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thread cancelled. impossible to have this discussion here apparently.
I made this thread so that people could discuss what the best options would be for adjusting balance towards P over Z, without breaking anything. It was meant to be a separate discussion from whether PvZ is imba, which already exists in another thread, which I linked. I tried to say this, I tried to direct people to that. But they just kept on coming here and discussing that and insulting everybody...
So, no point. Trolls/flamers win, destroy this thread, don't let us have this discussion because you disagree with us. :/
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"It's so funny watching the level of posting deteriorate so rapidly..."
For instance: "Helping Storm become dangerous again..."
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Just buff Protoss players, nothing more needed
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Why don't the protoss players just practice more?
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Give archons double range (4). Won't affect PvT almost at all, and even in PvZ the only really serious impact it would probably have would be making it much much more dangerous vs. stacked muta, which are the thing "breaking" the match-up right now.
edit: on secound thought 4 might be a bit more, maybe 3?
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Protoss players cry too much. Stop it. PvZ is not imbalanced
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If you want to change PvZ balance only, it stands to reason to only change units which are not frequently used in any other matchup. So tweaking things like zealots, hydras and mutas should be eliminated immediately. Storm is used all the time to devastating effect in PvT and PvP too, so I'd hesitate to change it.
So where does that leave us:
boost DA: this is definitely the most promising avenue, since it is hard to imagine the unit being used in other matchups frequently and has the potential for more interesting games. Tons of possible options here, like increase starting energy, come with maelstrom researched by default, reduce energy requires for maelstrom, increase duration of maelstrom, etc. It would be really cool to see a boost to queens, DAs, and ghosts simultaneously so that every race gets something.
boost corsair: only used in PvZ, so it is also a good candidate. you could reduce cost and/or build time, to get scouting info sooner.
boost obs: making observers take 2 scourge to kill instead of 1 would significantly affect the matchup. Has PvT implications, I admit.
reaver AI: if this can be fixed, good. terrans will have to deal with it.
Mucking with cannons is dangerous, since they are used at all stages of the game in PvZ, and you run the danger of making them too powerful for expo defense later on in the game. It sounds to me like you're proposing trying all those changes at once, too, which seems like a bad idea
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can't you guys just take the premise of the post and have some fun? I don't necessarily think that PvZ is imbalanced, but as the OP said, that isn't the point of this thread.
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Reaver ai was originally way better. They changed it after players got really good with shuttle micro. High templar moving faster would probably be the only real change that you could make. (HT movement speed has no effect on pvt thanks to shuttles, and would almost never matter in pvp).
Storm's nerf is pretty fine, but it feels like the Zerg players don't really understand what the difference is, it's not particularly harder to dodge, but it kills lurkers in one storm instead of 2 (doing 13 more DOT is not going to matter to hydralisks).
Dark archons do have one change that should happen though, currently the +50 energy upgrade has no real effect on them because it doesn't increase their initial starting energy to 62.5 from 50, it's still 50 and they are the only unit that's like that.
Oh, and I thought archons already had 3 range? I know that it's only one less than the mutalisk. Anyways, archons difficulty with mutas is not because of their range really, it's more because they're very large and can't move in an army or base very well. Giving them 4 range would just make it impossible to micro against them but wouldn't really help with muta sniping.
Pvz is definitely imbalanced at the pro level and has been since at least may/june. It's probably due to maps though, not inherent game balances.
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On December 21 2009 05:50 nodule wrote:
If you want to change PvZ balance only, it stands to reason to only change units which are not frequently used in any other matchup. So tweaking things like zealots, hydras and mutas should be eliminated immediately. Storm is used all the time to devastating effect in PvT and PvP too, so I'd hesitate to change it.
So where does that leave us:
boost DA: this is definitely the most promising avenue, since it is hard to imagine the unit being used in other matchups frequently and has the potential for more interesting games. Tons of possible options here, like increase starting energy, come with maelstrom researched by default, reduce energy requires for maelstrom, increase duration of maelstrom, etc. It would be really cool to see a boost to queens, DAs, and ghosts simultaneously so that every race gets something.
boost corsair: only used in PvZ, so it is also a good candidate. you could reduce cost and/or build time, to get scouting info sooner.
boost obs: making observers take 2 scourge to kill instead of 1 would significantly affect the matchup. Has PvT implications, I admit.
reaver AI: if this can be fixed, good. terrans will have to deal with it.
Mucking with cannons is dangerous, since they are used at all stages of the game in PvZ, and you run the danger of making them too powerful for expo defense later on in the game. It sounds to me like you're proposing trying all those changes at once, too, which seems like a bad idea
if reaver AI is fixed youll have to elaborate on that. For example if it never missed reaver would be retardedly imbalanced in all mu's, PvP would be brutal
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Reavers should like never misses if its short ranged but it should lose damage that it can do as the bulb flies out. Like for each range, it loses a certain percentage or something.
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On December 21 2009 05:30 EvoChamber wrote:
PvZ is not imbalanced.
TRUE
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This is the strategy forum, not the forum to advertise your own personal balance changes that not only are bad in the first place and coming from probably a D- iccup player with no idea of balance, but will never happen.
You point out balance changes and then do not even bother to theorycraft how intensely they'd affect the match-up or build orders or other areas of the game. This game is 10 years old, the only balance changes anyone are ever going to agree with you or theorycraft with you on are minor ones you mentioned like nrg changes to the DA. All the other ones are already balanced and tested in the last 10 years of gaming...
Blizzard already messed around with zealot/dragoon shields/HP, as well as storm damage and the others you mentioned.
you know storm damage was changed so that you can't just 1 shot lurkers with a storm otherwise no obs were needed...
oh, and finally, PvZ is not imbalanced. Your post is seeming to make a complete definitive statement that it is, when it currently is not.
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17010 Posts
On December 21 2009 06:17 Xiphos wrote:
Reavers should like never misses if its short ranged but it should lose damage that it can do as the bulb flies out. Like for each range, it loses a certain percentage or something.
Are you kidding? :/
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scouts with the upgs researched by default
/thread
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Wait...I thought both Archons and Mutalisks had 3 range...
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I dunno if anyone here plays any of the recent cnc games, from cnc3tw, cnc3kw, or ra3, but balance was always heavily discussed on the forums, and I can tell you that especially at the start of ra3, so many soviet players complained that allies were imba and such when really...
all the soviet player sucked.
that's right, all of the "good" soviet players literally sucked at the game at top level. It just happened that most of the good players were allies players. It's a bit the same way here imo, a lot of the current top protoss progamers...are simply not at the level of the top Zergs.
of course maps also factor into this as well, but Protoss is slacking in general.
as Starcraft players, we are all very spoiled at just how damn balanced Starcraft really is. If you play other RTS like cnc/dow/aoe then you know this 
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EPT
