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On December 21 2009 08:55 SuperJongMan wrote:
This thread is one of the most disgusting threads I've seen in forever.
I second that.
There is no discussion as pointless as race balance in Starcraft.
I am a Protoss player, and I never felt ZvP was unfair for Protoss.
Of course, sometimes I will lose to an inferior Zerg player, but most of the games I lose vs Zergs were not because of the race but because of the opponent was the better player.
Perhaps, historically protoss havent dominated the pro scene, and maybe we are the inferior race.
Right now, there are 12 Terrans, 11 Zergs, 7 Protoss in the KeSPA ranking.
Nonetheless, even if Protoss is the weakest race, it is not by much, or not considerably much.
Nothing really prevents Protoss from winning, or dominating a series. There are no bullet proof ways to consistently beat a Protoss opponent. So why is there to complain about?
I am sure most people complaining are just really bad players who got owned by some all in cheese, like 3 hatch hydras vs FE. But no matter what happened, you can always counter any Zerg build.
What is the real problem finally? What makes PvZ so imbalanced to you?
If any change was to be made, in my useless and pointless opinion would be in scout unit. It should have it's speed upgrade researched by default. Useless, but nothing would be done anyway, and it would be almost impossible to improve protoss vs Z, without making PvT even easier.
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oh and what's with all these new protoss players popping out of nowhere whining about PvZ imba
if anyone wants to argue statistics, I took the ZvP samples from all the maps of the current season (fighting spirit, match point, neo moon glaive, neo HBR, neo tornado, outsider SE, odd-eye, ultimatum, el nino, eye of the storm, HBR, moon glaive, tornado and outsider) and added them up.
ZvP
11-9 on FS
9-8 on match point
1-1 on neo moon glaive
3-4 on neo HBR
0-0 on neo tornado
9-8 on outsider SE
0-2 on odd-eye
1-2 on ultimatum
7-2 on el nino (imba map)
5-6 on eye of the storm
35-32 on HBR
2-1 on moon glaive
4-0 on tornado (possibly imba)
13-11 on outsider
TOTAL: 100-86 (53.76%)
If we disregard El Nino which is obviously imbalanced we get 93-84 which is 52.54%. Disregard tornado as well it's 89-84 or 51.45%.
Those stats look pretty damn balanced to me, unless some idiot like Traveler or old times sake think that's incredibly imba?
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Perhaps, historically protoss havent dominated the pro scene...
...umm im pretty sure zerg and terrans were historically dominating ones if i'm not wrong??
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On December 21 2009 10:52 heroyi wrote:...umm im pretty sure zerg and terrans were historically dominating ones if im not wrong??
That's exactly what he said?
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On December 21 2009 10:54 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 10:52 heroyi wrote:
Perhaps, historically protoss havent dominated the pro scene...
...umm im pretty sure zerg and terrans were historically dominating ones if im not wrong?? That's exactly what he said?
whoops my bad, have"nt" didnt register
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On December 21 2009 06:41 xMiragex wrote:
scouts with the upgs researched by default
/thread
this.
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On December 21 2009 10:52 writer22816 wrote:
oh and what's with all these new protoss players popping out of nowhere whining about PvZ imba
if anyone wants to argue statistics, I took the ZvP samples from all the maps of the current season (fighting spirit, match point, neo moon glaive, neo HBR, neo tornado, outsider SE, odd-eye, ultimatum, el nino, eye of the storm, HBR, moon glaive, tornado and outsider) and added them up.
ZvP
11-9 on FS
9-8 on match point
1-1 on neo moon glaive
3-4 on neo HBR
0-0 on neo tornado
9-8 on outsider SE
0-2 on odd-eye
1-2 on ultimatum
7-2 on el nino (imba map)
5-6 on eye of the storm
35-32 on HBR
2-1 on moon glaive
4-0 on tornado (possibly imba)
13-11 on outsider
TOTAL: 100-86 (53.76%)
If we disregard El Nino which is obviously imbalanced we get 93-84 which is 52.54%. Disregard tornado as well it's 89-84 or 51.45%.
Those stats look pretty damn balanced to me, unless some idiot like Traveler or old times sake think that's incredibly imba?
Okay so you can come to a thread and start a specifically defined off-topic already-existing flamewar LINKED IN THE OP and call the OP an "idiot", but ... yeah. BTW people disagree with what you wrote there, but you posted to the wrong thread ... GJ BTW. Hey show me one place where I said I think P>Z in pro gaming history due to statistical evidence? One place? One little quote? Show me please. Oh wait, you can't, but thanks for the high-quality output.
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On December 21 2009 11:04 old times sake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 10:52 writer22816 wrote:
oh and what's with all these new protoss players popping out of nowhere whining about PvZ imba
if anyone wants to argue statistics, I took the ZvP samples from all the maps of the current season (fighting spirit, match point, neo moon glaive, neo HBR, neo tornado, outsider SE, odd-eye, ultimatum, el nino, eye of the storm, HBR, moon glaive, tornado and outsider) and added them up.
ZvP
11-9 on FS
9-8 on match point
1-1 on neo moon glaive
3-4 on neo HBR
0-0 on neo tornado
9-8 on outsider SE
0-2 on odd-eye
1-2 on ultimatum
7-2 on el nino (imba map)
5-6 on eye of the storm
35-32 on HBR
2-1 on moon glaive
4-0 on tornado (possibly imba)
13-11 on outsider
TOTAL: 100-86 (53.76%)
If we disregard El Nino which is obviously imbalanced we get 93-84 which is 52.54%. Disregard tornado as well it's 89-84 or 51.45%.
Those stats look pretty damn balanced to me, unless some idiot like Traveler or old times sake think that's incredibly imba? Okay so you can come to a thread and start a specifically defined off-topic already-existing flamewar LINKED IN THE OP and call the OP an "idiot", but ... yeah. BTW people disagree with what you wrote there, but you posted to the wrong thread ... GJ BTW. Hey show me one place where I said I think P>Z in pro gaming history due to statistical evidence? One place? One little quote? Show me please. Oh wait, you can't, but thanks for the high-quality output.
Oh, so just because toss progamers can't beat zerg progamers you need to make a huge topic here suggesting mostly changes that would affect other matchups so that FINALLY protoss will be the best race to play? In warcraft3 some of the top orc players are like, 70%+ over undead while only the best of the best undead players could barely manage over 50%+, so what are all the undead players supposed to do, vent on forums and cry for changes like you and hope that blizzard will do something about it?
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I like the idea about improving the reaver, as boxer himself said the reaver has gotten dumb and it should be brought back to what it was in a previous patch.... 1.8 i think... im not sure though.
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On December 21 2009 11:04 old times sake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 10:52 writer22816 wrote:
oh and what's with all these new protoss players popping out of nowhere whining about PvZ imba
if anyone wants to argue statistics, I took the ZvP samples from all the maps of the current season (fighting spirit, match point, neo moon glaive, neo HBR, neo tornado, outsider SE, odd-eye, ultimatum, el nino, eye of the storm, HBR, moon glaive, tornado and outsider) and added them up.
ZvP
11-9 on FS
9-8 on match point
1-1 on neo moon glaive
3-4 on neo HBR
0-0 on neo tornado
9-8 on outsider SE
0-2 on odd-eye
1-2 on ultimatum
7-2 on el nino (imba map)
5-6 on eye of the storm
35-32 on HBR
2-1 on moon glaive
4-0 on tornado (possibly imba)
13-11 on outsider
TOTAL: 100-86 (53.76%)
If we disregard El Nino which is obviously imbalanced we get 93-84 which is 52.54%. Disregard tornado as well it's 89-84 or 51.45%.
Those stats look pretty damn balanced to me, unless some idiot like Traveler or old times sake think that's incredibly imba? BTW people disagree with what you wrote there, but you posted to the wrong thread ... GJ BTW. Hey show me one place where I said I think P>Z in pro gaming history due to statistical evidence? One place? One little quote? Show me please. Oh wait, you can't, but thanks for the high-quality output.
OK first of all you're arguing that PvZ is imba based on random arbitrary evidence pulled out of your ass. If you actually read your own thread you'd realize that a lot of people disagree with you and for good reason. Anyways you go on to discuss how might we improve the PvZ "imbalance" which may or may not even exist and anyone who disagrees should go to the other thread because OMG I DON'T WANT TO HEAR I'M WRONG THIS THREAD SHOULD ONLY BE ABOUT AGREEING WITH ME AND DISCUSSING HOW PVZ SHOULD BE CHANGED EVEN THOUGH I HAVEN'T EVEN PROVED THAT THE IMBALANCE EXISTS AND THAT THIS THREAD MIGHT NOT EVEN BE NEEDED.
You just want positive feedback from people who agree with you and can't accept that your idea might be flawed to begin with.
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pool cost: 200 -> 150
lurker research: 200/200 -> 125/125
zealot 60/100 -> 80/80
sunken colony hit points 300 -> 400
there
all balanced
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States47024 Posts
Never mind the strategy of it, some of those ideas just sound ridiculous in relation to the fluff. Double Archon range? How the hell does an Archon that blasts as far as a marine, hydra, or dragoon make ANY sense?
What's more, trying to "fix" balance in one matchup is silly. The game has historically been acknowledged to be P > T > Z > P. Fixing just PvZ would turn it into P > T > Z = P, which makes the overall skew in protoss's favor, not balanced.
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On December 21 2009 10:52 writer22816 wrote:
oh and what's with all these new protoss players popping out of nowhere whining about PvZ imba
if anyone wants to argue statistics, I took the ZvP samples from all the maps of the current season (fighting spirit, match point, neo moon glaive, neo HBR, neo tornado, outsider SE, odd-eye, ultimatum, el nino, eye of the storm, HBR, moon glaive, tornado and outsider) and added them up.
ZvP
11-9 on FS
9-8 on match point
1-1 on neo moon glaive
3-4 on neo HBR
0-0 on neo tornado
9-8 on outsider SE
0-2 on odd-eye
1-2 on ultimatum
7-2 on el nino (imba map)
5-6 on eye of the storm
35-32 on HBR
2-1 on moon glaive
4-0 on tornado (possibly imba)
13-11 on outsider
TOTAL: 100-86 (53.76%)
If we disregard El Nino which is obviously imbalanced we get 93-84 which is 52.54%. Disregard tornado as well it's 89-84 or 51.45%.
Those stats look pretty damn balanced to me, unless some idiot like Traveler or old times sake think that's incredibly imba?
Haha, thank you for proving my point I was wondering if I was going to have to go looking for those.
Anyways map making is obviously closin the difference, so we should be discussing map elements instead of getting Blizzard to be changing the races themselves.
I am incredibly hurt by you calling me an idiot though, I think I shall go find my "inferior" corner to cry in (lol)
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On December 21 2009 07:47 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 07:40 resonance wrote:
I'm so sick of hearing this imbalance thing. Zergs are doing well again and protoss are like "wtf man, this shit is imbalanced".
No it's not.
Let's look back only 9 or so months ago. What was that period called...iirc..."The Golden Age of Protoss"? "Reign of Protoss"? Something like that yes? Where protoss was destroying absolutely everything. When ZvP was frigging ridiculously hard for zergs. Oh yeah when it was I believe 4 protoss in semi-finals MSL. Oh yeah what happened there? I guess playing protoss wasn't imbalanced then.
Just because there is a fluctuation in overall winning in the moment it does not mean the matchup is imbalanced. You can argue every mu is slightly imbalanced (notably TvP and ZvT). Funny thing is that ALL races have one matchup that people complain is imbalanced (if you aren't getting it: PvZ, TvP, and ZvT). So what is the point of discussing imbalance for one of these matchups? What is this going to prove? If you don't like the game then don't frigging play it (or switch races at least so you can complain about some other match-up). Blizzard ain't going to change this game anymore, not with sc2 coming up.
Seriously, enough already. Only a few protoss players actually did well during the golden age of protoss. Right now ALL zergs are doing well. PvZ was still overall balanced during that time.
ALL zergs are doing well right now? Let's look at the top 12 zergs by ELO (past 10 zvp)
Jaedong: 7-3
Calm: 8-2
Effort: 10-0
Zero: 7-3
Kwanro: 8-2
-------------------
Luxury: 4-6
815-: 5-5
Shine: 5-5
July: 6-4
Hero: 6-4
yarnc: 5-5
type-b: 5-5
So we have 5 zergs who are having great success against protoss, and then the rest of the pack is pretty balanced. This looks EXACTLY like what was happening during the golden age of protoss, when you had 6 tosses wrecking zerg's shit.
On December 21 2009 08:07 old times sake wrote:
17 people who try to ruin this thread and change the subject while baiting/flaming/sarcasm/etc. When the OP specifically shows you that this thread isn't for that and another one, linked, already is...
What if I made a thread called There are too many jews in the world, discuss and then wrote in the OP not to flame me and to discuss specifically the topic I have brought up? People wouldn't have fucking a philosophical discussion on whether or not there are too many jews, they'd tell me there shouldn't be a discussion in the first place.
How can you have a rational discussion on about something that isn't broken?
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I love how the OP thought that writing "THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO FLAME ME FOR MY DUMB IDEAS" in the first post was going to stop him from being flamed for having dumb ideas.
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Proving your point? Those stats makes the matchup seem pretty balanced i would say.
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This thread is informative! Let's discuss pies. I like pumpkin pies personally, but I also favor apple pies because of the difference in temperature causes nice sensations in my mouth.
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OP is doing the stupid 13 year old bullshit of assuming he's the smartest fucker in existence and continuing to argue over his point again and again even though he's already long realized that he's wrong, simply because he doesn't want us all to realize it either (which is a moot point because we already have)
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no changes are needed to the game. zvp is imbalanced but only to a fault which could be fixed via maps. Changing anything unit wise will just screw the other mu's
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On December 21 2009 13:00 ghermination wrote:
OP is doing the stupid 13 year old bullshit of assuming he's the smartest fucker in existence and continuing to argue over his point again and again even though he's already long realized that he's wrong, simply because he doesn't want us all to realize it either (which is a moot point because we already have)
I think the OP forgot to skate.
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EPT
