[Q] TvP Scouting and BO

On September 14 2009 03:38 IdrA wrote:
just in general 2 base timing pushes arent very good unless you got an advantage early on. protosses have gotten their builds/macro clean enough that timing windows are very very small.
also 4 or 6 fac is almost always better than 5 fac.

99% of the time no. timing is generally more important and its gotten to the point where a 2 base timing push is practically an allin. you're not even gonna want to build an armory if you can avoid it, just because you need to get factories up as soon as possible.
but on some maps you can play a much more delayed 2 base timing push where you get a starport and drop harass while building up a much larger army off 2 base, when doing that you definitely want the +1 early, sometimes even waiting for 1/1 or +2 and attack right before 3 base arbiter kicks in.

you should be keeping track of their army movement with mines for the most part, when you send out vultures to harass lay mines all over the middle. if they clear those all then yes you need to use scans to watch for them, otherwise its fine to scan for obs but like i said you dont really want to spend on an armory/goliaths in most 2 base timing pushes so you might have trouble killing obs. also bring 3-4 scvs for turrets.
depends alot on the map setup. if their third is far away from the rest of their base then you definitely want to go for their original main, as if you send your whole army to their third theyll just counter and you'll die. if they have no gateways/units at their third just send a tank and a couple vultures to kill it while you're setting up a contain and slowly pushing towards their natural.
set up a siege/turret/mine line and take your own third, unless its really hard to defend, and go starport+armories and into a normal macro game. if it is really hard to defend then you just need to wait longer, add a starport and dropship harass.

most people will say timing push. dont. unless you got some kind of big advantage early, or the map has really short rush distances, there isnt actually a timing window. simply turtle and take your third base (off 4 fac or less) as quickly as you possible can. get vessels and 2 armory grades very fast, and mine/turret up your base. fantasy vs jangbi on chupung was perfect example of how to play vs this style.

watch flash and fantasy vods, their general styles are really the only solid ways to play tvp. you really shouldnt be using 2 base timing pushes as a standard. its fine to mix in, or use as a reaction to situations where you have a macro advantage, but in general its not good.

On November 03 2009 15:25 IdrA wrote:

thats all map dependent. on a map with both expos behind 1 defendable choke you can expand off 1 or 2 facs. on a map with a wide open 3rd youll probably want to wait till 4 fac. and situations like desti you can choose to 1 fac triple and sit with tanks on your ledges or go later expand and set up outside your base. also depends on who came out ahead on builds. if they went 2 gate obs and you went fac cc theyre not gonna be able to pump units while making a really fast 3rd nexus, so if you know theyre expanding again you can expand yourself without many units. but if they went 1 gate triple nex and you went fac cc theyre gonna be able to make a bunch of units so you have to turtle harder and hope they mess up.

if you're playing double expo you arent trying to challenge their third, you're playing for the long game so upgrades are more important.

playing a passive 6 fac like that is almost always really bad. very rarely on a map like chupung or desti you can use it to just get really solid center control and then play economic catchup, but normally you're just killing your economy for no real gain.

On May 23 2009 12:48 IdrA wrote:

andromedas double nex to the min only is an unusual situation, you can trap them up the ramp and siege everything from the low ground

if they do it on blue storm you can 2 fac with one proxied as well, though its not as strong.
but 99% of the time 2 fac is not a good counter.

On September 25 2007 08:26 IdrA wrote:

well for low level iccup games and stuff where i can expect to outplay my opponent even if i start behind in econ tvp i'll send 1-2 scvs around the map watching for proxies, play 1 fac cc but get ebay before cc(or right after) and generally at least 2 tanks before cc, get siege before cc if its a map without a ramp (like longinus, tau), generally wait for like 5 tanks to move down and take my expo, just producing scvs in base while i wait. get acad around same time as 2nd fac, pretty early. enough turrets in my main to feel safe, maybe 1-2 on perimeter and 1 by main cc, depending on base layout.

this is all assuming the scout scv in his base didnt see anything that lets you know what hes doing.

from that point, if i see that he 1 gate double expoed or something similar while i was playing scared i'll generally move out and take my 2nd expo and turtle/harass my way back into the macro game. if he does attempt some kind of attack i should be able to hold it because of the ultra-paranoid build, then a 5-6 fac timing push a few minutes later should finish it.

On November 27 2006 14:49 IdrA wrote:
no, luna tvp by far the best thing to do is to turtle, secure half the map and get a good fac count running then slowly move across the middle with a big tank wall, mining flanks and killing obs with gol+scan.

timing pushes and any other style are extremly vulnerable due to the open, unbuildable middle. a toss with good macro and a properly timed double expo can be invulnerable to any kind of timing attack if they dont make a mistake. you can try timing pushes and either hope your opponent is inferior or hope they make a mistake, but that is much less consistant, and anything that depends on your opponent screwing up rather than you doing something well is naturally unappealing.

On May 30 2006 20:26 IdrA wrote:
tvp its best by far to just turtle up, all the exps are easily defendable and close to each other. also attacking is dangerous because unless you catch him off guard and get set up the toss can usually use the terrain against you. (attacking from above the ramps n stuff) just set up with tanks/mines and take all the exps along your half of the map as soon as you can afford to safely. once you max with 2/2 or 3/3 grades or if you see him making carriers (and thus want to attack while hes weak, spending money/supply on carrs but not having them yet) push out, carefully, across the map.

tvz it sounds like you're just struggling with basic things like dealing with muta harass and lurks so theres probably non map specific problems there that nothing but practice will deal with.
however, fast expo is good (as it is in tvp) for muta harass just put 3-4 turrets in your nat minline, shouldnt be a big problem. if he has good micro and keeps picking off scvs leave a group or less of rines in the minline. pushing out against lurkers is really just micro and taking care to position yourself well in all cases. the cliffs do make it somewhat more dangerous but nothing that bad, if you dont have a vessel and want to conserve scans sacrifice a rine up the cliff or something to see where he is. otherwise just push normally. tank heavy builds(2 fac early) are good because you can abuse the center, siegeing on top of the ramps and around the center things in the terrain.

On April 17 2006 12:22 IdrA wrote:
most definetly theorycraft, i dont know about the math of it, how much each upgrade affects what, but anyone who has played a decent number of tvps or even watched a decent number of reps knows 3-3 metal is practically unstoppable without good arb or carrier useage.

On December 11 2008 23:21 IdrA wrote:
fd is a horrible, horrible build that should never ever ever be used
EVER
so fucking bad


seriously its like the worst of both builds. vulnerable to tech and freeloss to shuttles and a slow exp like 2 fac, and about as much killing power as siege exp.
how an aggressive build that can be defended by 1 gate range exp is considered viable blows my mind.

On February 01 2010 15:44 IdrA wrote:
strong fd is terrible, especially vs double nex

On January 28 2010 23:05 IdrA wrote:
the tvts are largely because theres more high level t's than p's around and in general it was a better bet to put your p's on heartbreak ridge or matchpoint. pvz balance might have somethin to do with it as well, i dunno how it works for that matchup. the map is not t>p by any means. ya you can secure 4 gasses 'easily' but 2 of them are 2500 and if you do anything at all defensive protoss has 7 bases.

the best way to play it is to scout for their expo timing, if you see 1 gate exp or 1 gate robo exp go fac cc fac and kill them.
if they dont get a relatively fast expand your fac cc should give you an economic advantage, assuming you dont die to reaver or dt, in which case you can go for a 5-6 fac timing push.

just going straight for a big 2 base timing push will get you run over if their expo was done same time or before yours was. if you get stuck in that situation but dont see it in time to punish it then you kind of just have to turtle and hope they fuck up. you'll have 4 gas for a short time so it is possible to get a bigass mech army, then if they blow a recall or an attack you can just make one big unstoppable push while taking 2 more expos.