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United States1080 Posts
On July 05 2009 02:59 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 00:50 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 05 2009 00:15 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:
Pretty sure when Nony played F91, it was a similar situation. Nony had advantage, but he wasn't outside F91's base or anything, he was mostly at his base defending and making his third vs F91 3 bases, yet Nony was given the win. Same situation here. IMO, everyone is just going where the wind blows. If Artosis were to say that Strelok was surely going to push out and win, everyone would be like "yeah, yeah." F91 gave me the win About the Strelok/Fenix game: I think the key thing there is that Strelok would only have a big advantage if he was in position. He can't just move all his shit down and siege up. If there was a push going, then it would seem that Terran would have a good chance to hit his timing. But what we see in the replay is a Protoss with a great chance to defend his half of the map long enough to let Arbiter tech kick in and finish off a Terran whose timing failed. Strelok could have pushed any second after the disconnect (if the disconnect didn't happen). He said he was waiting for 180 supply to push, and Arbiter had no energy for anything, only 2 high temps, and maybe 160 supply (he needs a maxed army stop the push) for Fenix when Strelok starts pushing. Fenix's bases at 7 and 8 o'clock (which wasn't even mining) would have been taken out, Strelok's reinforcement from his 6 factories would have ended it. Replaying the game would not be fair because they are fighting for $1000, and Strelok shouldn't have to beat Fenix one more time just because Fenix disconnected. And the guy had had a history of fucking around in tournaments with large prizes, like TSL, as Artosis himself pointed out. Strelok decided to leave the tournament in protest of the unprofessional conduct of the tournament officials. I haven't heard Tasteless, Daniel, Lipton or anyone else from the tournament step up and admit fault, everyone is just trying to ignore SDM final decision.
Cloaking from the arbiter would've been enough with some storms. I don't think anyone is arguing that strelok had the upper hand but it didn't look like enough to seal the deal. I think if Idra or Nony say that strelok didn't have a decisive advantage that it's probably pretty likely they're right.
Artosis also helped out Fenix in this situation when it appears that Fenix had less support than Strelok did according to the video despite this past disconnect thing, if he can see past that in the name of fairness why can't you? It's the norm to replay games when some one disconnects in most tournaments as far as I know. It's too bad strelok didn't just suck it up and continue on, very disappointing attitude.
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On July 05 2009 01:00 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2009 20:46 Strelok. wrote:
So now according to precendent rule, after having disadvantage which is not critical, i can always disc from game and claim regame. Let's see how it works. yeah i guess you could but then some self-important asshole like me might come around and make sure you are banned from all sc1 and sc2 competitions wouldn't that be awesome
np and yea it would be both tragic and hilarious to see the drama unfold.
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On July 05 2009 02:59 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 00:50 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 05 2009 00:15 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:
Pretty sure when Nony played F91, it was a similar situation. Nony had advantage, but he wasn't outside F91's base or anything, he was mostly at his base defending and making his third vs F91 3 bases, yet Nony was given the win. Same situation here. IMO, everyone is just going where the wind blows. If Artosis were to say that Strelok was surely going to push out and win, everyone would be like "yeah, yeah." F91 gave me the win About the Strelok/Fenix game: I think the key thing there is that Strelok would only have a big advantage if he was in position. He can't just move all his shit down and siege up. If there was a push going, then it would seem that Terran would have a good chance to hit his timing. But what we see in the replay is a Protoss with a great chance to defend his half of the map long enough to let Arbiter tech kick in and finish off a Terran whose timing failed. Strelok could have pushed any second after the disconnect (if the disconnect didn't happen). He said he was waiting for 180 supply to push, and Arbiter had no energy for anything, only 2 high temps, and maybe 160 supply (he needs a maxed army stop the push) for Fenix when Strelok starts pushing. Fenix's bases at 7 and 8 o'clock (which wasn't even mining) would have been taken out, Strelok's reinforcement from his 6 factories would have ended it.
Regardless of how things may likely turn out, the fact is Strelok still had to actually make his push. And SOOO many things can go wrong when he does. It's hardly uncommon for a terran to push in an advantageous position and still get its army killed due to mistakes. We're not talking about Tanks sieged up safely at the natural and the expansions here, where Fenix can hand the controls over to Stork or Bisu, who still would've lost.
Replaying the game would not be fair because they are fighting for $1000, and Strelok shouldn't have to beat Fenix one more time just because Fenix disconnected. And the guy had had a history of fucking around in tournaments with large prizes, like TSL, as Artosis himself pointed out. Strelok decided to leave the tournament in protest of the unprofessional conduct of the tournament officials. I haven't heard Tasteless, Daniel, Lipton or anyone else from the tournament step up and admit fault, everyone is just trying to ignore SDM final decision
Then Strelok should've mentioned something beforehand. Most notably before the tournament. But at least before the match. If Fenix is known to be a cheater who disconnects in disadvantaged positions, then perhaps set the match so that a judge(someone who actually knows the game unlike Lipton) to award wins sole based on advantages.
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I'm interested to hear day[9]'s opinion on this. He thought Nony should get the win (and he did) when someone DC'ed during Liquibiton. This is a very similar situation. See if he sticks to his guns.
Most likely what happened was Artosis felt sorry that Fenix didn't know much english and had no contacts, therefore he decided to punish Strelok for knowing english doing the right thing and contacting Lipton/SDM about the issue.
" I think if Idra or Nony say that strelok didn't have a decisive advantage that it's probably pretty likely they're right."
And they are also members of Media and friends of Artosis, and it only makes sense for them to support Artosis. Maybe we should ask White_ra and BRAT_OK and see what they think also?
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On July 04 2009 16:38 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
Holy snap I actually agree with something IdrA says for once.
It was definitely the right call not to give a win to either party as I think it would have still been a pretty close game TBH.
Lol, that was my exact thought when I read his comment. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Idra but he's 100% right. The outcome was not clear at all. Strelok had a stronger army but definitely not decisive. He didn't have enough advantage to end the game decisively right there and Fenix had the econ advantage. He could've pushed right then but Fenix was still capable of holding that off. It was still very much up in the air.
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Wow at conspiracy theory.
1) I don't know the Liquibiton game you're talking about (or whatever), but how similar are the two games? This seems like a fairly unique situation where one person arguably has an advantage, but it's not exactly crystal clear and there are still areas where very efficient army management has to take place. I mean in FBH vs. Flash, Flash lost what? 6-8 tanks for no reason?
2) So they have a positive relationship with Artosis = automatically supporting Artosis, but them having a negative relationship with Fenix = ...them helping Fenix?
It's obvious the game had to be replayed, regardless of anything. I can't speak for Strelok, but I imagine if any reasonable gamer played in an important tournament, had their internet die, examine the replay, and discover that they were barely behind in a game that they still had a pretty good chance to win, they would be pissed if they were awarded a loss for it. What precedent would it start if the "Final Decision" was finalized?
It's even worse than "Oh no, I can just disconnect when I'm losing to hopefully replay." It'd lead to "Hmm, I'm barely ahead but if I disconnect, I'll get the win."
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8751 Posts
I'd say I'm negative/neutral with Fenix.
Positive with Strelok (met him in Germany and again in China)
I disagree with Strelok's decision to drop out, but if it had been anyone else, I probably would've been really rude and insulting about it. But Strelok is a good guy and I'll respect his decision.
It would be interesting to hear White-Ra's opinion. I think White-Ra actually wins a lot of PvT's from the position Fenix was in. He has a pretty scrappy and gritty playstyle sometimes and I think if he looked at that replay, he'd be thinking about all the things Protoss can do to win.
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United States1080 Posts
On July 05 2009 04:33 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:
I'm interested to hear day[9]'s opinion on this. He thought Nony should get the win (and he did) when someone DC'ed during Liquibiton. This is a very similar situation. See if he sticks to his guns.
Most likely what happened was Artosis felt sorry that Fenix didn't know much english and had no contacts, therefore he decided to punish Strelok for knowing english doing the right thing and contacting Lipton/SDM about the issue.
" I think if Idra or Nony say that strelok didn't have a decisive advantage that it's probably pretty likely they're right."
And they are also members of Media and friends of Artosis, and it only makes sense for them to support Artosis. Maybe we should ask White_ra and BRAT_OK and see what they think also?
I'm pretty sure Artosis' opinion alone is pretty god damn solid, no one is more passionate and dedicated to StarCraft as him, his main interests are seeing things run correctly and doing the right thing when it comes to competitive StarCraft. He doesn't need Idra's or Nony's "support", they're just two incredible players who also agree from a neutral position that it would be wrong to award Strelok the win and make it 1-1 or go back to 0-0. Idra even says in his post that he hates Fenix but still thinks Artosis' analysis was right.
Not sure how to respond to that second paragraph...
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I don't think it is fair to the person who has the advantage (especially if he didn't disconnect) to have the game replayed; Instead, if possible, the game should be "resumed." In other words, 2 people should get together and try to replicate this game as best as possible, and then save the game and upload the file. Yes, count how many units each has, how many building facilities they have, how many resources left at the main/nat, how many probes are situated at each expo, etc.
Given the time of this disconnect and what was going on, it didn't look like the gamers were surprised by much, ie., strelok knew fenix was making an arb (started making a vessel), knew where his expos where, etc. So...if anyone were to possibly gain something from this (having seen the replay), I think it would be fenix. But with that said, I think strelok would rather try to resume this game than have his withdrawal stand, and I think "fans" would like that too.
Whether having this game be replayed is more fair than awarding a player with a win for this game, it DOES start a bad precedence, something that could easily be abused in the future -- players just disconnecting when they get into an unfavorable situation, but they know it isn't decisive enough to be ruled against. Even if the player isn't intentionally abusing, which I doubt happened here, the bottom line is that it isn't fair to the player who has the advantage.
When you do nothing wrong, but yet feel "punished," it is just something that shouldn't happen. Hopefully that can start to happen less in SC than it is now.
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On July 05 2009 04:45 SmokeMaxX wrote:
Wow at conspiracy theory.
1) I don't know the Liquibiton game you're talking about (or whatever), but how similar are the two games? This seems like a fairly unique situation where one person arguably has an advantage, but it's not exactly crystal clear and there are still areas where very efficient army management has to take place. I mean in FBH vs. Flash, Flash lost what? 6-8 tanks for no reason?
2) So they have a positive relationship with Artosis = automatically supporting Artosis, but them having a negative relationship with Fenix = ...them helping Fenix?
It's obvious the game had to be replayed, regardless of anything. I can't speak for Strelok, but I imagine if any reasonable gamer played in an important tournament, had their internet die, examine the replay, and discover that they were barely behind in a game that they still had a pretty good chance to win, they would be pissed if they were awarded a loss for it. What precedent would it start if the "Final Decision" was finalized?
It's even worse than "Oh no, I can just disconnect when I'm losing to hopefully replay." It'd lead to "Hmm, I'm barely ahead but if I disconnect, I'll get the win."
id say the liquibition game was different because short fo nony killing all his units there was no way he would have lost. f91 had 3 bases vs 4? and no units vs nony who had like 3 ctrl groups
so from what im reading its not very similar
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Hey, didn't someone recently make an application where you can get a save file from the replay? Wouldn't that allow them to continue playing the game normally?
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On July 05 2009 05:15 machinehead.. wrote:
When you do nothing wrong, but yet feel "punished," it is just something that shouldn't happen.
Kind of like when you randomly disconnect and they award the other player a win? Also, recreate the game? I'm not sure you understand the logistics involved in such a task. Recreating an identical situation would be a massive undertaking, and probably require significantly more effort and time than even replaying the entire series. Its not efficient, especially with the time restrictions that these players were apparently dealing with in the first place.
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On July 05 2009 05:15 machinehead.. wrote:
I don't think it is fair to the person who has the advantage (especially if he didn't disconnect) to have the game replayed; Instead, if possible, the game should be "resumed." In other words, 2 people should get together and try to replicate this game as best as possible, and then save the game and upload the file. Yes, count how many units each has, how many building facilities they have, how many resources left at the main/nat, how many probes are situated at each expo, etc.
Given the time of this disconnect and what was going on, it didn't look like the gamers were surprised by much, ie., strelok knew fenix was making an arb (started making a vessel), knew where his expos where, etc. So...if anyone were to possibly gain something from this (having seen the replay), I think it would be fenix. But with that said, I think strelok would rather try to resume this game than have his withdrawal stand, and I think "fans" would like that too.
Whether having this game be replayed is more fair than awarding a player with a win for this game, it DOES start a bad precedence, something that could easily be abused in the future -- players just disconnecting when they get into an unfavorable situation, but they know it isn't decisive enough to be ruled against. Even if the player isn't intentionally abusing, which I doubt happened here, the bottom line is that it isn't fair to the player who has the advantage.
When you do nothing wrong, but yet feel "punished," it is just something that shouldn't happen. Hopefully that can start to happen less in SC than it is now.
Aren't you supposed to be banned?
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I would have to think that in a lot of tourneys, if they can determine who disconnected, it is an auto loss to begin with, simply to avoid these kind of situations. With the exception being, when it is just clear as day who would win, regardless of who disconnected. To me, being someone who plays both sides of this matchup, I feel it would be more unjust to replay this game from scratch than to award someone a win for it. Having a psi advantage at that time in the game and toss not having many probes mining, that is just ideal.
I realize trying to replicate this game could be time consuming, but I feel it is doable, at least to a degree where both players can agree to it. Only reason Fenix wouldn't is due to not wanting to be in an unfavorable situation again.. I say you just subtract the units that were about to die -- 2 tanks, 2 vults and a drop ship, and toss was about to lose 2 or so goons. You make the apt amount of units, you have around the same amount of workers, and you go from there. From what I gather, Fenix can afford to lose this game (up 1-0), so it wouldn't be a travesty to do something like this as it wouldn't be the deciding game of the series. It would probably be more "wrong" to do so if that was the case.
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On July 05 2009 05:29 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote:
Hey, didn't someone recently make an application where you can get a save file from the replay? Wouldn't that allow them to continue playing the game normally?
While this might be true, it would not be the ideal option because both players are going to have infinite amounts of intel on the other player due to the fact both of them have looked at the replay. For instance, if the game were resumed, Strelok would know exactly how long it would be until Fenix had an arbiter, while at the moment all he would be able to tell from a scan is that the stargate was building something.
It would be a good option in a live setting, where you could ensure that neither of them had looked at the replay, but replaying like that so much later isn't fair to either player.
As far as the conspiracy theory goes, Fenix would have to have realized from his own position that he was losing - this is not exactly clear. He might not even have realized that he was at a disadvantage, there's no way short of map hacking for him to have known he was 30 pop behind, and he knew he was up 2 bases (or was it 3).
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On July 05 2009 05:15 machinehead.. wrote:
I don't think it is fair to the person who has the advantage (especially if he didn't disconnect) to have the game replayed; Instead, if possible, the game should be "resumed." In other words, 2 people should get together and try to replicate this game as best as possible, and then save the game and upload the file. Yes, count how many units each has, how many building facilities they have, how many resources left at the main/nat, how many probes are situated at each expo, etc.
Given the time of this disconnect and what was going on, it didn't look like the gamers were surprised by much, ie., strelok knew fenix was making an arb (started making a vessel), knew where his expos where, etc. So...if anyone were to possibly gain something from this (having seen the replay), I think it would be fenix. But with that said, I think strelok would rather try to resume this game than have his withdrawal stand, and I think "fans" would like that too.
Whether having this game be replayed is more fair than awarding a player with a win for this game, it DOES start a bad precedence, something that could easily be abused in the future -- players just disconnecting when they get into an unfavorable situation, but they know it isn't decisive enough to be ruled against. Even if the player isn't intentionally abusing, which I doubt happened here, the bottom line is that it isn't fair to the player who has the advantage.
When you do nothing wrong, but yet feel "punished," it is just something that shouldn't happen. Hopefully that can start to happen less in SC than it is now.
That's the most unrealistic, stupid thing I've read in this entire thread.
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On July 05 2009 05:49 soudo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 05:15 machinehead.. wrote:
I don't think it is fair to the person who has the advantage (especially if he didn't disconnect) to have the game replayed; Instead, if possible, the game should be "resumed." In other words, 2 people should get together and try to replicate this game as best as possible, and then save the game and upload the file. Yes, count how many units each has, how many building facilities they have, how many resources left at the main/nat, how many probes are situated at each expo, etc.
Given the time of this disconnect and what was going on, it didn't look like the gamers were surprised by much, ie., strelok knew fenix was making an arb (started making a vessel), knew where his expos where, etc. So...if anyone were to possibly gain something from this (having seen the replay), I think it would be fenix. But with that said, I think strelok would rather try to resume this game than have his withdrawal stand, and I think "fans" would like that too.
Whether having this game be replayed is more fair than awarding a player with a win for this game, it DOES start a bad precedence, something that could easily be abused in the future -- players just disconnecting when they get into an unfavorable situation, but they know it isn't decisive enough to be ruled against. Even if the player isn't intentionally abusing, which I doubt happened here, the bottom line is that it isn't fair to the player who has the advantage.
When you do nothing wrong, but yet feel "punished," it is just something that shouldn't happen. Hopefully that can start to happen less in SC than it is now. Aren't you supposed to be banned?
Are you supposed to be related to Chill? That guy is pretty good at disguising his points. So good, in fact, I've yet to see one. I got banned for arguing about something that was "wrong" that happened to me. It bothers me to see others not receive the proper decision. The decision in this isn't bad given the perceived options, but I feel there is a better alternative, one that is more fair.
Hopefully someone bans me, I don't want to further worry posters like the one I'm addressing, and very rarely do I feel like posting.
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On July 05 2009 05:59 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 05:15 machinehead.. wrote:
I don't think it is fair to the person who has the advantage (especially if he didn't disconnect) to have the game replayed; Instead, if possible, the game should be "resumed." In other words, 2 people should get together and try to replicate this game as best as possible, and then save the game and upload the file. Yes, count how many units each has, how many building facilities they have, how many resources left at the main/nat, how many probes are situated at each expo, etc.
Given the time of this disconnect and what was going on, it didn't look like the gamers were surprised by much, ie., strelok knew fenix was making an arb (started making a vessel), knew where his expos where, etc. So...if anyone were to possibly gain something from this (having seen the replay), I think it would be fenix. But with that said, I think strelok would rather try to resume this game than have his withdrawal stand, and I think "fans" would like that too.
Whether having this game be replayed is more fair than awarding a player with a win for this game, it DOES start a bad precedence, something that could easily be abused in the future -- players just disconnecting when they get into an unfavorable situation, but they know it isn't decisive enough to be ruled against. Even if the player isn't intentionally abusing, which I doubt happened here, the bottom line is that it isn't fair to the player who has the advantage.
When you do nothing wrong, but yet feel "punished," it is just something that shouldn't happen. Hopefully that can start to happen less in SC than it is now. That's the most unrealistic, stupid thing I've read in this entire thread.
If you know how much psi there should be, and you know how many units the guy has, you simply make probes till you have that psi.
It's an idea, man. Not everything in life is easy. The question is, do you want this tourney to unfold like it should, or are you satisfied with how it will end up if nothing changes? It depends on how important this tourney is to the gamers and others to consider alternatives like this. If there isn't much value placed on this, then by all means it's too much trouble.
It doesn't have to be exact, simply to a degree that players can feel that their respective position in the game is basically the same. In one scenario, players keep status quo. In the other possible scenario, 1 player loses an advantage, and another player loses his disadvantage. "Dumb" is not trying to think of ways to preserve such conditions.
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United States1080 Posts
On July 05 2009 05:56 machinehead.. wrote:
I would have to think that in a lot of tourneys, if they can determine who disconnected, it is an auto loss to begin with, simply to avoid these kind of situations. With the exception being, when it is just clear as day who would win, regardless of who disconnected. To me, being someone who plays both sides of this matchup, I feel it would be more unjust to replay this game from scratch than to award someone a win for it. Having a psi advantage at that time in the game and toss not having many probes mining, that is just ideal.
I realize trying to replicate this game could be time consuming, but I feel it is doable, at least to a degree where both players can agree to it. Only reason Fenix wouldn't is due to not wanting to be in an unfavorable situation again.. I say you just subtract the units that were about to die -- 2 tanks, 2 vults and a drop ship, and toss was about to lose 2 or so goons. You make the apt amount of units, you have around the same amount of workers, and you go from there. From what I gather, Fenix can afford to lose this game (up 1-0), so it wouldn't be a travesty to do something like this as it wouldn't be the deciding game of the series. It would probably be more "wrong" to do so if that was the case.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present Perpetua to thee.
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On July 04 2009 20:46 Strelok. wrote:
So now according to precendent rule, after having disadvantage which is not critical, i can always disc from game and claim regame. Let's see how it works.
according to your version of fair, the next time you have a slight lead in a game you can just disc and get the auto win? I wonder how that would work.
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On July 05 2009 01:17 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 00:50 Liquid`NonY wrote:On July 05 2009 00:15 ZeitgeistMovie wrote:
Pretty sure when Nony played F91, it was a similar situation. Nony had advantage, but he wasn't outside F91's base or anything, he was mostly at his base defending and making his third vs F91 3 bases, yet Nony was given the win. Same situation here. IMO, everyone is just going where the wind blows. If Artosis were to say that Strelok was surely going to push out and win, everyone would be like "yeah, yeah." F91 gave me the winAbout the Strelok/Fenix game: I think the key thing there is that Strelok would only have a big advantage if he was in position. He can't just move all his shit down and siege up. If there was a push going, then it would seem that Terran would have a good chance to hit his timing. But what we see in the replay is a Protoss with a great chance to defend his half of the map long enough to let Arbiter tech kick in and finish off a Terran whose timing failed. There we go, TL didn't award Nony a win, F91 did. We all know how easy it is for bad positioning to ruin a Terran when Storms are out at any time ever.
fixed
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EPT
