 Muirhead wrote:
Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver?
He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank.
That may be a good strategy since it gets an expo up early without exposing itself to much risk. That said, the reaver will be too late to do meaningful harassment. I'm not sure whether or not a 3rax push can arrive quickly enough to start bunkering & turreting, or it may be better to push off of 4rax and 1fac. Or a 2rax fast attack might work also, who knows - 1gate is pretty weak against bio. You can cut probes and add gateways to try to catch up, but I think 4rax of infantry will have you outnumbered unless you commit to a 2nd gateway sooner (you'll ultimately need more than 2gates worth of units coming from a 1gate opening, so I'd hesitate to take a fast 3rd). You could probably do without the reaver so early (obs first?) if you get that 2nd gate early, but it does at least force the Terran to think about bringing tanks earlier than he'd like (bunkers may be just as good though if you don't have a large goon army). I don't want to speculate too much, we should just play and find out.
Oh, and as clarification, when I say 3rax I mean you attack approximately when your 3rax are finished and you have medics + stimpack. You add more barracks after that since you'll have lots of minerals from the FE and you've been pumping SCVs the entire time so it's really more of a 4-5rax + fac push once everything is set up, but you can start the attack with just 3rax.
On August 29 2010 10:36 dhe95 wrote:
When you do a bio build like this, protoss does not have to be the aggressor, they can sit back and force you to do the damage while they tech and expand, because in the lategame terran's army will be horribly weak to protoss's templar
The timing is significantly earlier than a Deep 6, but no less potent. Protoss will not have a 3rd up (unpunished), so you need to carefully spell out your strategy beyond just "sit back and tech/expand." As I mentioned in the OP, rushing to HT too early is a strain on an already (relatively) weak economy, so you may get off 1 or two storms and have zero units left to defend if you're overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Reavers are more versatile because they do not have a 75 energy cooldown and you can get off a lot of shots with good shuttle control. I think it is sufficient to set up a contain and outexpand the Protoss if their defense are truly impenetrable - this would be a tremendous turnabout from the normal matchup dynamics.
In a nutshell, think of storms as stacked lurkers with a minute-long cooldown on their spines. They may get one good hit, but they're not real fighting units.
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On August 29 2010 11:58 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 11:20 Muirhead wrote:
Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver?
He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank. That may be a good strategy since it gets an expo up early without exposing itself to much risk. That said, the reaver will be too late to do meaningful harassment. I'm not sure whether or not a 3rax push can arrive quickly enough to start bunkering & turreting, or it may be better to push off of 4rax and 1fac. Or a 2rax fast attack might work also, who knows - 1gate is pretty weak against bio. You can cut probes and add gateways to try to catch up, but I think 4rax of infantry will have you outnumbered unless you commit to a 2nd gateway sooner (you'll ultimately need more than 2gates worth of units coming from a 1gate opening, so I'd hesitate to take a fast 3rd). You could probably do without the reaver so early (obs first?) if you get that 2nd gate early, but it does at least force the Terran to think about bringing tanks earlier than he'd like (bunkers may be just as good though if you don't have a large goon army). I don't want to speculate too much, we should just play and find out. Oh, and as clarification, when I say 3rax I mean you attack approximately when your 3rax are finished and you have medics + stimpack. You add more barracks after that since you'll have lots of minerals from the FE and you've been pumping SCVs the entire time so it's really more of a 4-5rax + fac push once everything is set up, but you can start the attack with just 3rax.
Downloading broodwar on my new laptop now :D
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On August 29 2010 10:19 kineSiS- wrote:
Bio... doesn't work very well... I would tell you why, but I think we can all see Best vs Mind for ourselves. :\
Please don't link a factory first... "Deep 4" build that should have won anyway if Mind actually used his reinforcements, and then dismiss this build.
My build pushes significantly sooner with more infantry and earlier upgrades. Imagine if Mind had held his natural without the tank, but instead of waiting a couple of minutes for his barracks to finish building, he'd already have pushed and likely won since Best took a greedy 3rd (a timing I mention in the OP).
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how do you not lose to even half-decently controled reavers
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do you mind playing this build against me? i have a few ideas on how to kill it and improve it
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On August 29 2010 12:41 Muirhead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 11:58 mmp wrote:On August 29 2010 11:20 Muirhead wrote:
Hm... how does this do vs 1 gate expand--->robo--->reaver?
He can cut probes to get more dragoons out once he notices that your bunker can hit dragoons, which will be wailing at it until U-238 finishes because you have no tank. That may be a good strategy since it gets an expo up early without exposing itself to much risk. That said, the reaver will be too late to do meaningful harassment. I'm not sure whether or not a 3rax push can arrive quickly enough to start bunkering & turreting, or it may be better to push off of 4rax and 1fac. Or a 2rax fast attack might work also, who knows - 1gate is pretty weak against bio. You can cut probes and add gateways to try to catch up, but I think 4rax of infantry will have you outnumbered unless you commit to a 2nd gateway sooner (you'll ultimately need more than 2gates worth of units coming from a 1gate opening, so I'd hesitate to take a fast 3rd). You could probably do without the reaver so early (obs first?) if you get that 2nd gate early, but it does at least force the Terran to think about bringing tanks earlier than he'd like (bunkers may be just as good though if you don't have a large goon army). I don't want to speculate too much, we should just play and find out. Oh, and as clarification, when I say 3rax I mean you attack approximately when your 3rax are finished and you have medics + stimpack. You add more barracks after that since you'll have lots of minerals from the FE and you've been pumping SCVs the entire time so it's really more of a 4-5rax + fac push once everything is set up, but you can start the attack with just 3rax. Downloading broodwar on my new laptop now :D
Results show that adjusting to 3gate at the moment you see scan sweep (no Terran has an academy that early, unless...), cutting probes, and microing like a gosu can halt a 2rax push (but not without the micro and early adjustment).
On August 29 2010 13:51 nath wrote:
how do you not lose to even half-decently controled reavers
I build a wraith and I try to push just before the reaver finishes with turrets or when I have enough marines that I can afford losses. Tanks and turrets help to manage territory in the late game.
On August 29 2010 13:58 foppa wrote:do you mind playing this build against me? i have a few ideas on how to kill it and improve it
pm sent
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Oooh, this build is getting off the ground?
I need to play with or against it...
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On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote:
A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver.
These are very strong generalizations and assumptions. I assume you have replays to back up your conjecture?
My gameplay may be amateur, but if you watch the games I posted you'll see there's tons of room for improvement in the mid and lategame - I don't always choose the best timing, but the game isn't necessarily lost on the first push. The midgame push is strong enough that Protoss has to play defensively, and it's early enough that the Terran can keep up on expansions.
On August 29 2010 23:54 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm somewhat theorycrafting here, but you'd be able to use EMP's irrads...
MNM vs semi-larg protosses armies can work, but having the same eco is key, and forcing big fights is probably key.
Yeah, this is what has been working for me so far. You have lots of gas since you'll reach 3 bases just pumping infantry with a little tank support. I like to add a second fac for extra tanks or a second port for dropships alongside vessels, but you'll want to get an early science facility anyway so that you can start your 2/2 upgrades. EMPs are very useful, and you'll have quite a bit of gas coming from 3 bases (1 refinery fuels 2tanks, 2 dropships, or ~1.5 vessels).
As for shuttles and reavers in the lategame, it's probably pushing the multitask bar even higher but ghosts are 100% viable. Hmm... I wonder if...
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On August 29 2010 22:59 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote:
A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver. These are very strong generalizations and assumptions. I assume you have replays to back up your conjecture? My gameplay may be amateur, but if you watch the games I posted you'll see there's tons of room for improvement in the mid and lategame - I don't always choose the best timing, but the game isn't necessarily lost on the first push. The midgame push is strong enough that Protoss has to play defensively, and it's early enough that the Terran can keep up on expansions.
My 1v1 in general is so rusty/bad that I would not be able to test this build in such a way that it'd be useful to you, but I know that if your mechanics are good and you stay roughly even with expansions, you'll be able to combat large goon zeal armies with either mnm tank or sk terran. As the armies get larger, the protoss might stick with reavers (which are easier to fight if you can dodge scarabs) or use HTs.
I'm somewhat theorycrafting here, but you'd be able to use EMP's irrads to deal with HT's unless the fights are so "even" that he's just using HT's in shuttles. If that's the case, and you make a mistake, you could be in trouble. Generally, if you can stay even with bases and use EMP's to punch holes in his armies while forcing fights in big open centers, there should be few problems. (This sorta thing happens in 2v2 TZvs PZ when TZ team goes bio. There are often situations when both zergs are either dead, or play a bit of a smaller role.)
MNM vs semi-larg protosses armies can work, but having the same eco is key, and forcing big fights is probably key.
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On August 30 2010 00:33 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 22:59 mmp wrote:On August 29 2010 16:12 krndandaman wrote:
A decent protoss should be able to beat this easily...
the moment he sees the range upgrade he should recognize that you're investing in marines and he would go straight to storm tech or reaver tech. Even if you weren't going mnm, it's a big investment that early on and going reaver/storm wouldn't really be bad even if you went full mech since you're essentially wasting the investment on range.
And anyone who knows how to micro at least half good should rape you with storm or reaver. These are very strong generalizations and assumptions. I assume you have replays to back up your conjecture? My gameplay may be amateur, but if you watch the games I posted you'll see there's tons of room for improvement in the mid and lategame - I don't always choose the best timing, but the game isn't necessarily lost on the first push. The midgame push is strong enough that Protoss has to play defensively, and it's early enough that the Terran can keep up on expansions. On August 29 2010 23:54 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm somewhat theorycrafting here, but you'd be able to use EMP's irrads...
MNM vs semi-larg protosses armies can work, but having the same eco is key, and forcing big fights is probably key. Yeah, this is what has been working for me so far. You have lots of gas since you'll reach 3 bases just pumping infantry with a little tank support. I like to add a second fac for extra tanks or a second port for dropships alongside vessels, but you'll want to get an early science facility anyway so that you can start your 2/2 upgraudes. EMPs are very useful, and you'll have quite a bit of gas coming from 3 bases (1 refinery fuels 2tanks, 2 dropships, or ~1.5 vessels). As for shuttles and reavers in the lategame, it's probably pushing the multitask bar even higher but ghosts are 100% viable. Hmm... I wonder if... What am i assuming? Ive played against a few midgame mnm and its usually pretty easy to hold if i scout it. I havent faced thos build ever, but i welcome you or someone to try this at c level or above.
Can you be specific? What builds were used how did you counter them?
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Looks really interesting... all we need is someone like Stylish or Lastshadow to test out this BO...
Just curious but are 3 bunkers really necessary against 2 gate goon into observers? Assuming that you have decent repair micro, I think one or two bunkers are plenty. (I'm only a D player, so i may be wrong) Having that extra hundred minerals could result in an earlier push/faster tech.
Of course, the threat of an all-in is viable but still...
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EPT
