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[G] How to Improve

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
July 12 2010 18:25 GMT
#1
I wrote a very detailed article was released in the latest Liquipedia issue here but I want to make sure as many people see it as possible. Hopefully everyone will be able to get value from this guide.

Download it here


*Note that the VOD list is outdated by almost half a year and not finished for TvT as I have been too busy and will updated when I have more time. It's still a good reference for TvZ/TvP games in early '10 and before.
Liquipedia
Lightwip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5497 Posts
July 12 2010 18:31 GMT
#2
It's a really nice read, although I did already know a good deal.
Tbh you should get some toss/zerg to help add to the guide, especially in VODs.
If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you.
LarJarsE
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1378 Posts
July 12 2010 19:18 GMT
#3
Only if it were for Starcraft 2.

Great read though!
since 98'
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
July 12 2010 19:31 GMT
#4
Damn ver- just finished reading the thing in entirety! appreciate all the hard work, and thanks- because its good players like you that help bad players like me get better This should be posted ASAP everywhere on tl and new players posting in the strat section should be forced to read it lol!

Once again, good work, thanks for the time and effort- and i plan on memorizing this
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
KP_CollectoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States744 Posts
July 12 2010 19:49 GMT
#5
I've already read through this about 5-6 times man, it's great and really inspiring. My question is: if we have specific questions for you is it okay to send you a pm? Would you rather answer the questions here? Or are you too busy at the moment in general? At any rate, fantastic work.
English Brood War Commentaries - Please Subscribe! youtube.com/dimecollectorsc... Winner of The "LeBron" Award for Best Rookie (FPL 5)
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
July 12 2010 19:53 GMT
#6
Everyone who hasn't read this should definitely take a look, regardless of skill level. I'm trying to advertise this as much as possible, because I fear it's not getting the attention it deserves. Thanks for all your hard work, Ver!
ella_guru
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada1741 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-12 20:26:07
July 12 2010 20:02 GMT
#7
I read it and it's pretty damn awesome.

Some real nuggets in there!

I really like stuff like this that have general maxims but specific examples. I like when you talk about perspectives/biases/mindsets and that sort of stuff, because it's really relevant and easily applicable to my music.
Each day gets better : )
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2055 Posts
July 12 2010 20:24 GMT
#8
great writeup Ver. if this was a blog id rate it 5/5
aka DragOn[NaS]
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
July 12 2010 21:16 GMT
#9
stickied, this is an excellent writeup. you'll learn a lot from reading it!
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Zed.iii
Profile Joined April 2010
50 Posts
July 12 2010 21:26 GMT
#10
with which program should I open this file? lol
Lightwip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5497 Posts
July 12 2010 21:43 GMT
#11
On July 13 2010 06:26 Zed.iii wrote:
with which program should I open this file? lol

Acrobat reader reads PDF's.
If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you.
AoN.DimSum
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2983 Posts
July 12 2010 21:49 GMT
#12
wow this is very nice! It is going to take awhile to finish the whole thing! :D
by my idol krokkis : "U better hope Finland wont have WCG next year and that I wont gain shitloads of skill, cause then I will wash ur mouth with soap, little man."
H.k[D]
Profile Joined April 2010
United States260 Posts
July 13 2010 03:50 GMT
#13
OMG <3 I love this guide. Makes me want to start playing again (got distracted by fps's again)
Hautamaki
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Canada1311 Posts
July 13 2010 04:08 GMT
#14
Very nicely written Ver, nicely laid out, very logical progression of topics, and of course very accurate. Great work!
True learning is not the memorization of knowledge; it is the internalization of patterns.
88.inspades
Profile Joined July 2010
Philippines32 Posts
July 13 2010 04:58 GMT
#15
Thanks Ver! We appreciate your hard work!
at first i was o_O but then i was -_-
Selth
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States469 Posts
July 13 2010 06:54 GMT
#16
Man... reading this makes me want to step up my gameplay. To be able to have such helpful information be compiled together and at my disposal... it's a motivator to do better, a testament to your knowledge and a testament to just how great of the game of Starcraft is. Amazing job with writing this article.
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
July 13 2010 08:51 GMT
#17
Good guide. It made me realize what my weaknesses were. Thanks.
ॐ
.Soul
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada81 Posts
July 13 2010 17:04 GMT
#18
Great read! I'm not a BW myself, what I've read will help me improve my SC2 game alot!
KiLL_ORdeR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1518 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-13 17:41:19
July 13 2010 17:36 GMT
#19
Ver, I don't know where you find the time to do this stuff, but you know your shit man keep it up. Thanks so much. I usually read something like this with the idea of getting 1, maybe two ideas to make myself better from the entire article, and I already have that many and I've only read the table of contents and the first part on goals. great great stuff

EDIT:
On July 14 2010 02:04 .Soul wrote:
Great read! I'm not a BW myself, what I've read will help me improve my SC2 game alot!


Just saw this. This guide goes way beyond the scope of SC, or any RTS game for that matter. Sure the specifics are obviously focused on BW, since he wrote it before SC2 came out. But the "broad strokes" as Day[9] would say, or the basic core principles, are the same in pretty much every area of life. But in short, yes this will help you improve in SC2.
In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-13 18:20:35
July 13 2010 18:12 GMT
#20
This part is especially good:
The worst part about the second problem is that due to the inherent nature of learning, the initial period of growth is always slow and will show little results. A beginning student cannot effectively comprehend the nature of what they are seeing because they have not built the mental framework to place it in: to them an SC game, especially a pro one, is just a series of actions happening for seemingly incomprehensible reasons. They can't understand their own games, so how could they even begin to relate to one played many levels higher? The slow growth during this period can easily lead to discouragement and is a stumbling block for many people; the inability to establish a mental framework is likely the reason why only a small fraction of SC players can ever get above the level of a d/d+ iccup player. The mental framework is a structural glue of sorts that stores and relates every known idea about the
subject. It cannot be fully realized until one can, at least at a basic level, incorporate together the patterns that govern the activity.


Some people I have tried to help give up after several lessons. Not enough dedication, don't understand what I'm saying well or don't put into action well. Slow progress so they get discouraged.

Mental framework is absolutely key, but difficult to talk about. Probably the best mention I have found of it is this chess article:
"The capacity for abstract thought. Correct generalizations, based on experience, produce the so-called “positional instinct” of a chess master.
The ability to distribute attention over a number of different factors such as are always involved in a “combination.” This avoids the overlooking of moves, which is the biggest weakness of most chess amateurs and beginners.
A disciplined will capable of forcing the speed and concentration of the thinking process far above the normal powers of a player."
http://www.chess.com/article/view/mentality-and-chess
Of course my issues are disciplined will and drive (motivation), which no article really helps.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
July 13 2010 20:10 GMT
#21
Sent the PDF to my work email address. Can't view Teamliquid at work, but I can view PDFs ^_^

Will be reading this during my 12 hour shift. Thanks for the write up Ver.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
ironcell
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile1127 Posts
July 13 2010 20:25 GMT
#22
very good , and a pleasure to read.
poboxy
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada48 Posts
July 14 2010 00:40 GMT
#23
Kuddos for using LaTeX!!
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-14 04:48:56
July 14 2010 04:09 GMT
#24
Ver, I think your writeup touches on a lot of good points. From the pov of a Terran, I like that you addressed what some standard solid play styles look like - with ample vods to accompany. But the majority of your recommendations involve refocusing the player's motivation from impatiently "just winning" to repetitively "studying what the pros do," when the fact is some of the strategies you mention the pros doing aren't even documented on Liquipedia, or could use far greater detail/discussion.

I think watching VODs and acquiring replays is the only way to meaningfully fill this gap (Liquipedia can't hold your hand forever), but sad as it is to say - Liquipedia just isn't what it could be. Most TL users probably don't feel qualified to comment on inadequate articles - and aside from your work on the Terran articles, I'm not aware of any user that has made significant contributions.

That said, it isn't fair to accuse players (say, D-C range) of being gimmicky or shortsighted when the resources they have are not up to date, are not comprehensive, and don't offer suggestions for when "your opponent perfectly counters your predictable build." The advice is always, practice practice practice and your mechanics will make up for it. Frankly, I'm not interested in emulating Flash's robotic macro - but I would like to get a feel for the strategic options at my disposal.

For example, playing against yellow-rank opponents I know my only chance to win is with predictable solid play. But achieving a meaningful win rate at this level takes hours of routine practice that I just don't have the time to maintain. I've found cheese strategies a fun way to mix things up, but I also like to explore the full depth of options, just so I know I'm not playing into what my opponent expects and is ready to exploit - sometimes I'm the one that gets the upper hand. This may not get me to a high rank any time soon, but at least I'm not wearing out my hands, my mind, and my love for the game.

Or another example, I open predictable TvP siege expand FE and my opponent does a 1gate FE into a greedy 3rd (1gate) seeing that I'm just doing mah build order. I should add a quick 2nd fac (or Stylish's 3fac is good here too I think) and make a "fac-cc-fac" push... but I won't even read about this situation or counter-strategy on Liquipedia (it's in the forums though, thanks to Idra's commentary). The majority of Liquipedia articles are similarly vague in their notion of what your options are and how you can respond. So I'll just die when my 3base timing push is outnumbered. Now I can mass a hundred games and "figure it out" but it would be simpler if someone just told me up front that Protoss is being greedy here. Practicing and mass gaming are important to improvement and intuition, but there is no need to hit our heads against brick walls just because information isn't in the open.

I'll wrap this up short and just summarize that I think your critique of weaker players should be more focused on their ignorance of educational resources that clearly demonstrate ways to improve, instead of attacking what you perceive to be intellectual malaise (probably the case for many noobies) and greed to find a quick gimmicky win (who doesn't like easy wins?). A lot of players want to get better but are afraid they need insane apm, think practicing one build a hundred times is boring, or just don't know what to read on Liquipedia ("so many historically significant 2facs to choose from...").

I know we've had this discussion several times now, and one thread made a good attempt at reasoning the full range of strategic options in a match - hardly any high level players took the time to drop some advice and the project turned into more of a scavenger hunt through preexisting threads. What I'm trying to say here is that TL has many small threads that relate to certain situations, and Liquipedia should represent all of this collective wisdom when in fact it is a project far from complete. Getting this information organized and well-documented will do far more to improve players than insulting their work ethic.
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
MisteR
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands595 Posts
July 14 2010 04:49 GMT
#25
Excellent work, especially for the budding terran user. However, it is your way to improve, and I'm not sure everyone will benefit from working so extremely rational.

I do hope that you will change your views on Horang2 by the way, since he is really stepping up his game. Also, I'm interested whether you think a player like Kwanro is bad.

I see terrans often have only appreciation for a good late game, when it seems reasonable to me that in a sport like this both early and late game are equally important.

In fencing you've got the same differentation as in starcraft: three weapons, foil, epee and sabre. In practice foil is the defensive weapon, sabre the offensive and epee is in between, terran, zerg and protoss, respectively.

Now my point is, that the way an epee fencer should learn his game, is in many points different from that of a sabre or foil fencer. Not only the technical aspect, which is obvious, but also the mental aspect. Playing zerg really good, requires a different mindset from playing terran or protoss.

What I notice on this website is a bias for the playstyle of terrans. While that's ok, it does mean that the protoss and zerg players often get a lack of respect. Players like Horang2 and Shine, who are both mentioned in your work, are actually better than you give hem credit for.

It is really hard to constantly beat your opponent in the early game, when he knows you're coming. Look at Arjen Robben in the WC and how he constantly was able to beat his man and try for a shot with his left leg. Same principle.

And it is also deserving of respect when Horang2 comes out with another amazing cheese, that somehow allows him to dictate to way the game is played. To make another WC reference, look at midfield playmakers like Verron from Argentina or Xavi/Xavi Alonso/Fabregas from Spain. They seem lazy ass players who only pass the ball around, but somehow it is always one of them that gives the deciding pass.

Though I can recognize quality when I see it, I can't actually use this excellent guide all that much, since I'm not a terran user. It would be interesting whether this could be replicated for a broader public, but it might just be impossible to cater to all audiences.

Anyway, I'm sure many people will be helped by it, and to be honest I've found quite a few interesting thoughts, so take what I just said with a grain of salt, please
Nal_Ra/Much/Horang2/Flying fighting!~
Hautamaki
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Canada1311 Posts
July 14 2010 05:51 GMT
#26
For a more Toss oriented look you can check out KnickKnack's page: www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com

For zerg, the last good writer for zerg was Tsunami and that's all 1.07/early 1.08 era stuff so pretty much you're on your own for zerg and you'll have to get by watching vods/reps for the most part =[
True learning is not the memorization of knowledge; it is the internalization of patterns.
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
July 14 2010 09:40 GMT
#27
I read the PDF... it was pretty much everything I already knew. I found Oov's "gotta rape" quote entertaining, but nothing in there that I haven't had told to me a thousand times.

I was hoping for more advanced Terran information.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
Gustav_Wind
Profile Joined July 2008
United States646 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-14 12:45:07
July 14 2010 12:18 GMT
#28
can someone explain to me what the "Hiya Build" is? I've never heard that term before.

On July 14 2010 18:40 Silentness wrote:
I read the PDF... it was pretty much everything I already knew. I found Oov's "gotta rape" quote entertaining, but nothing in there that I haven't had told to me a thousand times.

I was hoping for more advanced Terran information.


maybe consider that you aren't the target audience then?

I mean, it's "How to improve", not "the details of Terran strategy".

@ Mister:

I think you missed the point with the bit about Horang2. Well-designed "Creative" or "Aggressive" plays are a good way to win individual games, but focusing on such plays is not a good way to improve at all. You can say that Horang2 and Shine have valid styles (this is debatable), but they are not good styles to emulate if you are serious about developing as a player.

This isn't a Terran bias, either. Horang2 and Shine aren't respected because they tend to fall apart whenever the game enters mid-late game on even footing, not because they play Protoss and Zerg. (Horang2 seems to have tightened up his play considerably, but back when he was known for doing random cheeses he really was quite a bad player.)

It's about the developing the skillset which supports stability, low variance, and versatility.
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
July 14 2010 21:04 GMT
#29
This guides is really good! Thanks so much, Ver. I've been enjoying reading slowly through this and tweaking my Iccup games as I go. It's great to see continued support for Broodwar players on Teamliquid and I'm extremely grateful!
Esper[mb]
Profile Joined July 2010
United States88 Posts
July 14 2010 23:52 GMT
#30
this article is amazing, probably gonna end up reading it 10 times thx alot man
There's a fine line between looking good and looking gay
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
July 15 2010 17:14 GMT
#31
@KP_collector- pm or in here is fine I don't mind. You'll just have to wait a few days though because I don't have a particularly large amount of time at the moment.

@mmp- I agree Liquipedia is far from what it could be. The user impetus, especially from other players with a good understanding, simply isn't there. We tried to figure out solutions but there was too much apathy in general to contributing and in the end came up blank. At time there was a drive to collect advice from top strategy forum posters but we simply lacked motivated personal and it fizzled.

As for the rest, I'm rather confused. The resources they have at their disposal are incredible, namely TLPD. That alone is enough, but that's not all. Day9's podcasts, and more importantly his strategic analyses are great assets for forming a mental framework and refining it. Then you have the forum posts and while most contributions in the forum frankly aren't very helpful, there definitely are some gold mines. When I was learning I didn't have anyone like Day, Idra, or myself to help out, just pro vods and replays of a select few players and a bunch of second-rate explanations, and I managed quite well in months. People now are swimming in riches to get through the toughest parts, but evidently its not helping much and I'm certain the approach is at fault.

The strategic options at one's disposal are abundantly clear just from watching a select few player's games. You might say, 'well that takes a long time to watch 20 flash tvz's (even though you could just watch the openings and note what he does), but if you want to get good you need to watch those games anyways so why avoid it. Like I said in the guide you can't get good at an efficient rate without watching pro games. Of course there are faster ways of finding out and you should be making use of them (search the posts of people who give good advice maybe? start a thread?), but those are merely supplementary. The vast majority of foreigners, low or high level, simply do not make sufficient use of pro games, and they pay the price for it. Low level players do not have enough patterns stored, and high level players have no idea what they are doing.

You seem to think that you can shortcut learning by finding correct explanations of everything, but sadly this is a trap; it just isn't that simple. You may find the answer to that problem very quickly but you will just run into another one that you need an answer to, and so on. It becomes a never-ending cycle because there is no greater framework to store it in. That is what happens to most strategy forum questions. People get an answer for one specific problem, then they run into something else. I've seen it happen dozens of times to my students and strategy forum goers. Like it or not there are going to be plateaus, but there will also be very large leaps.

The way to circumvent this is by storing a large number of correct patterns over time (from watching pro games and playing). In the beginning it will be hard to make sense but as time goes on things will start to be clearer and soon after your learning will skyrocket because everything fits. For example for me right now, I can see a new strategy or concept and it will make sense within minutes, as if it just fits into place naturally. It may seem like this approach takes longer because you can't solve individual problems quickly in the start but it really is much quicker over the long run because you gain the ability to solve many problems instantly on your own and tie everything together. It certainly helps to look for specific answers as well (from the right sources) but forming correct patterns through watching pro games and playing the right way is not an option: it is a requirement.

The rest of what you said is answered in the guide. This was too but it appears I might not have explained it well enough.

@Mister- Gustav said it all. Race is irrelevant and this applies to other matchups just as easily (I play/study ZvT, not TvT btw). Look at the best players of every race right now, of every great player in history. Every single one was capable of defeating his opponents decisively in any phase of the game. They certainly could use allins, but they didn't have to. Julyzerg was a serious threat in the early game but he was still the strongest Zerg in the mid and late game as well. Effort won an OSL with ling allins and runbys but he is still a very fearsome late game player (as in the MSL game vs Flash). Ra had many creative allins and openings but he was also the best player at midgame timing attacks and was pretty much the only player to beat Savior in a late game PvZ. The list goes on and on.

As for Horang2, sorry but I haven't had the time to pay serious attention to SC for about 6 months (the majority of this was written that long ago) so I'm not up to date on most things. As for Kwanro (at least how he was), he is simply a player with a low ceiling. Kwanro is never going to win a final in his present form no matter how lucky of a bracket he gets. He certainly has the ability to get wins but he isn't a complete player.

@silentness- Really? That's quite surprising. I'm not sure what you were expecting then as this is an improvement guide, i,e how to improve rather than 'here are resources to use to improve.' If you want to ask some Terran analysis questions now go ahead I don't mind. But the principles of improving to very high levels will use the same principles and techniques as what I described; some things just become more important while others are already internalized.

@everyone else- thank you for the kind words
Liquipedia
pangshai
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Chinatown5333 Posts
July 15 2010 17:20 GMT
#32
added guide tag.
#1 midas fan
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
July 16 2010 07:15 GMT
#33
Awesome read, thanks alot for putting in the effort
Yhamm is the god of predictions
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
July 19 2010 02:34 GMT
#34
This is an awesome guide. I thanked for in the thread when it was first time feature and I want to thank Ver again. Wonderful read with really a lot of helpful guides, especially for Terran users.
SuperChad
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada3 Posts
July 19 2010 04:51 GMT
#35
As soon as a saw LaTeX, I knew this would be great. I wonder if you are a mathematics or comp. science major?
duckett
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States589 Posts
July 20 2010 01:30 GMT
#36
ver holy shit man, you're an amazing poster and probably the best person for any beginner to listen to, because you really cut through all the bad ways to go about learning starcraft.

thanks for this amazing article, and your help in the past
funky squaredance funky squaredance funky squaredance
Kare
Profile Joined March 2009
Norway786 Posts
July 20 2010 01:53 GMT
#37
Very nicely written!
In life you can obtain all sorts of material wealth, but the real treasure is the epic feelings you get while doing something you love.
endieg
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany49 Posts
July 20 2010 23:24 GMT
#38
gonna read it on my vacation :D
random x3
tOne
Profile Joined June 2010
1 Post
July 21 2010 01:24 GMT
#39
<3
Kudos to Ver
shin_toss
Profile Joined May 2010
Philippines2589 Posts
July 22 2010 01:14 GMT
#40
I will read it when I get back home.. cause I really need a good guide, thanks for the post.
AKMU / IU
Boomsheka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3 Posts
July 23 2010 01:15 GMT
#41
Ver, What is your suggestion for people who are coming into Starcraft 2 without a BW background? I'm assuming they are going to have a tough time researching then translating BW skill over to Starcraft 2 skill since they barely know what they are seeing and there is very little Top Level Korean replays or players this early....How do they not fall into the trap of watching what appears to be a high level player who truly is not....worse yet how do we even know what's really good right now.
Rio
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Vietnam598 Posts
July 23 2010 02:07 GMT
#42
Thanks alot
This is awsome
What ever ---------------------------------------------------™
Tempora
Profile Joined July 2010
United States78 Posts
July 23 2010 04:40 GMT
#43
i should probably read this. but im gonna be playing SC2 now, not broodwar... should i read it anyways? xD
who macro's? real men 6 pool.
ArobAce
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2 Posts
July 26 2010 20:16 GMT
#44
Great guide, thanks for including VoDs!
Better to do the screwing then get screwed
Entaro[AoV]
Profile Joined July 2009
United States184 Posts
July 28 2010 09:24 GMT
#45
Ver... what do you do IRL.. because I wanna know how someone has the capacity to write so effectively on such an elusive topic.
TL+ Member
MaRiNe23
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-31 02:50:44
July 31 2010 02:48 GMT
#46
Ver what kind of style do you play in TvP? Do you have like a reppack or something of your tvp games?

You listed alot of tvp strategies but you didn't include fantasy's style which I feel is the only way to beat toss t.t.... I don't like playing flash style because you just like leave the protoss alone most of the time while he gets expos and 50 gateways and arbiter+templars ready and it just hasn't been working for me. Right when I move out with my army, they either recall when im halfway across the map or just rape me with storm and stasis and re-max in 2 minutes from their 50 gateways.

For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx
We have competitive ladder, strong community, progaming in Korea going strong, perfectly balanced game..why do we need sc2? #1 ANTI-SC2 fan
HickleStine
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia276 Posts
July 31 2010 02:53 GMT
#47
On July 31 2010 11:48 MaRiNe23 wrote:
For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx


It's the iloveoov build, Ver did include videos of it. Three of them have fantasy playing.
monosofo
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru2 Posts
July 31 2010 21:37 GMT
#48
Amazing. Thank you very much.
alsowikk
Profile Joined July 2010
109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-01 02:39:33
August 01 2010 02:31 GMT
#49
God this is making me feel inferrior! I keep on trying to improve but, I can't get out of...bronze . I've got 3 problems, 1.general rush defence(I'm a terran) since the rushes are so delayed I can never get a handle for if I have enough units to hold or not, and 2. How to act against a turtleling enemy(bsides the genral out macro), 3. I need a strong build order vs p and t since...well I suck terribly.(I can't figure out how to start a thread...sorry!)
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-01 04:50:11
August 01 2010 04:35 GMT
#50
On August 01 2010 11:31 alsowikk wrote:
God this is making me feel inferrior! I keep on trying to improve but, I can't get out of...bronze . I've got 3 problems, 1.general rush defence(I'm a terran) since the rushes are so delayed I can never get a handle for if I have enough units to hold or not, and 2. How to act against a turtleling enemy(bsides the genral out macro), 3. I need a strong build order vs p and t since...well I suck terribly.(I can't figure out how to start a thread...sorry!)


Make a topic by logging in and clicking on the forum name (Like under the Starcraft 2 Strategy. When you click on this you will see the "Starcraft 2 Strategy" label on top with a red folder that says "New Topic". Post away!).

About your inquiry, what you should do, especially about early defense, is think of what you want to accomplish and try different things to accomplish this idea. The optimization is a "build order". The article suggests using old BW videos (or in your case, high level SC2 tournaments and streams) and getting your ideas from those people. Sure, it's more fun for some to think up their own, and that's a legitimate way of doing things, but if you're looking to improve really fast that's the way to go. Progamers have a lot of practice time to try ideas out. It's a shame we don't see the failed ideas so much, but by examining games from years ago we can see old styles, what they beat, and what beats them.

You don't need a "strong build order", you need a good idea, practice the mechanics of the idea, and then test it and see where you need to make adjustments.
Mobius
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1268 Posts
August 01 2010 12:51 GMT
#51
only page 18 so far, but its amazing!!
some of the info really suprised me ahah
thanks so much
Entusman #51
Gustav_Wind
Profile Joined July 2008
United States646 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-01 15:13:42
August 01 2010 15:09 GMT
#52
On July 31 2010 11:48 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Ver what kind of style do you play in TvP? Do you have like a reppack or something of your tvp games?

You listed alot of tvp strategies but you didn't include fantasy's style which I feel is the only way to beat toss t.t.... I don't like playing flash style because you just like leave the protoss alone most of the time while he gets expos and 50 gateways and arbiter+templars ready and it just hasn't been working for me. Right when I move out with my army, they either recall when im halfway across the map or just rape me with storm and stasis and re-max in 2 minutes from their 50 gateways.

For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx


The "fantasy style" (iloveoov build) is pretty unstable as it really depends on doing a lot of damage with the harass. I mean, fantasy himself almost never does it anymore...

The common tvp build right now in progames seems to be, take a fast 3rd + armory, but unlike the flash build you mass factories before starting the 4th. Around 2-1/near max you can make an aggressive move. If the timing of your 3rd is reasonably relative to the protoss' and your macro is good they shouldn't have time to get an enormous economy AND mass arbiters + templar by the time you push out. A defense of mines/turrets in your main makes a recall backstab a costly exchange if they try to do that while you push out.

I love the fantasy/iloveoov build style but if you don't consider standard TvP play viable I think you need to work on your mechanics a bit.
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
August 02 2010 04:35 GMT
#53
Thank you so much for this, it must have taken a lot of time. Really appreciate the hard work you must have put into it.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
August 04 2010 00:45 GMT
#54
I'm very glad everyone is getting good value out of this!

On July 19 2010 13:51 SuperChad wrote:
As soon as a saw LaTeX, I knew this would be great. I wonder if you are a mathematics or comp. science major?


Thank Stet_tcl for the latex, he and the Liquipedia team were a big help in making this look presentable. My interests are actually in Military History and Strategy.

On July 31 2010 11:48 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Ver what kind of style do you play in TvP? Do you have like a reppack or something of your tvp games?

You listed alot of tvp strategies but you didn't include fantasy's style which I feel is the only way to beat toss t.t.... I don't like playing flash style because you just like leave the protoss alone most of the time while he gets expos and 50 gateways and arbiter+templars ready and it just hasn't been working for me. Right when I move out with my army, they either recall when im halfway across the map or just rape me with storm and stasis and re-max in 2 minutes from their 50 gateways.

For these reasons I been trying to do the mass vulture harrass style of fantasy but you didn't include it in your guide and im just wondering if u forgot or u don't consider it a viable strategy? Also ur tvp reppack would be very helpful if u can. thx


My replays...uh I might be able to get some? That will take some time though as all my good TvP games against good players are from mid-2009 and I might or might not have them anymore. Although I can see why it would be useful given what I have written, watching pro games is much better than watching even someone like me because my understanding of the game is much greater than my playing ability due to extreme lack of games played. I'll see what I can do though.

As for oov's build, it's obviously not the only way or else all non-SKT1 Terrans wouldn't be winning so much lately . It is of course very good though. Flash's style is not particularly good for ladder even though it can work because bad Protoss players will cheat on timings without realizing it and its up to the Terran to punish them for it. Thus Rax expand -> timing attack, fact cc fact, oov's build, and Hiya's build all become much stronger. When playing against better players, if you can deny them information they cannot safely cut corners to get them so ahead against Flash style so it becomes much more viable. I'll include a pm I just responded to at the bottom that goes into this.

On July 23 2010 10:15 Boomsheka wrote:
Ver, What is your suggestion for people who are coming into Starcraft 2 without a BW background? I'm assuming they are going to have a tough time researching then translating BW skill over to Starcraft 2 skill since they barely know what they are seeing and there is very little Top Level Korean replays or players this early....How do they not fall into the trap of watching what appears to be a high level player who truly is not....worse yet how do we even know what's really good right now.


SC2 at the moment does not have the same rules as SC does right now to a certain degree but a modified approach of this guide will still work as I've used it for other games in their infancy (Guild Wars).

There will be balance changes and expansions in addition to normal strategical evolution, so while copying what the best players do will help to some degree, it's not stable. You don't want to be copying with the thought of making them your 'standard' for any significant amount of time. Rather, the point of learning from the best would be to gain understanding of what works so you can have the foundation to figure out other things that work. Skilled SC2 players that come from competitive RTS backgrounds (i,e the ex-SC1 pros, they would be my pick to learn from) will have a lot of things inherent in their play that is worth learning especially for those without that BW background. SC2 is similar enough to BW in structure that by learning from those experienced in it you can still make use of the 11 years of strategy evolution that BW has made.

Everyone will experience the same uncertainty that comes from being a new game far from its boundaries and the constant outside tinkerings, but those that really grasp the underlying structure of the game will be able to adapt much more readily to changing circumstances than others.

On August 02 2010 00:09 Gustav_Wind wrote:
The "fantasy style" (iloveoov build) is pretty unstable as it really depends on doing a lot of damage with the harass. I mean, fantasy himself almost never does it anymore...

The common tvp build right now in progames seems to be, take a fast 3rd + armory, but unlike the flash build you mass factories before starting the 4th. Around 2-1/near max you can make an aggressive move. If the timing of your 3rd is reasonably relative to the protoss' and your macro is good they shouldn't have time to get an enormous economy AND mass arbiters + templar by the time you push out. A defense of mines/turrets in your main makes a recall backstab a costly exchange if they try to do that while you push out.

I love the fantasy/iloveoov build style but if you don't consider standard TvP play viable I think you need to work on your mechanics a bit.


A minor quibble: Fantasy doesn't do his build every game because he is not versatile enough and only the threat of other builds would let him use his build. Early game TvP the Protoss cannot get enough information fast enough to accurately counter everything the Terran can do so they either have to play it safe and the Terran can get ahead with very fast expansions or they need to take risks and cut corners, opening themselves up to some timing attack or another. The issue with all the top Terrans at various times is that they don't have enough variety in their play. For the longest time an opponent would know exactly what Flash would do and could play; the same goes for Fantasy. If you know he will do oov's build you can stop it by slowing down your 3rd base, but you can't stop it without being behind versus more economic builds. And without knowing before the game, you can't get the information needed without being vulnerable to something like fact cc fact. So while Fantasy was playing the same build over and over, the Protoss could safely blindly play against that build without fearing the repercussions. TvP is all about trade-offs and risks.

+ Show Spoiler [Relevant TvP strategy pm] +
Your questions are good and I'm happy to see you are watching the games you have listed. It's not a problem that things don't make full sense right now, just keep asking questions and learning patterns and it will come. I could write for dozens of pages on this and still not be able to explain everything fully so I'll try to focus on a few key points.

A great deal of TvP comes down to information. Protoss have a technical map hack potential in the observer but it is something they must use and fight for, not be given. The Terran is the one who directs the flow of the match and the Protoss reacts, so if they are denied information, they will not know what to react to properly. Sometimes, getting the observers themselves opens them up to timing windows.

For example, the fact cc fact you mentioned. This build has several ways it can work, depending on how each side opened (fact cc/rax cc, 1 gate expand, 1 gate obs expand; doesn't apply if Protoss 12 Nex, 2 gate expand or later or does reaver/dt off 1 base). In each case the Protoss is sacrificing a 2nd gateway of dragoons in order to get something else (tech/nexus) and you will have a window for unit superiority. The fact that this exists (and it is probably the most popular strategy at the moment) hurts Protoss options as well; if they want their observers fast they have to take a major risk. If they want to avoid that risk (say 1 gate expand -> 2nd gate before robo), they are delaying their observers and making it harder to figure out what is going on.

The 2/1 timing attack variation is one of the most flexible (and therefore least allin strategies). If for example you do the Hiya build (fact cc cc armory -> mass fact timing attack) you are cutting upgrades and tech and expansions in order to deliver a powerful knockout blow. This makes your attack comparatively stronger, but if the Protoss can avoid critical damage, they will be way ahead. That is not the case for the 2/1 timing attack (assuming an even game up till that point), where you are not sacrificing anything, but more going a middle path. So long as you don't get routed you will still get a protected 4th base up, have excellent upgrades and tech, and still have map control potential. At the same time, you aren't going to win that battle and win the game right there nearly as easily.

A big part of it is also the complete immunity to 2 base tech builds. The fast armory/academy means that you will repel any 2 base reaver/dt (which are very good otherwise) with ease; this is what opens up the window for the 2/1 timing in the first place back when the strategy was created as the Protoss invested in an attack that can't do damage. If for example you would do the Hiya build mentioned above and gear towards the timing of the Protoss taking an overly fast 4th base (which they would like to against a 2/1 timing), a 2 base reaver or dt drop would likely do solid damage and be an effective deterrent to that timing push. But as a general rule of thumb, attack upgrades in TvP are game-changing. The 2/1 attack rushes that 2nd attack as fast as possible and gears the attack around the strongest a Terran army can be with it, regardless of the Protoss actions.

Now why can't the Protoss just optimize, take 3 bases really fast, get some gates/tech and take a 4th? They don't know what the Terran is doing. If they want to take a risk they can go arbiters and take a 3rd base off 2 gate (dies to oov build/fact cc fact), or do 1 gate double expand (dies to same thing). If they don't want to take a risk they might 2 gate obs nexus and have defending chances vs oov build and repel a fact cc fact, but be weaker against a 2/1 or Hiya build, and they will certainly be behind if the Terran takes a very fast 4th base.

A great example of the information problem is in Bisu vs Flash on Medusa here. Flash goes fact cc armory cc and repels Bisu's early pressure (tiny lead). The key point is Flash's turrets prevented Bisu from knowing what he was doing, forcing Bisu to make some assumptions. I'm not quite sure what Bisu though he would do (I'm guessing 2/1 timing attack) but Bisu was certainly confused when he saw Flash take his 4th before attacking (Flash did it off of 2 factories!!). Had Bisu gotten the key information of factory and troop count he would have crushed Flash's middle position and had a winning advantage (he had 200 supply to 120).

But he didn't know, and this lack of information made him hesitant. Instead of either attacking or expanding fast to 3, he held on 4 bases in order to mass up and prevent an attack (that didn't come!). When he thought Flash was turtling instead of attacking when he needed to, he made a recall that was a minute or two late. Instead of Bisu killing an expo and eventually stalling Flash's attack (which would have happened if Flash had taken his 4th later in the same continuation), Flash has enough income and army to dominate the key Protoss natural choke, repel the recall and reinforce, and therefore win the game.

As for Stork/Flash on Tau, make sure you assess the whole game. Flash is able to do damage with a fact cc fact and gain an advantage while Stork gets 2 base reaver and does little. This advantage lets Flash continue to expand rapid to 4 bases while getting upgrades and tech and keep up the harass (Stork can't attack the fast exapnsions or he dies to harass, he can't defend from harass fully due to lack of units/money for cannons). Flash keeps up his harass for as long as feasible and he has a really flexible window of when to move out given his large advantage. He just needs to attack before Stork can recover from all the harass.

For Flash/Shuttle on RotK, Shuttle goes 1 gate obs nexus -> 2 base reaver Nexus. The fast observer lets him confirm Flash's intentions at least for the start (to go for 3 base with armory, but he can't know if he goes for 2/1 timing or fast 4th) and he is economically behind. Flash's drop does no damage, so the game is pretty equal at that point. The problem comes in that Flash goes for a 2/1 timing but he doesn't actually make the attack, possibly sensing that it wouldn't work well due to his failed drop and Shuttle's expansion timing (I'm not quite sure). So Flash takes his 4th at 2/1 timing (he could've taken it much faster and been ahead) and the position isn't looking good for him. His harass does slow Shuttle down a bit in taking more expansions (ideally he would've wanted all the bases at 11 up sooner) but Flash's decision making wasn't the best this game or this series (he screwed up and lost the first game too).

Now the game turns more into a contest of maneuvering. Flash either needs to fight a battle at a vastly superior position and win decisively (as Shuttle simply has so many expansions), then rapidly kill of Shuttle's expansions and prevent him from amassing a new army, or he needs to slowly take the expansions at 1, establish an impregnable defensive position and simultaneously prevent Shuttle from doing so. This is why Flash is spending so much time with his vultures during this otherwise idle period, and why Shuttle is moving his army around constantly to stop the vultures. Note that Flash does not have to commit to either plan, he just has to execute one successfully. However, the 'win a big battle' plan needs to happen before Shuttle can establish a full second battery of gateways at 11 (which the harass did delay). Flash's best hope is that Shuttle screwed up and maxed too quickly with only one arbiter (though he has templars).

The key point comes when Flash lures Shuttles army away from the middle into clearing mines at the mid right and then into 1 (Shuttle can't get observers in position to see Flash's maneuvers due to goliaths + vessels and turrets). Flash quickly takes the high ground and mines up, putting himself at a massive advantage. Shuttle will die if he attacks the position from the single ramp, especially with the lack of stasis available. Shuttle's retreat path is very long and Flash can easily attack his natural or 11 expansions from a vastly superior position(countering is not an option due to the mines/terrain/central position superiority). His attack up the ramp was a bad one but it was a move of desperation; he could have made a fight had he retreated north and tried to await an opening.

-----------------------------------------
Original Message:
First off, I absolutely love the guide you wrote. It states with certainty many of the things that I have suspected since I started playing Broodwar. The list of VODs and advice on how to improve has so much common sense and sound reasoning behind it.

I'm a rather terrible Terran player with a short history in broodwar. I was looking through the builds you listed examples for, and it looks to me that two of them (FE into 2fact timing and 4fact) are designed to hit the protoss when he is either taking a third or I suppose teching too fast to arbiters. That's what I would summarize the overall 'goal' of the build as (correct me if I'm totally off).

However, I don't at all understand the 'goal' of the Flash build. The explanations I've read (not ideal, I guess) suggest that the build aims for a timing attack when you reach 2/1 upgrades. This does not make very much sense to me. Unless there's some direct consequence of these 2/1 upgrades that I am missing (like +1 zealot attacks in PvZ), isn't the idea of pushing out blindly at 2/1 well, rather foolish. Why shouldn't the protoss simply optimize his economy to have the maximum number of units when this push comes out? How can a 'timing attack' not be based on how the Protoss is spending his money?

I went to liquipedia, and while it informs me that 2/1 is merely a guideline, and that terrans should push to take advantage of a protoss expansion to teching to Arbiters/Carriers. While this makes more sense, I have a hard time ... well, believing it. I can see how 400 minerals might be a major concern in the early game (explaining why the 4fact and CC into 2fact timing builds work). However, in armies that are presumably 150 food, can 3 dragoons really make such a big difference?

I also tend to have a hard time understanding why Flash pushes when he does. In some games, like Flash vs Sangho on Medusa, its seems to be rather obvious. However, in other games such as Flash vs Shuttle on ROTK and Flash vs Stork on Tau Cross, I really have no idea. At best what I can think of is that Flash pushed relatively soon after Shuttle's first arbiter was out in his game on ROTK. What kind of timing is that hoping to exploit? Shuttle has already spent on the Stargate and Arbiter Tribunal, so while he might be short that many units minus the gateway cost, he's already reaped the benefits of his investment, hasn't he? Or is there some critical mass of Arbiters that makes the army that much more effective?

I guess in more general terms, there's something I must be missing about the concept of a timing attack. Like I said, I can sort of grasp the idea of pushing based on tech: a Terran pushing out with 3 tanks to exploit the lack of defilers and pressure the Zerg front, a +1 zealot attack in PvZ, etc. It seems to me that these attacks have less to do with where money is being spent and more to do with ... unit counters, for lack of a better term. However, pushing out against a maxed protoss because he spent 400 minerals - none of which could actually go into army production because of the supply cap anyway - seems questionable. Is that actually the reasoning?

I appreciate any response you might have to my overly simplistic and probably rather foolish questions =)
Liquipedia
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
August 04 2010 23:07 GMT
#55
Got damn that's a lot of info in that post. I'm a copy & paste and send to my work email since TL is banned from my job. :sad face:
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
August 05 2010 19:13 GMT
#56
On July 23 2010 10:15 Boomsheka wrote:
Ver, What is your suggestion for people who are coming into Starcraft 2 without a BW background? I'm assuming they are going to have a tough time researching then translating BW skill over to Starcraft 2 skill since they barely know what they are seeing and there is very little Top Level Korean replays or players this early....How do they not fall into the trap of watching what appears to be a high level player who truly is not....worse yet how do we even know what's really good right now.


One very important point I forgot. The current chaotic state of SC2 means that there will be a good amount of available games where top players beat down much weaker ones, which is excellent learning material. Keep a special look for those games and pour over them.
Liquipedia
Frigo
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary1023 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 03:04:33
August 08 2010 03:02 GMT
#57
Too many times I encounter fellow D/D+ players who execute some nice practiced build order, or even invent some clever way to screw me over, succeed in doing so, then after that... do nothing.

One PvP game the guy exploited my 2gate forge opening by dropping DTs into my main, killing my nexus, and after I rebuilt it, he attacked my natural and took it out as well. Then... he let me rebuild it and macro up like a fucker off 3 bases (1 hidden) and simply handed me the game.

One PvT game I tried to fast exp off 1gate and defend it with DTs. The guy killed my nexus with some "fake double" (after siege exp), and then... 10 minutes of inactivity. Again, I double exped first, macro whore'd and took out his tiny push with the usual zeal/goon/arb.

One PvT game where the guy kept doing nice vulture drops all the time, except I deflected them and was taking my 4th by then, all the while he had 2 factories and 3 CCs standing idle (the 3rd didn't even have any mining SCVs). Too bad I disconnected, my transformation into MacroWhore was almost complete, and I could have 1a2a3a'd him easily.

Numerous PvZ games where the zerg loved a single unit so much, they never wanted to make anything else. 2gate sair and zeal/archon push into zerg main? I'll make more mutas! Toss taking his 4th? I know, let's keep throwing hydras at him!

My advice:
- Know thy followup, should your strategy succeed or fail
- Push your advantage
- Think it through what the hell are you doing, seriously
http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Treasure_Chest
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
August 08 2010 06:47 GMT
#58
This is so great Ver, thanks so much! Eagerly waiting for that TvT update.
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Never.Die
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan189 Posts
September 05 2010 13:44 GMT
#59
Thank you very much for this guide <3, I'll definitely study this for a while, now that I'm back to SC:BW
zengrz
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada37 Posts
September 27 2010 00:01 GMT
#60
Thanks a lot. I kept losing.

Hope it can help me~
Licmyobelisk
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines3682 Posts
October 10 2010 02:17 GMT
#61
I just want to make an epic bump and because I miss this person. Man, when are you going to bring your insightful play by play to the SC 2 scene I don't know.. but I will be waiting
I don't think I've ever wished my opponent good luck prior to a game. When I play, I play to win. I hope every opponent I ever have is cursed with fucking terrible luck. I hope they're stuck playing underneath a stepladder with a black cat in attendance a
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
October 10 2010 05:32 GMT
#62
--- Nuked ---
Starscreamer
Profile Joined October 2010
3 Posts
October 11 2010 05:30 GMT
#63
--- Nuked ---
Boom_Headshot
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1 Post
November 07 2010 10:42 GMT
#64
Great work Ver

we need more poeople like you doing this kind of legwork. Congrats on the effort and hard word
Jumping feet first into hell insn't your job...making sure it's crowded when you get there is...
Mutaller2
Profile Joined December 2010
United States7 Posts
December 14 2010 02:42 GMT
#65
Thanks I don't want to get my eyes glued to my Computers so im going to print it sometime soon
Silentenigma
Profile Joined July 2009
Turkey2037 Posts
December 14 2010 20:42 GMT
#66
Thanks for the good work!
日本語が上手ですね
NationInArms
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1553 Posts
December 20 2010 23:05 GMT
#67
Thank you very much. You helped me finally win a game, breaking a 20+ game losing streak.
BW for life | Fantasy, MMA, SlayerS_Boxer | Taengoo! n_n | "Lelouch vi Britannia commands you! Obey me, subjects! OBEY ME, WORLD!" | <3 Emi
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11143 Posts
December 22 2010 18:39 GMT
#68
i can't help but feel that Horang2 (at least his PvP) has become solid enough that he is no longer a good example of someone who is only good at cheesing. kwanro maybe?
brood war for life, brood war forever
Scrimpton
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom465 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-18 11:37:11
January 18 2011 11:36 GMT
#69
Honestly this needs to become something that you HAVE to read, line by line before you are allowed to post on team liquid, or at least the strategy section.

This doesn't get enough praise or attention, and is a great example of how the sc community kicks so much ass. These thoughts and strategies apply to so many things in life, It's kind of embarrassing that you can learn more about learning... from a video game forum than from 10 years of schooling.

But that's a rant for another time..



edit: Oh, it should also be requisite for sc2 forum ^_^
Protoss is the only race with "pro" in it
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
January 26 2011 14:39 GMT
#70
So much great information for younger (or older) players to ruminate over, that and this is also quite well written.
Administrator
SkinDeep
Profile Joined February 2011
Singapore7 Posts
February 10 2011 03:17 GMT
#71
One thing i have found with SC2 that improved my play quite a bit is two things.
Constantly producing probes ans SCVs Drones are an exception. and DONT GET SUPPLY BLOCKED!! if you follow these you should see an improvment.
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
February 10 2011 03:35 GMT
#72
On February 10 2011 12:17 SkinDeep wrote:
One thing i have found with SC2 that improved my play quite a bit is two things.
Constantly producing probes ans SCVs Drones are an exception. and DONT GET SUPPLY BLOCKED!! if you follow these you should see an improvment.

Lol maybe in SC2 but in BW, you should have both those mastered pretty much by d+.
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
February 10 2011 10:05 GMT
#73
On February 10 2011 12:35 etheovermind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 10 2011 12:17 SkinDeep wrote:
One thing i have found with SC2 that improved my play quite a bit is two things.
Constantly producing probes ans SCVs Drones are an exception. and DONT GET SUPPLY BLOCKED!! if you follow these you should see an improvment.

Lol maybe in SC2 but in BW, you should have both those mastered pretty much by d+.


hell you should master that like halfway through D.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
SkinDeep
Profile Joined February 2011
Singapore7 Posts
February 13 2011 06:59 GMT
#74
Um. you say that it is easy and you should have it mastered right? So that means that you never get supply blocked and you are always producing workers right? I dont know how good a player you are but I dont think you never get supply blocked and I dont think you constanly produce workers? i am not saying you are bad or anything i am just stating that these thing take a very long time to get use to and to master, it sounds easy but when you are in the game and there is alot of stuff going on its hard to remember to do these. but if you are able to it increases your level of play by a huge amount.
ToFu.
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
331 Posts
February 13 2011 07:08 GMT
#75
true story: a while ago, i was playing a TvP vs a korean (i was around 1100 and he was 1400 or so), when around 90 food or so i had somehow gotten supply blocked. i fixed this in about 15s, but by that time his much larger army just raped mine...

so yeah most D's should not have problems with this.
Constipation Zerg Fighting!
SkinDeep
Profile Joined February 2011
Singapore7 Posts
February 13 2011 10:39 GMT
#76
yeah you are right not most D's normally wont have a problem with this. but for gold silver and bronze players, this is one of the things that they need to work on the most in order to increase their skills. Micro is nothing without a good Macro. If you dont have the economy you dont have money to produce anything and if you dont have anything you are dead.... Basically you have to walk before you run. Macro first then develope the micro skills later.
meowmasta
Profile Joined September 2010
146 Posts
March 16 2011 01:56 GMT
#77
Thank you very much for this guide! I just stumbled upon it, and it does a great job explaining certain misconceptions and certain nuances and subtleties that extend to even other games. I also absolutely love the phrase to internalize patterns. It's first pattern recognition, and then internalizing it so that it becomes part of one's makeup. This applies not only to gaming, but just learning any new concept in general as well. One can say that they understand they guide, but until they make it part of their play, and internalize it, one can't say that they have truly understood the guide. Unless they don't agree with what's written Anyways, gj, and thanks again, I will recommend this to anyone looking to start at BW just like me!
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
March 16 2011 16:17 GMT
#78
this should be read by anyone that posts in the strategy forum.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
dvlmn
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada3 Posts
March 21 2011 21:10 GMT
#79
so awesome, definitely a great reference/learning tool.
AfecksN
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom53 Posts
March 23 2011 20:26 GMT
#80
Ah I remember this being my bible of how to improve back when I started...
Still have it saved next to my Starcraft folder for reminding on the correct mind-set :3
BW Commentator~ http://www.youtube.com/user/AfecksN
getSome[703]
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States753 Posts
March 24 2011 05:11 GMT
#81
I need to go to bed but I just found this and I dont want to stop reading..
Running Log! http://www.runningahead.com/logs/5081b4d7a4a94c5e8fa20b01e668dfb6/calendar
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
May 01 2011 10:03 GMT
#82
This is an extraordinary writeup! we really need this to be spread around TL
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
June 07 2011 23:30 GMT
#83
Thanks Ver! ^^

I even added this on my Kindle for me to read.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
JOHNYBRAVO
Profile Joined June 2011
27 Posts
June 12 2011 11:53 GMT
#84
Nice reading, thanks a lot but I'm wondering about switching to sc2 unfortunately. That's really hard to found a game lately...
Make the dreams come true!
iRk
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden83 Posts
June 13 2011 20:41 GMT
#85
Great reading, hope it will inprove my game!
Think less, play more.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9489 Posts
June 13 2011 20:46 GMT
#86
On June 12 2011 20:53 JOHNYBRAVO wrote:
Nice reading, thanks a lot but I'm wondering about switching to sc2 unfortunately. That's really hard to found a game lately...

Why would you switch to sc2? That's like the opposite of what you should be doing!
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
zyce
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States649 Posts
June 19 2011 18:08 GMT
#87
<3 ver
Thanks
Beauty is not the goal of competitive sports, but high-level sports are a prime venue for the expression of human beauty. The relation is roughly that of courage to war.
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
June 20 2011 08:44 GMT
#88
On June 12 2011 20:53 JOHNYBRAVO wrote:
Nice reading, thanks a lot but I'm wondering about switching to sc2 unfortunately. That's really hard to found a game lately...


Hard to find a BW game? Have you really tried playing? It so easy to get games, even on iccup ladder. Unless you have problems in ports.
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
June 20 2011 15:39 GMT
#89
Wow, ridiculously well written. You need to be nerfed for that
don_kyuhote
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
3006 Posts
July 03 2011 16:26 GMT
#90
Wait....this was written only a year ago?
Damn..
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Zickzackzick
Profile Joined May 2011
Taiwan99 Posts
July 15 2011 04:19 GMT
#91
awesome sauce
zerg da beast breh
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 00:56:27
July 20 2011 00:52 GMT
#92
edit: nevermind I read all the posts and it was answered.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
July 20 2011 03:28 GMT
#93
I seriously had given a lot of thought's about ver guideline to become a better player be it T/Z/P still a task that is not easily done although it's morel likely that i will improve if i tried to explore the game more by myself and realizing what i should do during that kind of certain situation and micro plus macro do not come naturally for me it all comes from serious hardwork T_T.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Skeggaba
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Korea (South)1556 Posts
July 24 2011 21:12 GMT
#94
Just read most of it - fantastic! Cant wait to start playing again (been away for a year plus my computer broke down)..
Is iccup still around, and does anyone still play?
Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous.
NationInArms
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1553 Posts
July 24 2011 21:45 GMT
#95
iccup is still around, maybe 500 players online at any given time, 800 tops I think.
BW for life | Fantasy, MMA, SlayerS_Boxer | Taengoo! n_n | "Lelouch vi Britannia commands you! Obey me, subjects! OBEY ME, WORLD!" | <3 Emi
gvb
Profile Joined March 2010
United States30 Posts
July 25 2011 22:14 GMT
#96
I had problems getting games until I set up port forwarding. Now I host and people join my games instantly.
KenNage
Profile Joined May 2009
Chile885 Posts
July 26 2011 09:25 GMT
#97
awesome stuff is awesome, thx for the hard work (:
Theeakoz
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1114 Posts
August 25 2011 20:23 GMT
#98
thanks reading this is gonna be a lot of fun, I really appreciate your help
Please change the luck dependancy of spawning locations on rotationally symmetric maps.
erikzbi
Profile Joined May 2011
China43 Posts
October 19 2011 04:51 GMT
#99
thx this helped a lot
gu-val
Profile Joined March 2011
59 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 11:01:15
October 19 2011 10:36 GMT
#100
iccup is still around, maybe 500 players online at any given time, 800 tops I think.
http://81.200.1.199/sconline/test.php the script I made when was active on iccup.

Max population since August, was detected at 2011-08-15, 23:10:00, 1076 people.

Timezone is GMT+3 or something (Moscow time).
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 19 2011 21:50 GMT
#101
The awesome replay pack initially linked in the PDF seems to be non-existant now. Any chance someone could repost it?
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-20 08:51:03
October 20 2011 08:49 GMT
#102
[url blocked]
Pretty much all from this thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=106115
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
October 20 2011 16:15 GMT
#103
ils, you are a godsend! Thanks so much!
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
kRis[Mb]
Profile Joined October 2011
Hungary3 Posts
November 03 2011 13:05 GMT
#104
Is there any way to upload it in other format? Idc if .doc or .txt but I prefer not to install adobe reader T.T ...
Thanks
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6505 Posts
November 03 2011 23:53 GMT
#105
the guide is amazing,the only bad in my case is all about toss and terr,hard to find amazing things about zerg
mtwow789
Profile Joined April 2011
67 Posts
November 29 2011 18:16 GMT
#106
Wow...
My PvT improved significantly after reading this guide.
This thread suggests using 12 nexus, and I think I am winning 10 in a row with diff opponents each time.
12 Nexus makes 2 fac Terran game a easy win.

I used to use bulldog toss, and always lost to better T players.nse.
tryummm
Profile Joined August 2009
774 Posts
November 29 2011 18:53 GMT
#107
On November 30 2011 03:16 mtwow789 wrote:
Wow...
My PvT improved significantly after reading this guide.
This thread suggests using 12 nexus, and I think I am winning 10 in a row with diff opponents each time.
12 Nexus makes 2 fac Terran game a easy win.

I used to use bulldog toss, and always lost to better T players.nse.


The 12 Nexus is a very powerful tool to have, but make sure you can use all the openings on all the maps they are viable on. For instance, on a map like Bloody Ridge or Alternative a 12 Nexus might not be as strong as on La Mancha, Jade, or Electric Circuit.

Being able to properly execute the 3 Dragoon expand and other 1 Gateway openings will really solidify your understanding of the game and in game mechanics, if you learn them correctly. However, if you always resort in the 12 Nexus opening (Which most players on iCCup have no idea how to play against) I question how much you will actually improve, especially in a BOX series or tournament play.
aznboi918
Profile Joined February 2010
United States70 Posts
November 29 2011 21:51 GMT
#108
Being a former BW player who switched to SC2 just a while ago this is an amazing piece of writing... Good work!!! it applies to SC2 as well and it has enlightened me so much haha thanksss. will take your advice to heart
"I want to share my bloody tears with those who cry because the road they chose was too difficult, or those that gave up their dreams to take the road that was a little easier." (Lim Yo Hwan)
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
November 30 2011 17:16 GMT
#109
One of the best guides I have ever read, ever :D
Life's good :D
CheyRa
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom62 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 13:00:31
December 15 2011 12:58 GMT
#110
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
December 17 2011 20:39 GMT
#111
hello, i felt nostalgic and downloaded broodwar, is there a player out there who wants to help me setting up for Iccup and mentoring me ?

p.m me!!

theleo_ua
Profile Joined December 2010
Ukraine150 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-30 18:06:38
December 27 2011 18:00 GMT
#112
On July 13 2010 03:25 Ver wrote:On the other hand, if your goal is trying to improve as much as possible, why would you waste your time doing allins at the start? What is that going to teach you but a small subset of the game? At best, you'll become Horang2, a completely unpredictable entity that loses more than he wins because his core skillset doesn't exist. If you want to only steal the odd game from higher leveled players, then someone like Horang2 is a great guide to follow. If you don't want to improve and just want to do whatever crazy strategy you think of, well just go do that. So before you start off , fi gure out what you want to aim for, then adjust the means to that goal.


http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6339/203horang2eng.jpg

[image loading]
My BW events/showmatches: https://tinyurl.com/theleo-fund / This will be awesome if they manage to only improve the graphics but keep the gameplay EXACTLY THE SAME. One thing that makes BW great to watch is actually the buggy pathfinding (c) Dante08
krzych113
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
United Kingdom547 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 03:38:18
February 18 2013 03:37 GMT
#113
sick, could anyone upload the mega pro reppack from the pdf ? i'm still looking, but it really seems that it netdisappeared
CenturionSC2
Profile Joined November 2012
United States51 Posts
February 19 2013 07:37 GMT
#114
Seriously awesome read, a bit old but the general concepts are still applicable both to sc2 and I imagine bw =]
Gogo INnoVatioN and Flash Fightiiiiiing \m/ "(._.) ( l: ) ( .-. ) ( :l ) (._.) They see me rolling. They hating." EnumaAvalon
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
March 25 2013 22:38 GMT
#115
I really appreciate this guide(?). It has really made me understand a lot.
ok
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
March 26 2013 15:20 GMT
#116
Easy to agree since most of what i read is 100% right.
Ive coached a good amount of players in my days and my first step when players were noobs was telling them to watch pro reps and explain to me why they do what they do.
At the moment when they started to get the hang of it, they were ready to learn by themselves.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
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