• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:22
CEST 05:22
KST 12:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event10Serral wins EWC 202544Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple1SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away Serral wins EWC 2025 uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Global Tourney for College Students in September RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! StarCon Philadelphia BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 562 users

Hello, newbie questions and need help improving.. - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 19 2010 05:43 GMT
#21
b.os ? Haha thanks. I think i got my basic b/o. Lets see if i remember. I dont remember the supply count but its pretty much 2 or 3 probes, when i get 100 i get the pylon and then as soon as thats done i go with a gateway, followed closely by another. So i pretty much have 2 gate pretty early. From then on in i balance Lot production with getting core and gas to go goons depending on how aggressive the other player is:-\ From there its to citadel/robo and depending its reavers/obs and arbs is my normal plan.

Ill be honest i havnt tried one of these cookie cutter build orders (like forge FE etc) yet. I think my opening is variation of 2 gate right?
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-19 06:25:09
January 19 2010 06:24 GMT
#22
learn a different build order for each match-up... and there's a reason they're considered cookie-cutter: because they're better than anything you can come up with on my own.

for example:
PvP: 2gate goons -> robo
PvT: 1gate goons -> expo
PvZ: forge FE

with regards to your particular build order, 2gate zeals is not the most versatile build... it's terrible against terran on most maps since they can wall, making zealots are useless. 2gate is only good against protoss if you can do some damage because dragoons > zealots early game. 2gate is really a PvZ build, and nowadays it's fallen out of favor because zergs have gotten a lot better at defending against early aggression.
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 19 2010 11:35 GMT
#23
good to know, by my logic im rush paranoid so i like having a few lots to defend and if i find they're not rushing i will. ill def try some new BO. anything good against a walling terran? haha
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
January 19 2010 11:57 GMT
#24
vs Protoss, you get either 1 or 2 zealots before dragoons, sometimes if you're feeling risky none at all

check out Liquipedia if you haven't done so already
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_vs._Terran_Guide
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
January 19 2010 12:00 GMT
#25
On January 18 2010 23:14 LF9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2010 08:32 Sc1pio wrote:
move 6-8 probes from your main to your natural. This is called maynarding

No it's not. Seriously stop calling it that. It's getting really annoying.


Yes you do, tho "transfering" has started to being used more and more the last 1-2 years.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
fatty77
Profile Joined December 2009
United States41 Posts
January 19 2010 17:37 GMT
#26
On January 19 2010 14:05 azndsh wrote:
not messing up your BO is about 10x more important than keeping your scouting worker alive. Basically you have to get into the habit of going back every 2-3 seconds while keeping your BO in tact... just got to practice it a lot

Let me know if this helps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102726


Thanks a lot, the guide was really helpful. And although I was pretty familiar with the basics stated in the guide (and they are laid out very nicely), how to go about getting better along with the specific tips is what I found the most helpful for my skill level.

I've been playing the game off and on since it came out but not until last year did I really want to improve, and I finally resolved myself to finish the BW single player campaign. Still haven't done it yet, having some difficulty on the very last match, but I'm finally starting to study why I'm making mistakes and what I must do to get better. The resources at this play are fantastic, even if a little overwhelming at times.

For now I'm going to focus on learning 3 race specific BO's until I get them down pat along with the other goals stated in the guide. As much of a newbie as I am, I'm a pro compared to my friend, and I'm trying to get him up to speed as well. This guide will prove to be really valuable. Thanks.
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
6985 Posts
January 19 2010 17:57 GMT
#27
On January 19 2010 21:00 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2010 23:14 LF9 wrote:
On January 18 2010 08:32 Sc1pio wrote:
move 6-8 probes from your main to your natural. This is called maynarding

No it's not. Seriously stop calling it that. It's getting really annoying.


Yes you do, tho "transfering" has started to being used more and more the last 1-2 years.

It's a shame if newschool players forget the word "maynarding", the name comes from a foreign player who was among the first to popularize transfering.

Transfering as a word is so boring too. =[
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 20 2010 04:40 GMT
#28
what do you guys think of practicing on bnet? how does one get into iccup? prob alot harder for a newb right?
Jaxtyk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States600 Posts
January 20 2010 04:46 GMT
#29
ICCup = Smurfed "D" players who really are C ranks and like bashing new D players to the keyboard and mouse. I guess the only way for u to improve is to continue to play these guys and keep losing. Eventually ull win and ull have to repeat the process over and over again until u reach rank A.
To tell the truth....I could beat anyone in the world.
Nub4ever
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada1981 Posts
January 20 2010 04:49 GMT
#30
Sorry about the uhmm b.os I'm on my iPod >.< but i origionally kept playing fastest on b.net which gave me a bad habit of not expanding but yeh iCCup ur probably gonna lose like at least ur first 20 games.
Dota 3hard5me
knightpraetor
Profile Joined October 2008
United States180 Posts
January 20 2010 05:19 GMT
#31
i would say that you should play on bnet for 300 games like i did before you get on iccup. or at least till you can win a few games against the bnet peeps with their low apm and maphacks. However, in answer to the scouting question. I really don't think shift moving around the base is a good habit to build. I did that back when i was learning but the reality is that you waste more time picking spots to shift click in the base when you should be clicking once and then be back in your base building stuff. at first you will lose your scout every time but eventually you get better at it. Make it a point to always be looking at your scout if you have nothing to do back in the base..it will hopefully get you to check on it more frequently. Also, a good way to train is to play against two comps and use your worker to harass their workers, they will then send all their workers to chase your one worker. build your base as normal and fight the other comp. When you can win easily at this you will find it easier online as well.

Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 20 2010 06:06 GMT
#32
yeah so far ive only won 1v1 on bnet, was pvt, just rush him with lots and tok out half his scvs, then came back with lots/goons and he crumbled
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 20 2010 08:18 GMT
#33
so, how does one actually sign up and connect to iccup? is it like battlenet with games to host and join?

also was wondering if someone can suggest some BOs i can use as a beginer, preferably 3 for each protoss matchup. Like whats defensive? whats middle of the road? and which is offensive? id prob stick with middle of the road. I can also say i should learn my enemys bo right so i know what i should so with mine? or does it not matter right now? i mean do you guys just do your own BO and see what the enemy is doing then switch according to them or do you just stick with what you start? terrans easy enough to spot but zergs a little tougher for me. thanks guys
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42718 Posts
January 20 2010 10:39 GMT
#34
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/sc_start.html

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Silentness
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2821 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 10:54:00
January 20 2010 10:52 GMT
#35
On January 18 2010 16:18 Dabba wrote:
Alright guys. I tried some of your suggestions and i can see some improvement. I got a win over a terran, but he was worse than me which is a hard feat. I played my friend who plays terran twice, got raped both times. The first time with tanks, i was late getting the leg upgrade so that didnt help.

The second time i think i played pretty damn well, he just seems faster. I didnt watch the replay yet but the game was pretty much over. He lost his attacking/only force but left me with 2-3 goons and a drop took out all my probes at my main, so in the end i was more setback then him. I probably could have tried to recover but i wanted to get into another game and he would have rolled over me anyway.

Anyway.. take a look at my playing in this one and give me any pointers you have, i didnt watch it yet. I think my friends pretty damn good at toss, at least to me.

http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=29135 (Wow, he has twice the apm as i do..)


lol A Terran should have high APM and yes he had twice the APM.... but it was 78 LOL. 78 APM for a Terran player is really bad. Even 78 eAPM isn't enough.

If you come to Iccup it's going to be rough for you even at D level. So don't give up if you lose multiple times in a row.
GL HF... YOLO..lololollol.
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 20 2010 11:53 GMT
#36
haha i loose all the time on bnet right now so no biggie. haha thanks for the links, i knew about the wiki, ill check out iccuo
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 12:03:08
January 20 2010 11:55 GMT
#37
I've started playing 4 months ago and I've definitely improved so hopefully I can tell you what does and doesn't work.
Build Orders: Yes they're important and yes you should use a decent one, but frankly just pick one. I say that because a correct build order, no matter how perfectly you execute it won't help you win your games at this stage in time and it probably won't even improve your gameplay much.

The real reason you're losing like many have said is because you have less 60 actions per minute (APM). People will argue that APM doesn't mean much but there's a minimum number of actions you need to be able to perform per minute in order to be effective. At 42 APM for example it is impossible to make probes from two nexuses constantly while producing troops out of four gateways and if I had to guess as to why you're so slow:

1) don't click buttons but use the shortcut keys on your keyboard (p for probe). you're probably already doing that, just make sure you do it for everything

2) Use hotkeys and F-keys (this is a big one you're not doing). Most protoss hotkey their nexuses to 0 then the next one to 9, then 8 etc. It'll seem awkward at first but even if it seems like you're slower that way use them ALL the time to make probes. never select your nexus using the mouse. Eventually you'll just automatically zoom through 0p9p8p to make a probe at each nexus (and those 6 clicks can be done in 1s). You can also always keep track of if your nexuses are making probes (without having to scroll back to your base). I'll let you read up on hotkey setups for toss, suffice it to say you absolutely must use them, even if they'll feel uncomfortable for awhile.

3) Don't watch your fights. What I mean by that is that everyone, including me, has a tendency to watch their units fight against the big army, giving them instructions, telling zealots to run here, dragoons to attack there etc. Those are important things to do of course, and you may even win a battle because you controlled your units better but: let's say because you've controlled your units you win the fight with 4 zealots left over. If you hadn't controlled your units you would've lost and the terran would've had 3 tanks left. The point is that you didn't build anything during that fight because you were watching it. The terran in the meantime didn't watch the fight at all (or he hopped back to it every now and then to make sure nothing unexpected was happening) and he's been cranking stuff out of his factories.
So even though you won the fight with 4 zealots, 4 zealots is all you have. The terran lost the fight but he has 4 tanks and 12 vultures back in his base that can now continue to roll over you.

To say that more succinctly: if you look at your money count after there was a fight, and you notice it's up by 1000 or 2000 minerals then you were watching your units too much. For us beginners build order is secondary, keeping minerals low while ALWAYS making probes and units (which you can only do by using hotkeys) is the most important thing.

And just cause I haven't yapped on enough here's my pro tip to start you off: If you choose to play a LAN game against the computer you can start the game and kick the computer opponent during the 5s count down before the game starts. Do that (so that you can play a game without any opponent) and just go nuts on production, making sure you're never psi blocked and that your nexuses always make probes, and that you're always using your hotkey setup. Start with one nexus till 200 psi, then try again making an expansion, then again making 2 expansions.
I'm sitting at 100ish APM as terran and I know that terran at least needs a minimum of 80APM in order to keep production up off of 3 bases. 42APM simply won't cut it and you'll never win games until you fix that through practice.

End Rant^^

*edit* ok not quite end rant, one more thing: Make sure you have a decent mouse cursor speed. For one thing don't use mouse acceleration (or mouse precision enhancement or something in windows), and set your mouse at a decently slow speed. Someone mentioned that you should split up your workers on all 4 mineral patches at the start. If you can select each worker while they're moving and tell them to head to a different patch before they get to the minerals then you're golden. If you're mouse is so fast that you have a hard time selecting a moving unit, then turn it down. Day[9] has a decent...podcast?.. about how to adjust your mouse, hold your hands that kinda thing, look it up if you want more info^^
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-20 12:24:43
January 20 2010 12:23 GMT
#38
Awlright I watched the replay now so a few more things:
You're doing ok in the psi limit department (you hit psi limit a few times but it looks like you're at least trying to check every now and then), good job^^

Did someone tell you it's bad to queue up units? That's true usually, but when it comes to probes you should queue up the next probe before the first one pops out. Right now you have like a 3s interval in between a probe finishing and the next one starting and while that doesn't sound like much it's actually very big. Basically if you make every probe 3s slower than your opponent you auto-lose.
Also never stop making probes, ever. (unless you have some build order in mind in which you "cut probes" intentionally). You shouldn't have waited for 100 minerals for your first pylon but made a probe instead, same for the gateway, same for the first zealot. always keep probes being made, and when you happen to have 100 bucks plop down a pylon. if you don't, then keep making probes until you do.

As to playing on ICCUP: if you want to get started head to www.iccup.com , download their map pack and their launcher and you're set! At your level you'll get smoked by everyone, falling to the lowest of low levels but quite frankly I had 70 APM when I started ICCUP and I also got smoked by everyone. You learn stuff by losing all the time, you just have to decide if you're comfortable with that. Nobody will hate you for giving them an easy win^^ (be warned though that it's frustrating at times because alot of great players take pleasure in kicking us bad players's ass.. I'm talking 300APM people that shouldn't be playing at D rank).

And on a final note without trying to sound mean or stuck up: your terran friend, by iccup standards, is also absolutely lousy and would fall to lowest rank. (Pro tip for you, if he always goes marines like that build a reaver or a high templar =P), so my challenge to you is: practice until you beat that terran into the ground. That's a very attainable goal. If you just keep production up like I said he'll lose 100% of the time unless he wasn't being serious that game
Dabba
Profile Joined January 2010
United States182 Posts
January 20 2010 15:32 GMT
#39
i come closer if he plays toss, im just against terrans and seige tanks. thanks for all the awesome advice feefee. i know its bad to que up units but i do it because if i have extra money it alows me to produces units while i devote my attention elsewhere (like battles). i normally do it if i have extra cash but know my eco cant hold up any more gateways. or should i never do it? if i need to go back every one unit, thats a feat in mid-late game.
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
January 20 2010 15:43 GMT
#40
mm some people will tell you you should never queue but realistically if you expect to have to micro in a big fight, sure, queue up some units.
Protoss units however build very slowly and cost alot of money so I think you'll get alot better if you never queue much (probes being the exception). And you don't go back every one unit, you either have your gateways all on a hotkey (in the early game) or you go back and make a round of units out of all your gateways ( by the time those units finish building you'll have enough money for another full round). That means going back to your base, what, every 40 seconds at least? That you should definitely do. (zealots and goons take 40s to build)
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 38m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 181
NeuroSwarm 171
Livibee 96
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 250
Aegong 75
Noble 28
Bale 13
Icarus 9
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1125
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King358
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor140
Other Games
summit1g12950
tarik_tv8768
JimRising 631
WinterStarcraft434
ViBE188
Maynarde141
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1007
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH367
• Hupsaiya 100
• davetesta27
• practicex 15
• gosughost_ 14
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo882
Other Games
• Scarra1957
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
7h 38m
Wardi Open
11h 38m
RotterdaM Event
12h 38m
Replay Cast
20h 38m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 7h
RSL Revival
1d 13h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 20h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
Online Event
5 days
SC Evo League
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
SC Evo League
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.