EPTIdrA vs. Foreigners - Page 6
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
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HooHa!
United States688 Posts
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
On June 29 2009 03:57 HooHa! wrote: He still needs to go through courage. I think that's where you can probably draw the line. No he doesn't. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
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R3condite
Korea (South)1541 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:20 Failsafe wrote: I'm not sure what you could mean by this as other non-Koreans who have participated in the Korean professional Starcraft leagues have traditionally participated in their national tournaments (WCG for instance). Assem participated in WCG while he was on Hexatron, for instance. And PJ / LX / Draco all had professional experience in Korea while also continuing in the foreign scene. Lastgosu from USA WCG also had a professional license from before. I don't see any reason to for there to be an arbitrary distinction now against Idra. hmm, i believe i saw Koreans enter WCG as well... maybe it's because it's a national thing? plus as long as you have a citizenship you get to represent your country so if anything that would be evening things out... i think OP was considering small stuff when he started this thread | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On June 29 2009 14:58 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't really think he should. It's a bit unfair to others who play sc more as a pass time and not professionally. What? It definitely is fair. Idra plays his ass off to be as good as he is. Just because he got better than the other players doesn't mean he shouldn't still get to play them. And if they play sc to pass time and not professionally, then it's their own fault that they lose to Idra and don't deserve to win these tournaments. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
On June 29 2009 03:57 HooHa! wrote: He still needs to go through courage. I think that's where you can probably draw the line. That's just pointless. I think most everyone can agree that IdrA is skilled enough to have earned his progaming license now. There's scores of other korean pros who were just handed their licenses as well. It's a part of the system KeSPA has set up for players to get their licenses, and to be honest it is a very good system. You can be incredibly skilled but there's still an element of luck in winning Courage and a player who could be furthering his skill by experiencing things like the GOM Classic or the Offline prelims shouldn't be hindered because he didn't get through an insane 256 man? qualifier or whatever it is that only happens every 2 or 3 months. | ||
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groro
67 Posts
On June 28 2009 05:54 jkillashark wrote: In Korea and Japan, they take baduk commonly known as the board game go very seriously. Kids start training VERY early starting in their grade school years and often become pro in middle school. Those who are training to become a pro are often forbidden from playing amateur tournaments. Why? Playing against weaker opponents who have bad habits will give the trainee bad habits themselves. (Thought process. ahha this works against these nubs) (Reality: Works against nubs and builts a bad habit that good pros will dismantle and tear apart). Actually, this works for many sports and probably goes for SC as well. Once IdrA starts winning back-to-back tournaments, I think he should resign himself from the foreign scene. He's proven that he's able to dominate them, so why keep trouncing on them when there's bigger fish to fry? It's not like he's improving himself. When I play table tennis, I try to avoid playing people who I know I'm going to because they have poor technique because I develop bad habits playing against them. Since they suck and will often mess up, my footwork gets lazy, I half expect not to return a serve properly. Yeah sure, I'll have to eventually play weaker players but when I do I don't try to win, I look for ways to improve my own game by playing them. (Example, focus on footwork and only use my forehand.) Korean Footwork (Ryu Seung Min 2004 Olympic Champion) Getting your butt kicked by a better player helps you improve faster cause you see how you lose points when they're forced as opposed to the other guy making mistakes. I think IdrA is getting closer to Korean progamer level, a lot more than people give credit. Go Greg! Screw the amateurs, go for gold in South Korea! as if playing vs foreigners in tourneys here and there is a big influence factor compared to the 9 hours a day of playing vs progamers. afaik even progamers play iccup here and there. maybe parallel to your very good mechanics and builds it even helps you to rise your scouting and game adapting skills if you play vs opponents who can mostly only win vs you by catching you off-guard. on topic question: if he would win everything from now on and always taking first place it would sooner or later reduce competition. maybe if the prizepool for 2. or 3. places would be high enough, old players would be still motivated. but in the group of new players and fans which identify themselves with different players and other playing conditions than the one of idras, the interest could decrease. on the other hand sc 2 is about to come out. so imo not that big of a concern in the remaining time. | ||
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
On June 29 2009 02:58 I3oxerfan wrote: Have you seen the games betwenn Idra and Yayba? Pretty good games. + Show Spoiler + No gg by Idra. hint of the result? where could these games be found, via rep or vod format? seeing the spoiler... + Show Spoiler + idra loses? ^ ^ gL | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
On June 29 2009 02:48 d1v wrote: Well, in order to determine whether Idra should be excluded, I guess we have to find out why we ban Korean progamers from foreigner tournaments in the first spot: As far as I know, it has nothing to do with their nationality or heritage. The reason why Korean progamers are excluded is, that their skill outmatches the foreigner community's best player's skill by far. This is not because Koreans are naturally better at SC, but because of the rigid training Korean progamers undergo. Even Korean B-Teamers have such a high winning-rate vs top foreign players, that it's common sense to exclude them from foreign tournaments. Now, Idra has been to Korea for more than a year now, IIRC. He's undergone the training schedule of Korean progamers and has become one of them. While he's certainly not untouchable, he's undoubtedly on the level of a Korean B-Team progamer, who, as stated above, are all excluded from foreigner tournaments. Hence, the only stringent thing to do would be excluding him from foreign tournaments as well. As a Terran player, I really love to see him play, but I find that it's just become more and more unfair, since he's just starting to dominate every foreign event he participates in. I was thinking about this same thing watching the sc2gg finals. What it really comes down to is what is Idra's learning style. I studied go pretty intensely for 4 years, one of which was in Japan. During that period I discovered about myself that I learn best by losing. When I win, even if I dissect a game in detail afterward, I find it hard to learn from my mistakes because I wasn't really made to pay for them. Win I lose, my mistakes are shoved in my face and I adapt my thinking much more quickly and am able to focus on the issue exposed when I study. I came to love losing, because I know it helps me improve. Now, no matter the discipline, if I am winning more than 50% I get unhappy and lose motivation. A lot of people learn like I do, but there are also a lot of people that do not. Idra, I get the impression, really hates losing and, my guess is, doesn't learn from his losses as well as he does from his wins. My best go practice partner in Japan was like this. He would get so frustrated reviewing his losses that he sometimes didn't even get to the end of the game. His wins, however, he could review multiple times and be very hard on himself, spotting even the smallest things that he could have done better. If Idra learns best from his wins he should keep playing in the foreign tournaments until he starts winning the majority of his games against Korean B teamers. If I ran a tournament, though, I wouldn't invite him. He has gotten too good from what I've seen lately. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17733 Posts
On June 29 2009 16:04 Sosha wrote: hint of the result? where could these games be found, via rep or vod format? seeing the spoiler... + Show Spoiler + idra loses? ^ ^ gL + Show Spoiler + he won 3-2 but the games he lost he didnt gg Also i really enjoyed reading your post mucker. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7475 Posts
Are you fucking kidding me. It is our communities job to support our interest in pro gaming. Lets face it non-korean pro gamers in korea is good for e-sports. Unless tournaments make rules again bm and idra still breaks them then any tournaments that he can win, he deserves! | ||
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BalliSLife
1339 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On June 29 2009 03:27 infinity2k9 wrote: I think its kind of unfair because really everyone is using 'foreigner' as a word for amateur not just literally foreign. Since hes professional i think everyone else should have a chance to win tournaments considering there's prize money involved. It should be like any sport, you'd never have a professional compete at an amateur event for money. there's not really any regulations that i know of that would prevent them from doing so, but it's not good practice and in other sports the players make so much money that wasting time on an amateur level tournament is pointless its not really sensible to compare idra's situation to what happens in other professional sports for that specific reason | ||
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cujo2k
Canada1044 Posts
/facepalm stx doesn't have a b team, so of course Trap is on the A team. On topic, is it unfair for progamers to participate in amateur tournaments? Absolutely. If IdrA is allowed, then all of the great chinese players need to be allowed to even it up, or bring in some pro koreans. I also think that if IdrA was a great guy like NonY, that this would be more of a non issue, and people would root for NonY to dominate the non kor scene and win some money. | ||
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KillForce
Sweden36 Posts
On June 29 2009 16:49 cujo2k wrote: On topic, is it unfair for progamers to participate in amateur tournaments? Absolutely. If IdrA is allowed, then all of the great chinese players need to be allowed to even it up, or bring in some pro koreans. I also think that if IdrA was a great guy like NonY, that this would be more of a non issue, and people would root for NonY to dominate the non kor scene and win some money. Whatever you think of idra is not a very strong argument (troll?). Chinese players are sometimes excluded because people fear games are unplayable due to bad network connection, not their skill. They are not always excluded. In fact, IdrA was beaten out of a tournament (asl maybe?) by a chinese just a few weeks ago. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On June 27 2009 16:08 JWD wrote: We're already at that point. Here IdrA's results in each of the foreigner tournament series he's played recently (since losing to F91 in Liquibition): SC2GG Starleague: IdrA 2>0 Oystein IdrA 3>1 Xiaozi (now in finals, will play Yayba (games are done, but cast is tomorrow and results are still unknown)) Ansadi Starleague: (can't find a bracket, know he won two Bo3s to make the semis) IdrA 2>? ??? IdrA 2>? ??? IdrA 2<4 PJ (IdrA loses in the semis) Valor: IdrA 2>1 MaNa IdrA 2>0 Tarson (now in Ro8, will play Castro) ESL Major Series: IdrA 3>0 Mondragon (now in semis, will play winner of Arew/JF) ESWC Asian Masters Cheonan: IdrA 1<2 White-Ra IdrA 2>1 Super IdrA 2>0 Tossgirl IdrA 3>0 White-Ra (IdrA wins ESWC Asian Masters) Zotac Cup 2: IdrA 2>0 MaNa IdrA 2>1 Yoon IdrA 3>1 DIMAGA (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 2) Zotac Cup 8: IdrA 2>0 Fenix IdrA 2>0 ASL-Radio (?) IdrA 3>0 ret (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 8) Zotac Cup 9: IdrA 2>1 Yayba IdrA 2>0 Shudo (?) IdrA 3>0 JF (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 9 - yes IdrA has won every Zotac Cup he's played thus far, barring an unknown smurf + Bo1 loss I've missed) Am I missing any series? Let me know. Also, an ASL bracket would be useful for identifying IdrA's Ro16 and Ro8 opponents and results there. Add it all up: over this period IdrA has lost two tournament series - one to PJ in ASL and one to White-Ra at ESWC (he went on to 3-0 White-Ra in the finals, putting him at 4>2 White-Ra overall at ESWC). He lost only 12 games over all of these series (not counting the two mystery ASL matches - 19 matches total, and 55 games). That's a record of 43-12 (78%). Basically IdrA is destroying the foreigner scene right now. The games I've seen him lose (PJ series aside) have been due to really dumb, obvious mistakes, while the games I've seen him win have been solid victories. Edit: lol Sosha, you have your "Bo3 showmatch" wish granted - IdrA whipped everyone but PJ, and I'd love to see them play again in a LAN/lagless environment just for kicks. wow, if this is true then im surprised... man i have high hopes of JF. but he wants to study than play SC, which i dont blame him at all. | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
On June 29 2009 16:12 AttackZerg wrote: Some of you guys want to actually kick the only non-korean pro gamer out of foreigner tournaments? Are you fucking kidding me. It is our communities job to support our interest in pro gaming. Lets face it non-korean pro gamers in korea is good for e-sports. Unless tournaments make rules again bm and idra still breaks them then any tournaments that he can win, he deserves! No, actually I don't want him to be kicked out. I just pointed out that by our logic, he actually should be excluded to give non-professionals a chance. But if none of the top foreign players complain about his dominance and the people behind the tournaments don't care as well, then there is no problem with him participating. Personally it's all fine with me anyways, I enjoy seeing him play TvZ a lot. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13074 Posts
Ok he is participating in amateur tournamens but why koreans are banned then? There are tons of progamers that are at the same lvl as idra or even worse and you are not giving them a chance to win some $ . So with what logic do you ban korean progamers participating in the amateur tournaments and idra is allowed to play then? Only difference betwhen idra and some random korean progamer is that he is from USA. Leave amateur tournaments/leagues to the amateurs.... progamers have their own world of tournaments with big cash prizes which AMATEURS cant even dream to participate and not to mention wining them | ||
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