EPTIll be honest i havnt tried one of these cookie cutter build orders (like forge FE etc) yet. I think my opening is variation of 2 gate right?
Hello, newbie questions and need help improving.. - Page 2
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
Ill be honest i havnt tried one of these cookie cutter build orders (like forge FE etc) yet. I think my opening is variation of 2 gate right? | ||
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
for example: PvP: 2gate goons -> robo PvT: 1gate goons -> expo PvZ: forge FE with regards to your particular build order, 2gate zeals is not the most versatile build... it's terrible against terran on most maps since they can wall, making zealots are useless. 2gate is only good against protoss if you can do some damage because dragoons > zealots early game. 2gate is really a PvZ build, and nowadays it's fallen out of favor because zergs have gotten a lot better at defending against early aggression. | ||
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
check out Liquipedia if you haven't done so already http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_vs._Terran_Guide | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 18 2010 23:14 LF9 wrote: No it's not. Seriously stop calling it that. It's getting really annoying. Yes you do, tho "transfering" has started to being used more and more the last 1-2 years. | ||
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fatty77
United States41 Posts
On January 19 2010 14:05 azndsh wrote: not messing up your BO is about 10x more important than keeping your scouting worker alive. Basically you have to get into the habit of going back every 2-3 seconds while keeping your BO in tact... just got to practice it a lot Let me know if this helps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102726 Thanks a lot, the guide was really helpful. And although I was pretty familiar with the basics stated in the guide (and they are laid out very nicely), how to go about getting better along with the specific tips is what I found the most helpful for my skill level. I've been playing the game off and on since it came out but not until last year did I really want to improve, and I finally resolved myself to finish the BW single player campaign. Still haven't done it yet, having some difficulty on the very last match, but I'm finally starting to study why I'm making mistakes and what I must do to get better. The resources at this play are fantastic, even if a little overwhelming at times. For now I'm going to focus on learning 3 race specific BO's until I get them down pat along with the other goals stated in the guide. As much of a newbie as I am, I'm a pro compared to my friend, and I'm trying to get him up to speed as well. This guide will prove to be really valuable. Thanks. | ||
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Puosu
7008 Posts
On January 19 2010 21:00 Zoler wrote: Yes you do, tho "transfering" has started to being used more and more the last 1-2 years. It's a shame if newschool players forget the word "maynarding", the name comes from a foreign player who was among the first to popularize transfering. Transfering as a word is so boring too. =[ | ||
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
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Jaxtyk
United States600 Posts
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
 but yeh iCCup ur probably gonna lose like at least ur first 20 games. | ||
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knightpraetor
United States180 Posts
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
also was wondering if someone can suggest some BOs i can use as a beginer, preferably 3 for each protoss matchup. Like whats defensive? whats middle of the road? and which is offensive? id prob stick with middle of the road. I can also say i should learn my enemys bo right so i know what i should so with mine? or does it not matter right now? i mean do you guys just do your own BO and see what the enemy is doing then switch according to them or do you just stick with what you start? terrans easy enough to spot but zergs a little tougher for me. thanks guys | ||
KwarK
United States43752 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/ | ||
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Silentness
United States2821 Posts
On January 18 2010 16:18 Dabba wrote: Alright guys. I tried some of your suggestions and i can see some improvement. I got a win over a terran, but he was worse than me which is a hard feat. I played my friend who plays terran twice, got raped both times. The first time with tanks, i was late getting the leg upgrade so that didnt help. The second time i think i played pretty damn well, he just seems faster. I didnt watch the replay yet but the game was pretty much over. He lost his attacking/only force but left me with 2-3 goons and a drop took out all my probes at my main, so in the end i was more setback then him. I probably could have tried to recover but i wanted to get into another game and he would have rolled over me anyway. Anyway.. take a look at my playing in this one and give me any pointers you have, i didnt watch it yet. I think my friends pretty damn good at toss, at least to me. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=29135 (Wow, he has twice the apm as i do..) lol A Terran should have high APM and yes he had twice the APM.... but it was 78 LOL. 78 APM for a Terran player is really bad. Even 78 eAPM isn't enough. If you come to Iccup it's going to be rough for you even at D level. So don't give up if you lose multiple times in a row. | ||
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
Build Orders: Yes they're important and yes you should use a decent one, but frankly just pick one. I say that because a correct build order, no matter how perfectly you execute it won't help you win your games at this stage in time and it probably won't even improve your gameplay much. The real reason you're losing like many have said is because you have less 60 actions per minute (APM). People will argue that APM doesn't mean much but there's a minimum number of actions you need to be able to perform per minute in order to be effective. At 42 APM for example it is impossible to make probes from two nexuses constantly while producing troops out of four gateways and if I had to guess as to why you're so slow: 1) don't click buttons but use the shortcut keys on your keyboard (p for probe). you're probably already doing that, just make sure you do it for everything 2) Use hotkeys and F-keys (this is a big one you're not doing). Most protoss hotkey their nexuses to 0 then the next one to 9, then 8 etc. It'll seem awkward at first but even if it seems like you're slower that way use them ALL the time to make probes. never select your nexus using the mouse. Eventually you'll just automatically zoom through 0p9p8p to make a probe at each nexus (and those 6 clicks can be done in 1s). You can also always keep track of if your nexuses are making probes (without having to scroll back to your base). I'll let you read up on hotkey setups for toss, suffice it to say you absolutely must use them, even if they'll feel uncomfortable for awhile. 3) Don't watch your fights. What I mean by that is that everyone, including me, has a tendency to watch their units fight against the big army, giving them instructions, telling zealots to run here, dragoons to attack there etc. Those are important things to do of course, and you may even win a battle because you controlled your units better but: let's say because you've controlled your units you win the fight with 4 zealots left over. If you hadn't controlled your units you would've lost and the terran would've had 3 tanks left. The point is that you didn't build anything during that fight because you were watching it. The terran in the meantime didn't watch the fight at all (or he hopped back to it every now and then to make sure nothing unexpected was happening) and he's been cranking stuff out of his factories. So even though you won the fight with 4 zealots, 4 zealots is all you have. The terran lost the fight but he has 4 tanks and 12 vultures back in his base that can now continue to roll over you. To say that more succinctly: if you look at your money count after there was a fight, and you notice it's up by 1000 or 2000 minerals then you were watching your units too much. For us beginners build order is secondary, keeping minerals low while ALWAYS making probes and units (which you can only do by using hotkeys) is the most important thing. And just cause I haven't yapped on enough here's my pro tip to start you off: If you choose to play a LAN game against the computer you can start the game and kick the computer opponent during the 5s count down before the game starts. Do that (so that you can play a game without any opponent) and just go nuts on production, making sure you're never psi blocked and that your nexuses always make probes, and that you're always using your hotkey setup. Start with one nexus till 200 psi, then try again making an expansion, then again making 2 expansions. I'm sitting at 100ish APM as terran and I know that terran at least needs a minimum of 80APM in order to keep production up off of 3 bases. 42APM simply won't cut it and you'll never win games until you fix that through practice. End Rant^^ *edit* ok not quite end rant, one more thing: Make sure you have a decent mouse cursor speed. For one thing don't use mouse acceleration (or mouse precision enhancement or something in windows), and set your mouse at a decently slow speed. Someone mentioned that you should split up your workers on all 4 mineral patches at the start. If you can select each worker while they're moving and tell them to head to a different patch before they get to the minerals then you're golden. If you're mouse is so fast that you have a hard time selecting a moving unit, then turn it down. Day[9] has a decent...podcast?.. about how to adjust your mouse, hold your hands that kinda thing, look it up if you want more info^^ | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
You're doing ok in the psi limit department (you hit psi limit a few times but it looks like you're at least trying to check every now and then), good job^^ Did someone tell you it's bad to queue up units? That's true usually, but when it comes to probes you should queue up the next probe before the first one pops out. Right now you have like a 3s interval in between a probe finishing and the next one starting and while that doesn't sound like much it's actually very big. Basically if you make every probe 3s slower than your opponent you auto-lose. Also never stop making probes, ever. (unless you have some build order in mind in which you "cut probes" intentionally). You shouldn't have waited for 100 minerals for your first pylon but made a probe instead, same for the gateway, same for the first zealot. always keep probes being made, and when you happen to have 100 bucks plop down a pylon. if you don't, then keep making probes until you do. As to playing on ICCUP: if you want to get started head to www.iccup.com , download their map pack and their launcher and you're set! At your level you'll get smoked by everyone, falling to the lowest of low levels but quite frankly I had 70 APM when I started ICCUP and I also got smoked by everyone. You learn stuff by losing all the time, you just have to decide if you're comfortable with that. Nobody will hate you for giving them an easy win^^ (be warned though that it's frustrating at times because alot of great players take pleasure in kicking us bad players's ass.. I'm talking 300APM people that shouldn't be playing at D rank). And on a final note without trying to sound mean or stuck up: your terran friend, by iccup standards, is also absolutely lousy and would fall to lowest rank. (Pro tip for you, if he always goes marines like that build a reaver or a high templar =P), so my challenge to you is: practice until you beat that terran into the ground. That's a very attainable goal. If you just keep production up like I said he'll lose 100% of the time unless he wasn't being serious that game | ||
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Dabba
United States182 Posts
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
Protoss units however build very slowly and cost alot of money so I think you'll get alot better if you never queue much (probes being the exception). And you don't go back every one unit, you either have your gateways all on a hotkey (in the early game) or you go back and make a round of units out of all your gateways ( by the time those units finish building you'll have enough money for another full round). That means going back to your base, what, every 40 seconds at least? That you should definitely do. (zealots and goons take 40s to build) | ||
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