On January 20 2010 14:19 knightpraetor wrote: i would say that you should play on bnet for 300 games like i did before you get on iccup. or at least till you can win a few games against the bnet peeps with their low apm and maphacks. However, in answer to the scouting question. I really don't think shift moving around the base is a good habit to build. I did that back when i was learning but the reality is that you waste more time picking spots to shift click in the base when you should be clicking once and then be back in your base building stuff. at first you will lose your scout every time but eventually you get better at it. Make it a point to always be looking at your scout if you have nothing to do back in the base..it will hopefully get you to check on it more frequently. Also, a good way to train is to play against two comps and use your worker to harass their workers, they will then send all their workers to chase your one worker. build your base as normal and fight the other comp. When you can win easily at this you will find it easier online as well.
Thanks, I will definitely use that advice on the scouting. For now I will just hot-key him and send the probe on its way into the base. When I am waiting on something I’ll check on him but all of my focus will be in getting a BO that is second nature to me.
Also, great tip on playing against two comps. Right now, I am playing against one but had the problem of all their workers attacking my probe so I just started mimicking the motion of scouting and just sending my probe to choke points instead. Your two comp method is much better.
On January 20 2010 17:18 Dabba wrote: so, how does one actually sign up and connect to iccup? is it like battlenet with games to host and join?
also was wondering if someone can suggest some BOs i can use as a beginer, preferably 3 for each protoss matchup. Like whats defensive? whats middle of the road? and which is offensive? id prob stick with middle of the road. I can also say i should learn my enemys bo right so i know what i should so with mine? or does it not matter right now? i mean do you guys just do your own BO and see what the enemy is doing then switch according to them or do you just stick with what you start? terrans easy enough to spot but zergs a little tougher for me. thanks guys
Since I kind of highjacked your thread a bit to ask about scouting I feel I should contribute as well. I haven’t seen your replay but I’m guessing we are on about the same level skill wise. My highest APM is in the 70’s and my average is in the low 40’s. But since I’m also in the same predicament in trying to learn and I also play your race let me tell you some things I’ve learned from here. Hopefully it will prove helpful since I can relate to your same struggles.
**Since I am a noob if anyone has any comments or disagreements with what I’ve written please point them out! But I do think this is sound advice.**
First you’ve heard the suggestions about using hotkeys. That’s great but what are some ideal setups? First listen to Day[9]’s podcasts on Mechanics. He has two, the first is just an introduction and the second goes into the basics and gives some recommended hotkey setups and keyboard finger placement:
(edit: oh crap, I noticed he just recently added the 3rd section so I am definitely going to go and check that out. For the past few months there were only the first two parts). Being a protoss player as well, this will definitely be something that takes some getting used to, and I struggled with it at first, but I am improving and I’m glad I stuck with it.
Now build orders, there is so much out there right? Where to start. Well right now I’m keeping it pretty basic. Luckily on youtube, HuskyStarcraft shows two great basic builds that will help get started:
Protoss vs Terran (and Protoss with some small modifications):
BUILD ORDER: (Number represents supply)
8. Pylon 10. Gateway 12. Gas 14. Cybernetics Core 15. Pylon 17. Dragoon 20. Dragoon Range 21. Dragoon 24. Pylon 25. Robotics Facility 26. Dragoon 30. Pylon 30. Gateway (make with same probe as pylon!) 31. Dragoon 34. Observatory 34. Pylon 35. Dragoon (x2) 40. Observer 42. Expand (Nexus)
42+. This is where you can break off into High Templars/Arbitor, 2+ more gateways, or Reaver.
This can also be modified to be Protoss vs Protoss. Just listen to his commentary while watching the video. But since this is a good basic beginners build, this is the one that I’m practicing with against both races, Terran and Protoss. As I get this down pat I will modify it where necessary but I need to become more comfortable with this.
Protoss vs. Zerg:
Here is where we will be using a build order called Fast Expansion. This is where things got a little uncomfortable for me because I was nervous about expanding so soon (won’t I be opening my self up defensively?). Be confident in it and trust these guys, they know how to prepare for the different scenarios. For now I am starting with the +1 Speedzeal FE build until I become more comfortable (this is copied from Liquidpedia):
BUILD ORDER:
-10 – Forge -@100% Forge - 2 Cannons -@400 minerals – Nexus -Two Nexuses pumping Probes (bring ~1/3 of your probes from your first Nexus to the second to help with minerals) -One Gateway (next to the Forge blocking the entrance to your Natural Expansion) -Assimilator at your main base -Cybernetics Core -Constant Zealots from your first Gateway. -@100 Gas - +1 Attack Upgrade at the Forge. -@100 Gas - Citadel of Adun. (hint: try to place it out of Overlord vision) -Add two more Gateways when you have 300 minerals at the same time after citadel -@100% Citadel - Zealot Legspeed. -Constant Zealots from all 3 Gateways. -@200 gas Templar Archives next 100 minerals to second assimalator -1 dt and 2 ht when Templar Archives is complete -add 2 gateways right before +1 is finished. you will have money since you will be starting High Templar next. -storm research with 200 gas following your ht building. -Robotics is not necessary until your Zealots run into Lurkers. -dragoon range after you start your first 5 dragoons. -following your High Templar is pure Dragoon/High Templar -take your third before Observers if possible if not wait until they are complete to clear Lurkers. -cut probes after your first 5 dragoons are out (1 full round) -after you put up your third throw up 3 more gateways for a total of 8.
Also, don’t forget to check into guide from the link azndsh posted earlier in this thread.
If anyone sees something that needs to be added or clarified, or if you have some basic replays to reference, it would be greatly appreciated. With all the wealth of great information here, it's sometimes like drinking water from a firehose and can be a bit overwhelming. Finally Dabba (or anyone else with skills similar to ours), if you ever want someone to play some games with, just send me a PM. Maybe we'd be able to help each other improve.
Just take a look at the two replays lazz provided in that thread and you will see how he handles the initial zerg rushes/pushes. That was one of the things that convinced me. I need to start watching more replays to learn more but more importantly I just have to get out there and play.
My bnet account might be inactive but I can create another one if you want to get some games in. Also, signing up for iccup is really easy as well. Either way, I'm game but probably won't get time to play until Fri-Sun.
This is actually a really good "getting started" thread, so congrats
fatty77's post above is really good. If you can follow those BO's you can usually get into the mid game safely. Then, it is pretty much just spending your money, and you will be able to win some games on iccup
For initial worker scouting, hotkey your worker to something really convenient (I use 1 and 2). Then, practice moving between your worker while trying to micro your probe. Obviously, in a real game you're probably better off focusing on your BO, but I think practicing worker micro vs 2x AI like suggested above is great. It isn't too hard to learn and protects you from lame rushes.
Hotkey things! If you have < 4 gateways, hotkey them 4-7. Put your two probe producing nexii on 9,0. Use 8 for gateways, robo, nexus as needed on situation. This makes it super easy to macro during a battle, and to check when units will be done so you can plan ahead to build the next round.
Attacking seige tanks with equal army on terran's terms is pretty much instalose, so that's why it is rough for new players. Your goals should be to have an extra expansion, and attack the terran on your terms (when he isn't seiged and doesn't have lots of mines). Put zealots in a shuttle, and unload the shuttle on itself (hotkey u). If the shuttle is already moving, you'll do a moving drop which is great for dropping 4 zealots upon a tank line (draws all the fire while your main army attacks).
If you have more questions/want me to watch replays/etc, feel free to message me on iccup (yoden-hf) or aim (yodenss). I'm only a c- level protoss, but I only started playing seriously in may (and took half the time since then off due to injury/life), so perhaps I can show you some of the stuff that helped me initially.
okay, heres a question which is party brought up by you hotkeying gateways and such. Whats the move effctive way to interact with ones army? i played a game with my friends before and lost more than i should have due to not moving my army well. Do you hotkey mutliple groups or what? Thanks man for the U drop tip
Protoss is called the 1a2a3a race for a reason =P Yeah you hotkey your units on 1 2 and 3, that way you can make sure some zealots run before the goons to clear mines, or goons draw tank fire so zealots can follow and make it all the way to the siege tanks before dying. But I'm a terran player, I only know what protoss do to make it harder for me, I don't really know the specifics of how they do it... I can guess though! it's 1a2a3a^^
Its hard when you have more than 3 control groups, esp when you have two arbs to escort them with. DO you hotkey the arbs too or just manually move them?
If arbiters are anything like science vessels I have them on 5. I don't see why you couldn't jsut queue the arbs with your groups though and manually select them for any spells you want. that way you don't run the risk of not having your arbiters when you'd like your units cloaked. Keep in mind that hotkeys don't have to be a static thing. In the beginning you may have 4 5 6 7 as gateways for easy production of units but in the lategame you might want to only have one gateway at your main as 6 and another batch as 7, that way you can hop to your base with 66, make a round of units and go back to look at the fighting with 11 (assuming group 1 is fighting). Either that or you can use F2-F4 to hotkey the locations of your gateways, but most players save F2-F4 for their mineral lines so they can quickly move probes away out of danger.
I agree that it's hard to hotkey all this stuff and do it more than once (since your units die), but if you keep doing it it'll become second nature. and it'll vastly improve your gameplay. I still have trouble with hotkeys (I tend to go back to my base with 66 even when I have all my factories on a seperate hotkey), and I can tell you that I often find myself thinking "damn I wish I could hotkey faster/better, then I'd be able to win this game".
I lost of course and its because im braindead slow at 38 APM. Its pretty discouraging and i dont know why im so slow. I'm awesome at FPS games like COD so id like to think i have pretty good reaction times and hand eye coordination. Pretty fed up
I lost of course and its because im braindead slow at 38 APM. Its pretty discouraging and i dont know why im so slow. I'm awesome at FPS games like COD so id like to think i have pretty good reaction times and hand eye coordination. Pretty fed up
if your apm is below 100, the most likely thing is not solely a matter of bad mechanics (which, of course will be the case) but also the fact that you don't really know what you're doing. good players tend to have higher apms because they're constantly thinking about the next 5 actions they're going to perform (well, and also the fact that it's now muscle memory for them). my guess is that you'll probably make a probe, then sit for half a second before you realize that you need to make a dragoon, and then another second later you realize that you needed to build another pylon 5 seconds ago. something that might help is attaching sticky notes to the side of your monitor, saying like "CHECK NEXUS" "CHECK GATEWAYS" "CYCLE THROUGH UNIT HOTKEYS" "SCOUT WITH PROBE" or something to that extent.
Yeah, its probably that. I kind of already got that sort of thing down with other games i guess, but im not new to SC, just this style. I won this game, and he had twice the APM, makes me feel better..
You don't use hotkeys at all, that's why you are slow. At least 10% of your apm should be using hotkeys. Your hotkey usage is like 1%. And 1% of 38 is a lot less than 10% of 120 apm. Exploit that keyboard. Force yourself to use all shortcuts and mass use hotkeys and F2 to F4.
Have a hotkey layout and decide what finger is best to use on each key as if you were a classically trained pianist. Then get the muscle memory down. You can practice this outside a game. That sounds a bit silly but since you are so new you will have to do it. It's like playing FPS with your left hand (if you are right handed) so you need to adapt first. 1a2a3a4a5a, building zealots and goons from 12 gateways in 1 second, resetting rally points, etc. You can all practice that in isolation.
Watch your last replay yourself and you'll see some of the things I'm talking about. In the beginning you actually did much better making probes fast (although you hit like every supply block out there^^; don't do that). Once there were a few things going on (2 gateways) you started forgetting to make probes again and they were all 3s too late. Then once you moved out you can just watch your minerals pile up without you producing anything. That's what I mean by not watching your units too much. Your mineral count should always stay low even when you're moving your units around, and your nexus should always be making probes, and you should never hit a supply cap. Still that game looked improved at least from an early production standpoint. The psi limits were bad though, if you had made pylons earlier you could've put up an expansion and a gateway I bet. Stuff like that really adds up and makes the possible seem completely impossible.
If you can, keep your eyes peeled on your mineral/psi count on the top right corner. that way you'll always know when to make pylons/units/buildings. Just have to make sure not to forget probes as well. Good players watch the minimap too but don't worry about that yet^^;
lol, do you want a practice partner? I'm not that good (D- on Iccup... yeah i fail x)) if you do want a practice partner PM me (: I play Terran,if you were wondering. (I can only play on weekdays though, and i usually use LAN. If you want me as a practice partner then i can send you the program im using to LAN my friends with me over the internet)
this makes me reminisce. back to D- days when i started out at 60 apm. just practice a lot. I agree with practicing hotkeys outside of the game. Back when i was playing my first 300 games on bnet before i transitioned to iccup i would spam 1a2a3a4a5d6d7d8d9z0z while waiting for the game list to appear; it helped a little as protoss i think; although i think the 1a2a3a4a part is more important than the rest..eventually you will have too many gateways to go back, but you still want to do that while in combat.
EPT
