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On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
Muirhead observed that the comsats are finished and scan a few seconds before range completes, so if you spot the scan sweep animation at this timing you know that there almost certainly isn't a factory. In my games with him he tried adjusting to 3gate with reaver immediately after seeing the scan sweep and this was sufficient to stop an early all-bio attack.
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On August 29 2010 10:06 Froadac wrote:
Three rax makes me have reverse dejavu to starcraft 2.
Haha, me too.
KABOOM, BABY
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On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep?
I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game.
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On September 02 2010 02:16 DTK-m2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep? I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game.
You can just take your natural refinery in the event of a gas steal.
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On September 02 2010 02:23 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 02:16 DTK-m2 wrote:On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep? I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game. You can just take your natural refinery in the event of a gas steal.
Yes, in addition to doing a 15cc, putting a bunker at your natural, and getting range if you want to. Admittedly, getting the range upgrade is a bit more unorthodox than everything else. Flash does the 15cc + bunker + natural gas bit, but I haven't seen him get range.
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It all comes down to micro my good man. =)
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On September 02 2010 09:44 krndandaman wrote:
Do you really think that a 1rax opening terran (even if you're going bio) even has the option of pushing out against a 2base toss? In my opinion, there really isn't a timing window since you will have 1 tank at the most and a mix of goon,speedlot, and a dt or 2 would kill your army easy.
FD pushes beg to differ.
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I just tried this build twice. Once vs a korean, and I think I pushed too early and failed to do significant damage, but I kept pushing hoping to bust him. That was a bad idea. Since I was so focused on mpushing, I failed to put down my floating third and transfer SCV's.
Second game, I failed to repair because I was microing my scouting scv too hard lol.
Then he called me a noob and I raped him with standard TvP in the second game (with him.) I think I'll need more time to get used to this build before I can offer any real advice.
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On September 02 2010 10:47 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:55 xMiragex wrote:On September 02 2010 09:44 krndandaman wrote:
Do you really think that a 1rax opening terran (even if you're going bio) even has the option of pushing out against a 2base toss? In my opinion, there really isn't a timing window since you will have 1 tank at the most and a mix of goon,speedlot, and a dt or 2 would kill your army easy. FD pushes beg to differ. ? incase you didn't know, I meant 1rax CC. (as it's the opener for this build) so you can't FD out of 1rax CC... also, FD can only push out against 1gate builds, and even then you usually retreat after adding some pressure.
It's more like 1rax CC --> immediately add more rax after the CC finishes and there is a good chance the toss will take a fast 3rd to catch up, or at least send in an observer before overreacting. This 6gate/HT nonsense is not only too expensive to try before your economy is developed, it is slow to set up - which only tells me that you're speculating a counter-strategy and not speaking from evidence. Either that or you're accustomed to a Deep 6 timing which (as I've said) is much later than this build's rollout timing.
From evidence, it is sufficient to build only 3 of the 6 gates in addition to a shuttle + reaver, then expand to your third (have a forge for cannons in case things get messy), and then continue to add gates & tech to HT and zealot leg speed. Your 3rd and HT won't (shouldn't unless you're overreacting) be finished in time for an mnm+tank push so you will have to fight with what you have or yield a contain / 3rd to the Terran. To be honest, your templar won't be out in with storm and energy in time to stop siege tanks from setting up, and the bulk of your units will melt if they engage ... you're best off getting a reaver for defense and waiting for legs/storm before trying to retake map control. If you have good shuttle control you may be able to do a lot of damage, but stimmed marines will kill it if it gets too close to tank range.
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On September 02 2010 02:31 DTK-m2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 02:23 mmp wrote:On September 02 2010 02:16 DTK-m2 wrote:On September 01 2010 13:35 Thesecretaznman wrote:
I'm not going to argue that upgrading u-238 is a giveaway... but don't some Terrans use it for defending anyway? I know I saw Kawaiirice do it on several occaisions.
And I wasn't totally serious about ghosts, but we can consider the lower obs count, and the fact that ghosts do full damage to HT's (right?, please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure HT's are lightly armored) and ghosts get infantry upgrade, which will keep up with the protoss armor upgrades.
also, what is gummiwormz's highest rank, and what's the highest rank of the guy in the rep? I've seen some Terrans put a range bunker at their natural in response to a gas steal. It doesn't necessarily give away that the Terran is going for more than 1 rax. It could be 1 rax + range for a 15 cc, into a standard mech mid- and late-game. You can just take your natural refinery in the event of a gas steal. Yes, in addition to doing a 15cc, putting a bunker at your natural, and getting range if you want to. Admittedly, getting the range upgrade is a bit more unorthodox than everything else. Flash does the 15cc + bunker + natural gas bit, but I haven't seen him get range.
I'm not aware of any pro or "good" foreigner getting range and going mech (I assume if Kawaiirice used it he was in a particular danger of dragoon all-in after a gas steal, or he was just being cute). The cost doesn't justify the marginal safety gain you might get, and I certainly don't think it's worth playing mind games this way.
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ues ghosts to strengthen your bio army with the more gas you have
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On September 03 2010 08:12 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 21:31 mmp wrote:On September 02 2010 10:47 krndandaman wrote:On September 02 2010 09:55 xMiragex wrote:On September 02 2010 09:44 krndandaman wrote:
Do you really think that a 1rax opening terran (even if you're going bio) even has the option of pushing out against a 2base toss? In my opinion, there really isn't a timing window since you will have 1 tank at the most and a mix of goon,speedlot, and a dt or 2 would kill your army easy. FD pushes beg to differ. ? incase you didn't know, I meant 1rax CC. (as it's the opener for this build) so you can't FD out of 1rax CC... also, FD can only push out against 1gate builds, and even then you usually retreat after adding some pressure. It's more like 1rax CC --> immediately add more rax after the CC finishes and there is a good chance the toss will take a fast 3rd to catch up, or at least send in an observer before overreacting. This 6gate/HT nonsense is not only too expensive to try before your economy is developed, it is slow to set up - which only tells me that you're speculating a counter-strategy and not speaking from evidence. Either that or you're accustomed to a Deep 6 timing which (as I've said) is much later than this build's rollout timing. From evidence, it is sufficient to build only 3 of the 6 gates in addition to a shuttle + reaver, then expand to your third (have a forge for cannons in case things get messy), and then continue to add gates & tech to HT and zealot leg speed. Your 3rd and HT won't ( shouldn't unless you're overreacting) be finished in time for an mnm+tank push so you will have to fight with what you have or yield a contain / 3rd to the Terran. To be honest, your templar won't be out in with storm and energy in time to stop siege tanks from setting up, and the bulk of your units will melt if they engage ... you're best off getting a reaver for defense and waiting for legs/storm before trying to retake map control. If you have good shuttle control you may be able to do a lot of damage, but stimmed marines will kill it if it gets too close to tank range. Why would the protoss go for a fast 3rd against bio? Bio in TvP is ALWAYS used to hit a timing. By going 2base toss getting as much units as possible, you're eliminating the timing. You expand once you feel safe having adequate high templar and units to defend even double your supply of mnm. (exagerration, but still.) Why would I have obs tech, let alone observer this early on vs a terran who got marine range? I don't see how 6gate/HT is nonsense seeing how you skip robotech entirely. And of course I'm only 'speculating' at the moment since there is no one to play this strategy vs me. -_-;; I'd love to test out my counter strategies though. At the moment I have you and 832-U added on iccup, haven't seen you guys on yet.
Sorry I've been really busy with school and all. I may have some time tomorrow though.
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thanks for the replays. I really want to try this out and this will definitely help me. Does anyone else have any replays of using this build? or any testimonials?
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EPT
