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Poll: Should IdrA still compete in amateur tournaments? (Vote): Yes! He's not Korean and is therefore still a foreigner, technically... (Vote): No! He receives professional training and has a massive advantage over the competition!
I was randomly considering this, so I thought I'd make a thread about it to see how other people felt.
For the sake of this argument, I'm going to make the distinction that foreign SC is "amateur" and that Korean SC is "professional". Of course Korean SC can be broken down and further sub-divided (i.e. B-Team, Korean amateur, etc.) but in the point that I'd like to put forward here, lumping the entire scene into the professional sphere will suffice.
That being said, I was curious as to the opinions of the community regarding IdrA's participation in foreigner tournaments. This is in no way meant to be disrespectful, but is it really appropriate for him to be participating in amateur tournaments since he has been receiving professional training? Aren't they (usually) closed to other Korean b-team members? Do opponents: a) welcome the opportunity to play someone of IdrA's caliber or b) think it's unfair, and that foreign tournaments should remain exclusive to "true foreign" players - as in, ones that aren't actively participating in the professional SC scene?
Really, it's a testament to his increasing skill level, because he's going to be (or perhaps already is) capable of stomping everyone in the amateur scene... and the whole point of the amateur scene, as I see it, is to mimic the professional scene, because it's predominently closed to foreign, non-Korean participation... so, shouldn't the amateur scene be closed to professional participation?
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He should until he joins the A team
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I can see this either way, but fortunately it probably won't matter a whole lot in the future since sc2 will be out and everything will be different.
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lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant
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I'm not sure what you could mean by this as other non-Koreans who have participated in the Korean professional Starcraft leagues have traditionally participated in their national tournaments (WCG for instance). Assem participated in WCG while he was on Hexatron, for instance. And PJ / LX / Draco all had professional experience in Korea while also continuing in the foreign scene.
Lastgosu from USA WCG also had a professional license from before.
I don't see any reason to for there to be an arbitrary distinction now against Idra.
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I never knew foreign tournments didn't allow korean pros to play
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On June 27 2009 15:19 Whiplash wrote: He should until he joins the A team this is pretty fair imo
edit: i'm not saying he'll do that anytime soon, or even at all, but it would be a fair way to decide
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Yes if he continues to BM. Idra is comedy gold.
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United States12607 Posts
I'd vote yes, but mostly because I like watching IdrA play. I think he deserves a slot in foreign tournaments as long as the tournament organizers are willing to have him - which will be for a while yet, considering he's a relatively attention-getting player.
The fact that this topic even exists is an indication that IdrA is really pulling away from the foreign scene - look at his recent results. He's destroyed pretty much every foreigner tourney he's played in lately...
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On June 27 2009 15:20 Failsafe wrote: I'm not sure what you could mean by this as other non-Koreans who have participated in the Korean professional Starcraft leagues have traditionally participated in their national tournaments (WCG for instance). Assem participated in WCG while he was on Hexatron, for instance. And PJ / LX / Draco all had professional experience in Korea while also continuing in the foreign scene.
Lastgosu from USA WCG also had a professional license from before.
I don't see any reason to for there to be an arbitrary distinction now against Idra.
WCG is understandable, because the Korean pros play in that too... This whole thought process started in my head when I was looking at a tournament more along the lines of ESL or Valor. (I realize Tossgirl played Valor, but she was more of a, "omg a pro participant!" than an actual precedent to having a ton of Korean pros in these tournaments.)
The thing with WCG is, a Korean pro is 99.9% going to win these days, and I envisage a similar situation eventually coming around in foreign tournaments, when IdrA is too good for any amateur player to beat.
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On June 27 2009 15:19 Whiplash wrote: He should until he joins the A team
Fair argument. That being said, would you think it was fair for ANY Korean B-teamer to join?
I just foresee a point in the future where IdrA, even if he's still on the B-team, is going to wreck everyone... and when that happens, what's the point of having foreign tournaments anymore?
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I've been wondering the same thing myself. I think he should definitely be allowed to continue participating until he chooses otherwise. Once the skill gap gets too big, it would be quite unfair but when that time comes, I think Idra will recognize it and choose to avoid participating in foreigner tournaments.
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I don't think a pro should be allowed to play in an amateur's tournament.
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On June 27 2009 15:21 fearus wrote: I never knew foreign tournments didn't allow korean pros to play
Maybe they're not specifically barred, but you don't see too many participating, do you? Maybe it's the language barrier, maybe it's just way too under their radar, but they don't play... the argument is, if a whole slough of Korean B-teamers found out they could make some extra cash smashing foreigners in their spare time and started signing up en masse, what would the point be for the foreign community?
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On June 27 2009 15:19 Whiplash wrote: He should until he joins the A team Perfect.
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I disagree completely with that.
He should be able to compete in them even after he joins the A team.
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Interesting topic. I think he should be allowed to enter foreign tournaments, as they're prolly the only way he'll win money in tournaments. Lets face it, most don't believe he'll make it into an A-team squad.. and lord knows he won't be winning a starleague etc..
He's still technically a foreigner, so that should make him eligible. I don't really consider him that much different from any other foreigner, except the dedication that he's shown. Just because he's been in Korea, doesn't make him any different from us - he's just been under the extreme training regiment as that of the Koreans, like 12-14 hours a day of nothing but gaming. Everyone could reach the same level if they had the dedication..
Of course a lot of ppl have to worry about work/school/etc instead of being able to mass-game like that all the time.. Which might explain the gap in skill. But honestly.. who all has he stomped over? I know he recently beat Mondi.. Didn't F91 stomp him though?
Best way to end the debate, put him in a showmatch w/ all the top foreigners of today. Best of 3 against white-ra ret draco incontrol arew etc.. and perhaps some chinese (although they're almost considered in a league of their own) Pj / Legend
gL
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United States12607 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:27 arsonist wrote: I just foresee a point in the future where IdrA, even if he's still on the B-team, is going to wreck everyone... and when that happens, what's the point of having foreign tournaments anymore? We're already at that point. Here IdrA's results in each of the foreigner tournament series he's played recently (since losing to F91 in Liquibition):
SC2GG Starleague: IdrA 2>0 Oystein IdrA 3>1 Xiaozi (now in finals, will play Yayba (games are done, but cast is tomorrow and results are still unknown))
Ansadi Starleague: (can't find a bracket, know he won two Bo3s to make the semis) IdrA 2>? ??? IdrA 2>? ??? IdrA 2<4 PJ (IdrA loses in the semis)
Valor: IdrA 2>1 MaNa IdrA 2>0 Tarson (now in Ro8, will play Castro)
ESL Major Series: IdrA 3>0 Mondragon (now in semis, will play winner of Arew/JF)
ESWC Asian Masters Cheonan: IdrA 1<2 White-Ra IdrA 2>1 Super IdrA 2>0 Tossgirl IdrA 3>0 White-Ra (IdrA wins ESWC Asian Masters)
Zotac Cup 2: IdrA 2>0 MaNa IdrA 2>1 Yoon IdrA 3>1 DIMAGA (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 2)
Zotac Cup 8: IdrA 2>0 Fenix IdrA 2>0 ASL-Radio (?) IdrA 3>0 ret (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 8)
Zotac Cup 9: IdrA 2>1 Yayba IdrA 2>0 Shudo (?) IdrA 3>0 JF (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 9 - yes IdrA has won every Zotac Cup he's played thus far, barring an unknown smurf + Bo1 loss I've missed)
Am I missing any series? Let me know. Also, an ASL bracket would be useful for identifying IdrA's Ro16 and Ro8 opponents and results there.
Add it all up: over this period IdrA has lost two tournament series - one to PJ in ASL and one to White-Ra at ESWC (he went on to 3-0 White-Ra in the finals, putting him at 4>2 White-Ra overall at ESWC). He lost only 12 games over all of these series (not counting the two mystery ASL matches - 19 matches total, and 55 games). That's a record of 43-12 (78%).
Basically IdrA is destroying the foreigner scene right now. The games I've seen him lose (PJ series aside) have been due to really dumb, obvious mistakes, while the games I've seen him win have been solid victories.
Edit: lol Sosha, you have your "Bo3 showmatch" wish granted - IdrA whipped everyone but PJ, and I'd love to see them play again in a LAN/lagless environment just for kicks.
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On June 27 2009 15:54 Sosha wrote: Interesting topic. I think he should be allowed to enter foreign tournaments, as they're prolly the only way he'll win money in tournaments. Lets face it, most don't believe he'll make it into an A-team squad.. and lord knows he won't be winning a starleague etc..
He's still technically a foreigner, so that should make him eligible. I don't really consider him that much different from any other foreigner, except the dedication that he's shown. Just because he's been in Korea, doesn't make him any different from us - he's just been under the extreme training regiment as that of the Koreans, like 12-14 hours a day of nothing but gaming. Everyone could reach the same level if they had the dedication..
Of course a lot of ppl have to worry about work/school/etc instead of being able to mass-game like that all the time.. Which might explain the gap in skill. But honestly.. who all has he stomped over? I know he recently beat Mondi.. Didn't F91 stomp him though?
Best way to end the debate, put him in a showmatch w/ all the top foreigners of today. Best of 3 against white-ra ret draco incontrol arew etc.. and perhaps some chinese (although they're almost considered in a league of their own) Pj / Legend
gL
that list gave me cerebral lawsly
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i wish i could think of a way in which idra should be allowed to compete in foreigner tournaments... but unless these tournaments allow korean b-teamers to compete i don't think it is fair. I thought these tournaments were for the scene outside of korea... not for the "hey as long as you aren't korean its cool".
i guess let him compete until he gets a-team seems ok.
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Thanks for the stats, JWD! I didn't want to say he was already owning everyone without factual evidence, and there it is.
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Koreans don't play in foreign tourneys because they have better tourneys to play in,in Korea
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It's true that he's not an amateur, but he is still a guy who doesn't speak korean, has only been pro for a year or two, and basically is another attempt by a foreigner to practice and eventually perform like a korean professional, all of the other recent such attempts having set precident for failure.
Another thing is, even if you do want to say that he's 'not a foreigner' simply because he's living in korea and has been drafted by a proteam, you're still not even saying much. I'm not sure that b-teamers are even really in another class than the top amateur non-koreans.
It's going to take alot more work yet before he is more than just a b-teamer, and truly above the other top foreigners.
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He should still play in these tournaments. All the others who went to train in Korea also played in these tournies. It would be unfair for Idra if he is banned. gogogo Idra fighting
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wouldn thet chinese then b unable to compete also?
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On June 27 2009 16:40 DM20 wrote: Koreans don't play in foreign tourneys because they have better tourneys to play in,in Korea I don't think those tourneys allow pro gamers. Pro gamers have their own tourneys, OSL etc, which IdrA has played in and lost terribly.
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The Chinese are banned due to lag reasons afaik.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
this aint up to any of you
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Idra got destroyed really badly by PJ, i'd like to see them fight again
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Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them.
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edit: wrong place
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By normal sport definitions anyone who is being paid is technically professional or semi-professional at least. That would disqualify many foreigners so of course you can't make silly rules like that.
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I think that official segregation of 'foreigners' and Koreans is a bad idea. The two communities are worlds apart already and all efforts should be made to bridge them IMO.
This is easier said than done, of course, but I think that even if there were one or two more foreign players on teams in Korea, the community as a whole would benefit.
But then, what do I know?
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I vote yes ofcourse. Idra is from usa, he plays bw, so why not? Also he is a B-teamer so he doesn't show on proleague. And who wouldn't want to see such high level Terran play from a foreigner? Draco has been in korea too, same as nony. They shouldn't be able to compete in feroign tournament as well then.
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The progamers have their own tourneys (OSL, MSL and PL) and Idra is a "progamer" or at least he wants to be a progamer and therfore he should not play in foreigner tourneys.
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On June 27 2009 19:06 Piste wrote: I vote yes ofcourse. Idra is from usa, he plays bw, so why not? Also he is a B-teamer so he doesn't show on proleague. And who wouldn't want to see such high level Terran play from a foreigner? Draco has been in korea too, same as nony. They shouldn't be able to compete in feroign tournament as well then.
No. It is a different. Nony and Draco were in Korea. Idra is in Korea.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them.
hes not bottom of b team at cj
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On June 27 2009 16:40 DM20 wrote: Koreans don't play in foreign tourneys because they have better tourneys to play in,in Korea
Im pretty sure if the TSL was opened to koreans they would have played.
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I wanna see him play so unless I see him in SL/PL he should absolutely be allowed to do so. :p
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On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. go to the replay section and download the rep of idra vs ret some of the comments of day[9] and ret when they were watching the rep were along the lines of hes a b but plays like an A, hes like the best player ive seen on iccup, hes crazy good etc etc
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On June 27 2009 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. hes not bottom of b team at cj
how would u know?
nothing against IdrA, but its not like they have an official b-teamer in house ranking list that they publish publicly now is there?
IdrA should be allowed to join any tournaments that he wants to play in unless the tourneys regulations says otherwise..
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I don't like Idra but I wouldn't want to see him banned from foreigner tournaments.
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On June 27 2009 20:40 Shizuru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. hes not bottom of b team at cj how would u know? nothing against IdrA, but its not like they have an official b-teamer in house ranking list that they publish publicly now is there? IdrA should be allowed to join any tournaments that he wants to play in unless the tourneys regulations says otherwise.. i remember the minor league video artosis uploaded idra said that his coaches make the team do a inhouse ranking tournament
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On June 27 2009 20:40 Shizuru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. hes not bottom of b team at cj how would u know? nothing against IdrA, but its not like they have an official b-teamer in house ranking list that they publish publicly now is there? IdrA should be allowed to join any tournaments that he wants to play in unless the tourneys regulations says otherwise.. Well he was top 50% in eSTRO... not that that's saying much
EDIT: actually, what am I saying? Top 50% in any progaming house is damn good.
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On June 27 2009 16:12 stroggos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 15:54 Sosha wrote: Interesting topic. I think he should be allowed to enter foreign tournaments, as they're prolly the only way he'll win money in tournaments. Lets face it, most don't believe he'll make it into an A-team squad.. and lord knows he won't be winning a starleague etc..
He's still technically a foreigner, so that should make him eligible. I don't really consider him that much different from any other foreigner, except the dedication that he's shown. Just because he's been in Korea, doesn't make him any different from us - he's just been under the extreme training regiment as that of the Koreans, like 12-14 hours a day of nothing but gaming. Everyone could reach the same level if they had the dedication..
Of course a lot of ppl have to worry about work/school/etc instead of being able to mass-game like that all the time.. Which might explain the gap in skill. But honestly.. who all has he stomped over? I know he recently beat Mondi.. Didn't F91 stomp him though?
Best way to end the debate, put him in a showmatch w/ all the top foreigners of today. Best of 3 against white-ra ret draco incontrol arew etc.. and perhaps some chinese (although they're almost considered in a league of their own) Pj / Legend
gL that list gave me cerebral lawsly
me too. especially when it said arew after incontrol lawl
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Personally, I was always suprised Idra was able to find the time to actually participate in foreigner events. Afterall, a progamer has to practice almost all the time and this is not mentioning participation in the offline qualifiers.
In any case, I see no problem with Idra participating. While he is doing incredibly well (in foreigner events), I still do not think he has yet reached the point where no foreigner would be able to touch him. As long as that is the case, I think he deserves a place in foreigner events just like anyone else.
Besides, his participation is mutually beneficial. Other foreigners get to play someone with Korean training, while Idra gets to play with people he can actually talk to.
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Probably not, but it's fun to see how he progresses and brings a lot of hype so whatever.
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On June 27 2009 21:39 Tom Phoenix wrote: Personally, I was always suprised Idra was able to find the time to actually participate in foreigner events. Afterall, a progamer has to practice almost all the time and this is not mentioning participation in the offline qualifiers.
In any case, I see no problem with Idra participating. While he is doing incredibly well (in foreigner events), I still do not think he has yet reached the point where no foreigner would be able to touch him. As long as that is the case, I think he deserves a place in foreigner events just like anyone else.
Besides, his participation is mutually beneficial. Other foreigners get to play someone with Korean training, while Idra gets to play with people he can actually talk to. i think he gets premission from his coaches to play in them
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I voted yes because there will always be some skillless newb who will show him the difference between korean and foreign starcraft.
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Might be just me, but did the OP really want to start discussion over this pointless topic, or he just needed this for flame war? Answer is obvious, he should be allowed to particpate - hes not @ the level where he won't drop single game to foreigners, and even if he was - its not his fault others don't have the time and such means of training. But at the same times hes better than any other foreigner, at least considering his recent results - but that doesn't disqualify him, right?
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On June 27 2009 21:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 21:39 Tom Phoenix wrote: Personally, I was always suprised Idra was able to find the time to actually participate in foreigner events. Afterall, a progamer has to practice almost all the time and this is not mentioning participation in the offline qualifiers.
In any case, I see no problem with Idra participating. While he is doing incredibly well (in foreigner events), I still do not think he has yet reached the point where no foreigner would be able to touch him. As long as that is the case, I think he deserves a place in foreigner events just like anyone else.
Besides, his participation is mutually beneficial. Other foreigners get to play someone with Korean training, while Idra gets to play with people he can actually talk to. i think he gets premission from his coaches to play in them
Well, yes, that is preety obvious. My point was that I thought he was so busy with practice and events in Korea that he would not be able to find the time to participate (especially in so many of them).
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On June 27 2009 20:40 Shizuru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. hes not bottom of b team at cj how would u know? nothing against IdrA, but its not like they have an official b-teamer in house ranking list that they publish publicly now is there? IdrA should be allowed to join any tournaments that he wants to play in unless the tourneys regulations says otherwise..
u know fakesteve is quite good friends with IdrA and musth ave asked him
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For the sake of idrama i would prefer watching Idra in foreigner's leagues . Besides Idra is showing great dedication in to progameing . Might as well start earning money from it .
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On June 27 2009 22:41 whatusername wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 20:40 Shizuru~ wrote:On June 27 2009 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. hes not bottom of b team at cj how would u know? nothing against IdrA, but its not like they have an official b-teamer in house ranking list that they publish publicly now is there? IdrA should be allowed to join any tournaments that he wants to play in unless the tourneys regulations says otherwise.. u know fakesteve is quite good friends with IdrA and musth ave asked him
yeah. everytime i come on west fakesteve and idra are in op tl-west talking (it isn't that often but still)
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Having IdrA in foreign competition only raises the level of play in the competition, and that can only be good for the foreign community.
No?
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On June 27 2009 23:10 tree.hugger wrote:Having IdrA in foreign competition only raises the level of play in the competition, and that can only be good for the foreign community. No?
Exactly.
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On June 27 2009 20:40 Shizuru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 19:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On June 27 2009 18:42 NovaTheFeared wrote: Idra should play in the tournaments until his skill rises to that of a korean progamer. Right now he's bottom of B-team level which isn't a terribly large gap from the best foreign players as shown by the numerous matches he's lost to them. hes not bottom of b team at cj how would u know? + Show Spoiler +nothing against IdrA, but its not like they have an official b-teamer in house ranking list that they publish publicly now is there? IdrA should be allowed to join any tournaments that he wants to play in unless the tourneys regulations says otherwise.. because he's motherfucking
fake steve
bitch.
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obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone.
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IdrA owning everyone in foreign tournaments could lead to: a) All foreign players having to go pro (just to beat IdrA), thus leading to ESPORTS revolution b) The end of the foreign scene because IdrA just wins all of them (which is stupid and not likely to happen)
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On June 28 2009 00:28 G5 wrote: obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone.
But then why should other progamers be restricted? ;;
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On June 28 2009 00:40 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 00:28 G5 wrote: obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone. But then why should other progamers be restricted? ;; who you have in mind?
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On June 28 2009 00:40 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 00:28 G5 wrote: obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone. But then why should other progamers be restricted? ;;
because their korean? the whole point of this topic is if IdrA should be allowed it FOREIGN tournaments.
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He should be allowed to play, not because of something silly like "he's bottom of B-team" or "he's pro in Korea so he's not foreigner" or anything like that, but because people want to see him play.
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On June 28 2009 00:40 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 00:28 G5 wrote: obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone. But then why should other progamers be restricted? ;; I don't think any progamers, Korean or not should be restricted from any international tournament. I doubt high level Korean progamers would join foreign tournaments anyway.
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Nony had this chance, Draco had it also, as stated above.
I really don't see any reason why he should be banned from tourneys. He is the first one who succeeded in Korea so far, fair play to him. It should be seen as a challenge by the foreign community. Who can bash Idra?
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On June 28 2009 00:44 Pads wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 00:40 maybenexttime wrote:On June 28 2009 00:28 G5 wrote: obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone. But then why should other progamers be restricted? ;; because their korean? the whole point of this topic is if IdrA should be allowed it FOREIGN tournaments.
Foreign vs Korean is a stupid distinction. Koreans aren't magically better, they are better because they have a professional organization that supports 10 hour a day training of the best players. What has really been meant by "Korean" was always "Korean professionals", not Korean nationality. Now that Idra is a professional, he's more Korean than Foreign by the implied definitions.
I think people like to see him play in foreign tournaments because they can't see him play in Korea, and everyone wants to know how he's doing. Starcraft's days are numbered anyways, with Starcraft 2 less than a year away, so frankly I think it's fine for him to participate in foreign tournaments for everyone's entertainment. It's not like he has a chance to make A-team and be a regular in Proleague before Starcraft 2 takes over, so we have no other way to see if professional training improved his game.
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At this point I dont think it matters much. If anything IdrA brings more attention (be it good or bad) to the e-sports scene, which in the end helps Starcraft become more popular. SC 2 is out soon and I expect all foreign SC tournaments to die out almost immediately.
Once starcraft 2 hits it will be up to American companies to start their own teams.
Heres to hoping that they do.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant
This.
I picked no, because Idras in Korea getting special training while other players only play a few hours a day and trying their best while hes getting gosu Korean advice...
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On June 28 2009 01:15 Clasic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant This. I picked no, because Idras in Korea getting special training while other players only play a few hours a day and trying their best while hes getting gosu Korean advice... This simply means that if any foreigner wants to beat IdrA, he should get pro.
Since every foreigner wants to beat IdrA, they should be all pros.
And if they are all pros...
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On June 27 2009 15:36 SnowFantasy wrote: I disagree completely with that.
He should be able to compete in them even after he joins the A team.
I think i can agree with you in that point actually!
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On June 28 2009 01:09 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 00:44 Pads wrote:On June 28 2009 00:40 maybenexttime wrote:On June 28 2009 00:28 G5 wrote: obviously idra is a foreigner and should be considered one in all tournaments. Don't get mad at the guy or blame the guy for accomplishing more than any other foreigner in years and being able to play at the very top level of the game. If he rapes every tournament he enters, it's because he worked harder than anyone else / played better than anyone else in that tournament. There is no way you can hold that against anyone. But then why should other progamers be restricted? ;; because their korean? the whole point of this topic is if IdrA should be allowed it FOREIGN tournaments. Foreign vs Korean is a stupid distinction. Koreans aren't magically better, they are better because they have a professional organization that supports 10 hour a day training of the best players. What has really been meant by "Korean" was always "Korean professionals", not Korean nationality. Now that Idra is a professional, he's more Korean than Foreign by the implied definitions. I think people like to see him play in foreign tournaments because they can't see him play in Korea, and everyone wants to know how he's doing. Starcraft's days are numbered anyways, with Starcraft 2 less than a year away, so frankly I think it's fine for him to participate in foreign tournaments for everyone's entertainment. It's not like he has a chance to make A-team and be a regular in Proleague before Starcraft 2 takes over, so we have no other way to see if professional training improved his game.
I agree with everything you just said.
It's just that it seems a bit hypocritical that other progamers are not allowed to participate.
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On June 28 2009 01:35 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 01:15 Clasic wrote:On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant This. I picked no, because Idras in Korea getting special training while other players only play a few hours a day and trying their best while hes getting gosu Korean advice... This simply means that if any foreigner wants to beat IdrA, he should get pro. Since every foreigner wants to beat IdrA, they should be all pros. And if they are all pros...
Right, because there are so many American/European teams that offer a living wage for people who want to play Starcraft 10 hours a day.
Foreigners can't just "go pro". They don't have the same opportunity for training that Idra does.
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Eventually we all know Idras going to reach a level(which wont be long) as you can already tell by his results to where foreigners wont be able to take a Bo5 from him(the chinese might win a game or 2) thats when he should be banned from tourneys.
until then no
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On June 28 2009 01:35 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 01:15 Clasic wrote:On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant This. I picked no, because Idras in Korea getting special training while other players only play a few hours a day and trying their best while hes getting gosu Korean advice... This simply means that if any foreigner wants to beat IdrA, he should get pro. Since every foreigner wants to beat IdrA, they should be all pros. And if they are all pros...
like going pro is so easy as you make it sound
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i hope he will play a proleague match or so soon
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On June 28 2009 01:12 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Once starcraft 2 hits it will be up to American companies to start their own teams.
Heres to hoping that they do. Here's to knowing they won't.
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On June 28 2009 02:48 Fr33t wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 01:12 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Once starcraft 2 hits it will be up to American companies to start their own teams.
Heres to hoping that they do. Here's to knowing they won't. Here's to wishing that we aren't so negative.
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He is and always will be one of us.
His place is in our tournaments as well as whatever he does over there.
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he's great to watch and he's still beatable... Have him in every tournament as far as i'm concerned=p go idra
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Idra can only lose to protoss i cant see him losing vs any z or t in bo5.
Players that got chance vs him is Whitera Pj Legend Fenix Draco(when he is active) and few others maybe.
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Yes he should.
And to take it one step further I think korean pros should be allowed to play in foreigner tourniments as well.
Mainly for the selfish reason that I enjoy watching korean pros curbstomp foreigners
Besides look at PJ vs Savior at WCG. Sure its only one game out of many but skilled foreigners can compete against sloppy over confident under preforming pros
I mean did you guys see the games from the last valor ro8? Horrible. I think avoiding things like THAT should be more of a priority than keeping idra out of foreigner events.
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Why hasn't IdrA commented on this, yet?
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On June 28 2009 03:26 ActualSteve wrote: Why hasn't IdrA commented on this, yet?
because he probably doesn't care about these silly discussions that randomly seem to pop up about him. Just taking a guess here.
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Idra should be allowed in foreign tourney's if they let them. He will always be a "foreigner." He's got our blood, our own homegrown piss, our breadmaking skills.
I mean unless someone specifically says "no people in korea can play this tourney" or No "idras" Then fine. He is a great player who is beating people why not?
You can have progamers play in foreign tourney's if you wanted to, and if THEY wanted to also, I am just sure they don't care much for it because they consider their priorities more. Unless you are sea shield and you are charmed by TL attack.
I mean its really just up to the two parties, the gamers and the guys who run the games.
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On June 27 2009 22:22 Itachii wrote: Might be just me, but did the OP really want to start discussion over this pointless topic, or he just needed this for flame war? Answer is obvious, he should be allowed to particpate - hes not @ the level where he won't drop single game to foreigners, and even if he was - its not his fault others don't have the time and such means of training. But at the same times hes better than any other foreigner, at least considering his recent results - but that doesn't disqualify him, right?
I haven't flamed anyone, and I specifically said it's nothing against IdrA... it's just a discussion.
If anything, it's a compliment to his increasing skill.
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I doubt Idra's participation in the "foreigner scene" would actually draw any complaints from the foreigners who have to play against him. I would find the issue more interesting if the likes of G5, JF, Nony, Mondi, Ret, etc. were opposed to it. If his competition doesn't think there's a reason to complain, then why should you?
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Is Idra better than draco at his peak?
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United States5262 Posts
In Korea and Japan, they take baduk commonly known as the board game go very seriously. Kids start training VERY early starting in their grade school years and often become pro in middle school. Those who are training to become a pro are often forbidden from playing amateur tournaments. Why?
Playing against weaker opponents who have bad habits will give the trainee bad habits themselves. (Thought process. ahha this works against these nubs) (Reality: Works against nubs and builts a bad habit that good pros will dismantle and tear apart). Actually, this works for many sports and probably goes for SC as well.
Once IdrA starts winning back-to-back tournaments, I think he should resign himself from the foreign scene. He's proven that he's able to dominate them, so why keep trouncing on them when there's bigger fish to fry? It's not like he's improving himself. When I play table tennis, I try to avoid playing people who I know I'm going to because they have poor technique because I develop bad habits playing against them. Since they suck and will often mess up, my footwork gets lazy, I half expect not to return a serve properly. Yeah sure, I'll have to eventually play weaker players but when I do I don't try to win, I look for ways to improve my own game by playing them. (Example, focus on footwork and only use my forehand.) Korean Footwork (Ryu Seung Min 2004 Olympic Champion) Getting your butt kicked by a better player helps you improve faster cause you see how you lose points when they're forced as opposed to the other guy making mistakes.
I think IdrA is getting closer to Korean progamer level, a lot more than people give credit. Go Greg! Screw the amateurs, go for gold in South Korea!
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On June 27 2009 19:18 I3oxerfan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 19:06 Piste wrote: I vote yes ofcourse. Idra is from usa, he plays bw, so why not? Also he is a B-teamer so he doesn't show on proleague. And who wouldn't want to see such high level Terran play from a foreigner? Draco has been in korea too, same as nony. They shouldn't be able to compete in feroign tournament as well then. No. It is a different. Nony and Draco were in Korea. Idra is in Korea. obviously you don't read.
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On June 28 2009 04:11 igotmyown wrote: Is Idra better than draco at his peak?
Well draco did beat Midas who made it to WCG grand finals and thats big , Idra has yet to beat an A - teamer .
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what a ridiculous thread. half the time it's, "omg idra lost to a foreigner! he should leave korea asap he sux!" then 2 seconds later now, "omg he's too good for foreigner scene, he is progamer!"
just lol...qft what g5 said
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On June 29 2009 02:26 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 04:11 igotmyown wrote: Is Idra better than draco at his peak? Well draco did beat Midas who made it to WCG grand finals and thats big , Idra has yet to beat an A - teamer . IdrA has beaten Savior, Kwanro, and many others. You just don't hear about it.
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On June 28 2009 05:54 jkillashark wrote: Once IdrA starts winning back-to-back tournaments, I think he should resign himself from the foreign scene. He's proven that he's able to dominate them, so why keep trouncing on them when there's bigger fish to fry? This is true, but it's easy money for him so I doubt he'd resign himself
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Well, in order to determine whether Idra should be excluded, I guess we have to find out why we ban Korean progamers from foreigner tournaments in the first spot:
As far as I know, it has nothing to do with their nationality or heritage. The reason why Korean progamers are excluded is, that their skill outmatches the foreigner community's best player's skill by far. This is not because Koreans are naturally better at SC, but because of the rigid training Korean progamers undergo. Even Korean B-Teamers have such a high winning-rate vs top foreign players, that it's common sense to exclude them from foreign tournaments.
Now, Idra has been to Korea for more than a year now, IIRC. He's undergone the training schedule of Korean progamers and has become one of them. While he's certainly not untouchable, he's undoubtedly on the level of a Korean B-Team progamer, who, as stated above, are all excluded from foreigner tournaments.
Hence, the only stringent thing to do would be excluding him from foreign tournaments as well.
As a Terran player, I really love to see him play, but I find that it's just become more and more unfair, since he's just starting to dominate every foreign event he participates in.
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On June 29 2009 02:26 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 04:11 igotmyown wrote: Is Idra better than draco at his peak? Well draco did beat Midas who made it to WCG grand finals and thats big , Idra has yet to beat an A - teamer . You know Trap and shuttle are STX A-team right?
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On June 28 2009 05:54 jkillashark wrote:In Korea and Japan, they take baduk commonly known as the board game go very seriously. Kids start training VERY early starting in their grade school years and often become pro in middle school. Those who are training to become a pro are often forbidden from playing amateur tournaments. Why? Playing against weaker opponents who have bad habits will give the trainee bad habits themselves. (Thought process. ahha this works against these nubs) (Reality: Works against nubs and builts a bad habit that good pros will dismantle and tear apart). Actually, this works for many sports and probably goes for SC as well. Once IdrA starts winning back-to-back tournaments, I think he should resign himself from the foreign scene. He's proven that he's able to dominate them, so why keep trouncing on them when there's bigger fish to fry? It's not like he's improving himself. When I play table tennis, I try to avoid playing people who I know I'm going to because they have poor technique because I develop bad habits playing against them. Since they suck and will often mess up, my footwork gets lazy, I half expect not to return a serve properly. Yeah sure, I'll have to eventually play weaker players but when I do I don't try to win, I look for ways to improve my own game by playing them. (Example, focus on footwork and only use my forehand.) Korean Footwork (Ryu Seung Min 2004 Olympic Champion) Getting your butt kicked by a better player helps you improve faster cause you see how you lose points when they're forced as opposed to the other guy making mistakes. I think IdrA is getting closer to Korean progamer level, a lot more than people give credit. Go Greg! Screw the amateurs, go for gold in South Korea!
money
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Have you seen the games betwenn Idra and Yayba?
Pretty good games.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think its kind of unfair because really everyone is using 'foreigner' as a word for amateur not just literally foreign. Since hes professional i think everyone else should have a chance to win tournaments considering there's prize money involved. It should be like any sport, you'd never have a professional compete at an amateur event for money.
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Yeah I think that's a strong argument. Maybe Idra should be allowed to play, but just don't receive the prize money?
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He still needs to go through courage. I think that's where you can probably draw the line.
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On June 29 2009 03:57 HooHa! wrote: He still needs to go through courage. I think that's where you can probably draw the line.
No he doesn't.
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I don't really think he should. It's a bit unfair to others who play sc more as a pass time and not professionally.
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On June 27 2009 15:20 Failsafe wrote: I'm not sure what you could mean by this as other non-Koreans who have participated in the Korean professional Starcraft leagues have traditionally participated in their national tournaments (WCG for instance). Assem participated in WCG while he was on Hexatron, for instance. And PJ / LX / Draco all had professional experience in Korea while also continuing in the foreign scene.
Lastgosu from USA WCG also had a professional license from before.
I don't see any reason to for there to be an arbitrary distinction now against Idra. hmm, i believe i saw Koreans enter WCG as well... maybe it's because it's a national thing?
plus as long as you have a citizenship you get to represent your country so if anything that would be evening things out...
i think OP was considering small stuff when he started this thread
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On June 29 2009 14:58 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't really think he should. It's a bit unfair to others who play sc more as a pass time and not professionally.
What? It definitely is fair. Idra plays his ass off to be as good as he is. Just because he got better than the other players doesn't mean he shouldn't still get to play them. And if they play sc to pass time and not professionally, then it's their own fault that they lose to Idra and don't deserve to win these tournaments.
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United States13896 Posts
On June 29 2009 03:57 HooHa! wrote: He still needs to go through courage. I think that's where you can probably draw the line. That's just pointless. I think most everyone can agree that IdrA is skilled enough to have earned his progaming license now. There's scores of other korean pros who were just handed their licenses as well. It's a part of the system KeSPA has set up for players to get their licenses, and to be honest it is a very good system.
You can be incredibly skilled but there's still an element of luck in winning Courage and a player who could be furthering his skill by experiencing things like the GOM Classic or the Offline prelims shouldn't be hindered because he didn't get through an insane 256 man? qualifier or whatever it is that only happens every 2 or 3 months.
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On June 28 2009 05:54 jkillashark wrote:In Korea and Japan, they take baduk commonly known as the board game go very seriously. Kids start training VERY early starting in their grade school years and often become pro in middle school. Those who are training to become a pro are often forbidden from playing amateur tournaments. Why? Playing against weaker opponents who have bad habits will give the trainee bad habits themselves. (Thought process. ahha this works against these nubs) (Reality: Works against nubs and builts a bad habit that good pros will dismantle and tear apart). Actually, this works for many sports and probably goes for SC as well. Once IdrA starts winning back-to-back tournaments, I think he should resign himself from the foreign scene. He's proven that he's able to dominate them, so why keep trouncing on them when there's bigger fish to fry? It's not like he's improving himself. When I play table tennis, I try to avoid playing people who I know I'm going to because they have poor technique because I develop bad habits playing against them. Since they suck and will often mess up, my footwork gets lazy, I half expect not to return a serve properly. Yeah sure, I'll have to eventually play weaker players but when I do I don't try to win, I look for ways to improve my own game by playing them. (Example, focus on footwork and only use my forehand.) Korean Footwork (Ryu Seung Min 2004 Olympic Champion) Getting your butt kicked by a better player helps you improve faster cause you see how you lose points when they're forced as opposed to the other guy making mistakes. I think IdrA is getting closer to Korean progamer level, a lot more than people give credit. Go Greg! Screw the amateurs, go for gold in South Korea!
as if playing vs foreigners in tourneys here and there is a big influence factor compared to the 9 hours a day of playing vs progamers. afaik even progamers play iccup here and there. maybe parallel to your very good mechanics and builds it even helps you to rise your scouting and game adapting skills if you play vs opponents who can mostly only win vs you by catching you off-guard.
on topic question: if he would win everything from now on and always taking first place it would sooner or later reduce competition. maybe if the prizepool for 2. or 3. places would be high enough, old players would be still motivated. but in the group of new players and fans which identify themselves with different players and other playing conditions than the one of idras, the interest could decrease.
on the other hand sc 2 is about to come out. so imo not that big of a concern in the remaining time.
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On June 29 2009 02:58 I3oxerfan wrote:Have you seen the games betwenn Idra and Yayba? Pretty good games. + Show Spoiler +
hint of the result? where could these games be found, via rep or vod format? seeing the spoiler... + Show Spoiler +
gL
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On June 29 2009 02:48 d1v wrote: Well, in order to determine whether Idra should be excluded, I guess we have to find out why we ban Korean progamers from foreigner tournaments in the first spot:
As far as I know, it has nothing to do with their nationality or heritage. The reason why Korean progamers are excluded is, that their skill outmatches the foreigner community's best player's skill by far. This is not because Koreans are naturally better at SC, but because of the rigid training Korean progamers undergo. Even Korean B-Teamers have such a high winning-rate vs top foreign players, that it's common sense to exclude them from foreign tournaments.
Now, Idra has been to Korea for more than a year now, IIRC. He's undergone the training schedule of Korean progamers and has become one of them. While he's certainly not untouchable, he's undoubtedly on the level of a Korean B-Team progamer, who, as stated above, are all excluded from foreigner tournaments.
Hence, the only stringent thing to do would be excluding him from foreign tournaments as well.
As a Terran player, I really love to see him play, but I find that it's just become more and more unfair, since he's just starting to dominate every foreign event he participates in.
I was thinking about this same thing watching the sc2gg finals. What it really comes down to is what is Idra's learning style.
I studied go pretty intensely for 4 years, one of which was in Japan. During that period I discovered about myself that I learn best by losing. When I win, even if I dissect a game in detail afterward, I find it hard to learn from my mistakes because I wasn't really made to pay for them. Win I lose, my mistakes are shoved in my face and I adapt my thinking much more quickly and am able to focus on the issue exposed when I study. I came to love losing, because I know it helps me improve. Now, no matter the discipline, if I am winning more than 50% I get unhappy and lose motivation.
A lot of people learn like I do, but there are also a lot of people that do not. Idra, I get the impression, really hates losing and, my guess is, doesn't learn from his losses as well as he does from his wins. My best go practice partner in Japan was like this. He would get so frustrated reviewing his losses that he sometimes didn't even get to the end of the game. His wins, however, he could review multiple times and be very hard on himself, spotting even the smallest things that he could have done better.
If Idra learns best from his wins he should keep playing in the foreign tournaments until he starts winning the majority of his games against Korean B teamers. If I ran a tournament, though, I wouldn't invite him. He has gotten too good from what I've seen lately.
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On June 29 2009 16:04 Sosha wrote:hint of the result? where could these games be found, via rep or vod format? seeing the spoiler... + Show Spoiler +gL + Show Spoiler +he won 3-2 but the games he lost he didnt gg
Also i really enjoyed reading your post mucker.
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Yes, he has little talent so he can still be beaten :-) I don't remember Draco being kicked from foreiners tournament at that time ...
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Some of you guys want to actually kick the only non-korean pro gamer out of foreigner tournaments?
Are you fucking kidding me. It is our communities job to support our interest in pro gaming. Lets face it non-korean pro gamers in korea is good for e-sports. Unless tournaments make rules again bm and idra still breaks them then any tournaments that he can win, he deserves!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On June 29 2009 03:27 infinity2k9 wrote: I think its kind of unfair because really everyone is using 'foreigner' as a word for amateur not just literally foreign. Since hes professional i think everyone else should have a chance to win tournaments considering there's prize money involved. It should be like any sport, you'd never have a professional compete at an amateur event for money.
there's not really any regulations that i know of that would prevent them from doing so, but it's not good practice and in other sports the players make so much money that wasting time on an amateur level tournament is pointless
its not really sensible to compare idra's situation to what happens in other professional sports for that specific reason
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On June 29 2009 02:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2009 02:26 raga4ka wrote:On June 28 2009 04:11 igotmyown wrote: Is Idra better than draco at his peak? Well draco did beat Midas who made it to WCG grand finals and thats big , Idra has yet to beat an A - teamer . You know Trap and shuttle are STX A-team right?
/facepalm stx doesn't have a b team, so of course Trap is on the A team.
On topic, is it unfair for progamers to participate in amateur tournaments? Absolutely. If IdrA is allowed, then all of the great chinese players need to be allowed to even it up, or bring in some pro koreans. I also think that if IdrA was a great guy like NonY, that this would be more of a non issue, and people would root for NonY to dominate the non kor scene and win some money.
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On June 29 2009 16:49 cujo2k wrote:
On topic, is it unfair for progamers to participate in amateur tournaments? Absolutely. If IdrA is allowed, then all of the great chinese players need to be allowed to even it up, or bring in some pro koreans. I also think that if IdrA was a great guy like NonY, that this would be more of a non issue, and people would root for NonY to dominate the non kor scene and win some money.
Whatever you think of idra is not a very strong argument (troll?). Chinese players are sometimes excluded because people fear games are unplayable due to bad network connection, not their skill. They are not always excluded. In fact, IdrA was beaten out of a tournament (asl maybe?) by a chinese just a few weeks ago.
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On June 27 2009 16:08 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 15:27 arsonist wrote: I just foresee a point in the future where IdrA, even if he's still on the B-team, is going to wreck everyone... and when that happens, what's the point of having foreign tournaments anymore? We're already at that point. Here IdrA's results in each of the foreigner tournament series he's played recently (since losing to F91 in Liquibition): SC2GG Starleague: IdrA 2>0 Oystein IdrA 3>1 Xiaozi (now in finals, will play Yayba (games are done, but cast is tomorrow and results are still unknown)) Ansadi Starleague: (can't find a bracket, know he won two Bo3s to make the semis) IdrA 2>? ??? IdrA 2>? ??? IdrA 2<4 PJ (IdrA loses in the semis) Valor: IdrA 2>1 MaNa IdrA 2>0 Tarson (now in Ro8, will play Castro) ESL Major Series: IdrA 3>0 Mondragon (now in semis, will play winner of Arew/JF) ESWC Asian Masters Cheonan: IdrA 1<2 White-RaIdrA 2>1 Super IdrA 2>0 Tossgirl IdrA 3>0 White-Ra (IdrA wins ESWC Asian Masters) Zotac Cup 2: IdrA 2>0 MaNa IdrA 2>1 Yoon IdrA 3>1 DIMAGA (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 2) Zotac Cup 8: IdrA 2>0 Fenix IdrA 2>0 ASL-Radio (?) IdrA 3>0 ret (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 8) Zotac Cup 9: IdrA 2>1 Yayba IdrA 2>0 Shudo (?) IdrA 3>0 JF (IdrA wins Zotac Cup 9 - yes IdrA has won every Zotac Cup he's played thus far, barring an unknown smurf + Bo1 loss I've missed) Am I missing any series? Let me know. Also, an ASL bracket would be useful for identifying IdrA's Ro16 and Ro8 opponents and results there. Add it all up: over this period IdrA has lost two tournament series - one to PJ in ASL and one to White-Ra at ESWC (he went on to 3-0 White-Ra in the finals, putting him at 4>2 White-Ra overall at ESWC). He lost only 12 games over all of these series (not counting the two mystery ASL matches - 19 matches total, and 55 games). That's a record of 43-12 (78%). Basically IdrA is destroying the foreigner scene right now. The games I've seen him lose (PJ series aside) have been due to really dumb, obvious mistakes, while the games I've seen him win have been solid victories. Edit: lol Sosha, you have your "Bo3 showmatch" wish granted - IdrA whipped everyone but PJ, and I'd love to see them play again in a LAN/lagless environment just for kicks. wow, if this is true then im surprised... man i have high hopes of JF. but he wants to study than play SC, which i dont blame him at all.
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On June 29 2009 16:12 AttackZerg wrote: Some of you guys want to actually kick the only non-korean pro gamer out of foreigner tournaments?
Are you fucking kidding me. It is our communities job to support our interest in pro gaming. Lets face it non-korean pro gamers in korea is good for e-sports. Unless tournaments make rules again bm and idra still breaks them then any tournaments that he can win, he deserves!
No, actually I don't want him to be kicked out. I just pointed out that by our logic, he actually should be excluded to give non-professionals a chance. But if none of the top foreign players complain about his dominance and the people behind the tournaments don't care as well, then there is no problem with him participating. Personally it's all fine with me anyways, I enjoy seeing him play TvZ a lot.
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Everyone that voted yes are basicly racists or biased towards idra he is a progamer so i guess he is geting paid and got every chance of wining osl msl and even participating in the proleague.
Ok he is participating in amateur tournamens but why koreans are banned then? There are tons of progamers that are at the same lvl as idra or even worse and you are not giving them a chance to win some $ .
So with what logic do you ban korean progamers participating in the amateur tournaments and idra is allowed to play then? Only difference betwhen idra and some random korean progamer is that he is from USA.
Leave amateur tournaments/leagues to the amateurs.... progamers have their own world of tournaments with big cash prizes which AMATEURS cant even dream to participate and not to mention wining them
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IMHO Idra sholudn't be invited into foregin tourneys b/c he sholud be considered as progamer after spending over year in Korea.
Well, some of u guys are saing that he sholud be normally allowed to participate in foregin turneys because he earned it. But how he earned it ? Not everyone had opportunity to beg Daniel Lee for progaming licence and somehow get it. Look at Nony, how much he needed to prove before going to Korea and he barely got curage in first attept, and Idra? Hahaha. Idra is acting like spoiled kid that simply miraculously got chance to play with progamers and now is cocky in front of other foregin players that play SC as a hobby not a full time job lol. It's simply not fair, at least with his current attitude...
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people saying IdrA didn't earn his license have not read FakeSteve's epic muffintop of a post on the story of that mysterious license.
personally, IdrA can just do whatever the heck he wants, if he's allowed to these foreign tournaments and he chooses to do so, that's his decision, if he's barred because he has a license and has been hardcore training and is now obviously better, it's not like that's going to make him depressed, he'll play elsewhere.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Of course he should be playing in all the foreigner events. Even if he makes A team. Who gives a crap if he rapes everyone. He's earned it.
And you know thats gotta be the real answer, considering I'm the one saying it LOL.
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i could argue either way. it depends on so many things. what you define as amature tournaments, hell what you define as foreigner and everything... imo the dude is Korean now. in the last 2 years he has played enough starcraft to rival anyone in Korea. but also, he wasnt born there. what do you do? i dont really know.
i think its just good that he gets to leave the CJ house a few times a year.
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When Idra was losing games he was ridiculed. And now probably the same people want to outright ban him now that he is winning stuff? What if someone if winning everything without Korean training?
Other foreigners should also go to Korea or form teams and train full time if they want to beat Idra. That's competition.
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On June 30 2009 00:17 Glaucus wrote: When Idra was losing games he was ridiculed. And now probably the same people want to outright ban him now that he is winning stuff? What if someone if winning everything without Korean training?
Other foreigners should also go to Korea or form teams and train full time if they want to beat Idra. That's competition. Going to Korea is an opportunity only few gamers get. Idra clearly wasnt the most talented when he gone there, now he's taking the big moneys of the foreign tourneys. A lucky guy. It took 2 years to rise till the top, and by the top i mean only ~5gamers have good chanse against him. 2 years of Korea is 2 year practice with the best.
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So he should be winning now, what's the problem?
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anyone saying he shouldn't compete would be just trying to maintain the status quo
competition is good and would raise the skill level bar and get us a bit closer to the koreans
imagine if when boxer became one of the first sc pros (or the first? i dunno) other koreans would say "he's a pro so he shouldn't play in this tourney"... lol
he should compete even if he were #1 kespa
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On June 30 2009 01:04 LG)Sabbath wrote: anyone saying he shouldn't compete would be just trying to maintain the status quo
competition is good and would raise the skill level bar and get us a bit closer to the koreans
imagine if when boxer became one of the first sc pros (or the first? i dunno) other koreans would say "he's a pro so he shouldn't play in this tourney"... lol
he should compete even if he were #1 kespa
Your analogy fails, as Boxer would not have "Boxer-league" tournaments to move on to. It's an entirely different situation.
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On June 30 2009 00:17 Glaucus wrote: What if someone if winning everything without Korean training?
Other foreigners should also go to Korea or form teams and train full time if they want to beat Idra. That's competition.
>What if someone is winning everything without Korean training? then still all the other people can identify with him. new players can take this as a pattern and dream to get this sparkle themself and get as good as him one day or fans can dream that one of their compatriots will manage to catch up etc. but not if this guy is in one rare situation that nobody else has or only a few dream to achieve.
>Other foreigners should also go to Korea or form teams and train full time if they want to beat Idra. That's competition.
sure it would be nice to see this. but its doubtful that there will be much opportunities. i think having a foreigner in an korean team will always be the exception. there are just way to much good koreans out there which also can communicate with the rest of the team. so without the "interesting" part its no advantage for them to get more and more foreign bw players when the market is in korea and koreans identify with koreans.
and who is going to sponsor a full time foreigner team outside of it? first there must be way more interest in esports and bw then comes the sponsors and the opportunities to do this. but again on the long run i don`t think it raises the interest when basically one progamer is owning amateurs from everywhere in every tournament without a challenge. maybe only for us people who feel yay usa!
now we are because of sc2 in a transitional period. but talking generally it would be more ideal if you got room for every kind of player. those who dream of playing professionall like in korea and those who do it more like a major hobby but still love the competition. so there should be tournaments for all kind of players like wcg and also tournaments for the majority of people(amateurs).
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On June 30 2009 01:11 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 01:04 LG)Sabbath wrote: anyone saying he shouldn't compete would be just trying to maintain the status quo
competition is good and would raise the skill level bar and get us a bit closer to the koreans
imagine if when boxer became one of the first sc pros (or the first? i dunno) other koreans would say "he's a pro so he shouldn't play in this tourney"... lol
he should compete even if he were #1 kespa Your analogy fails, as Boxer would not have "Boxer-league" tournaments to move on to. It's an entirely different situation. There are no Idra-league tournaments for only nonkoreans either. After all, koreans are banned from non-korean-only tournaments and rankings (duh).
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Well, it seemed pretty simple in my eyes at first, but now its not.
If IdrA is allowed play in foreigner tournaments then other pro B-teamers should be allowed also, maybe they wouldn't bother with any foreigner tournaments anyway but it would certainly be neutral/fair and wouldn't place IdrA in some hybrid korean/foreigner role, alternatively they might only enter into the really big money foreign tournaments?
If that did happen, even if only in the big tournaments, I think it would help the foreigner community because, as Artosis constantly says and I dare anyone to contradict him, the best foreigners are about on a par with mid level B-team pros, and with the occasional big tourney B-teamer turnout it would greatly add to the prestige of such events, greatly enhancing the e sports scene as foereigners have a real, and indeed realistic, incentive to bump themselves up from mid level B team to be able to beat top B teamers.
I do have one question, what is the status of amateur koreans? Are they usually banned too? And what about pro teams feeder gamers houses like the NAME clan?
Wish I could take my No vote back now and replace it with the muddled "Yes times 100" answer that I have tried to get across above.
Apologies for my newbie ignorance if anything insanely stupid was said above.
EDIT I don't think IdrA's dominace will persist indefinitely if he is allowed stay in all tournaments, he will improve but he will also peak, in the meantime people will adjust their styles to counter act his style, not necessarily cheesy plays. This will happen because the spotlight is very much on him now, more than it has ever been, people will pour over replays and find weaknesses, they will be able to find ways to beat him without practicing 10 hours a day, that's the nature of competition. + Show Spoiler +
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no, he should not play.
quite clear. the only thing that makes him different from the koreans (who we wouldn't want to participate in foreigner tournaments) is his ethnic background and that fact isn't worth shit in starcraft when competing against each other.
anyone who gets progamer training (being locked up in a house all day forced to play vs monsters in starcraft) = out
one could of course discuss if it wouldn't be funny if he didn't reach #1 in every tournament, making excuses and thus giving us all a bit of the o so loved whine&drama. but no..
it would be like with wcg then.. the only interesting thing is spot #3 (#2 in this case) and downwards.
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"Anyone who practices is out" is sort of what that boils down into.
"You can only be so good, and train so much, before you are better than us and should be out"
Idra is becoming like this awesome pro wrestling heel who carries the belt!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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Everyone saying that Idra = Random b-team Korean is wrong, and I don't just mean his skin colour. Idra's 1 year of practice does not equal the Starcraft upbringing that many of the Korean players have had. There really isn't any replacement for that.
Some differences include being able to listen to Korean commentators which have been much better in terms of commentary value for many years. With the english commentator scene still in it's infancy there isn't nearly as much knowledge to gain through listening to english casted games. Being able to talk with (in native language) many many more top players, top analysis people (that might not be good players themselves, ie. SDM). What's one of the reasons that Day[9] and Tastless are as good as they are? Having the opportunity to talk freely about starcraft a lot with other high level players.
I could go on but to keep it short I'll reiterate. 1 Year in Korea for Idra is NOT equal to some random Korean progamer, and not just because of the colour of his skin. Idra's 1 year of training probably isn't nearly the same as a Korean speakers 1 year of training.
A possible counterpoint to mine. What if a white kid was born and raised in Korea, what would his placement in the foreigner scene be? I say he should be disallowed from the foreign amateur tournaments (like Koreans are today) if he were a pro-gamer.
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On June 30 2009 00:05 Rekrul wrote: Of course he should be playing in all the foreigner events. Even if he makes A team. Who gives a crap if he rapes everyone. He's earned it.
And you know thats gotta be the real answer, considering I'm the one saying it LOL.
I totally agree with Rekrul. Idra is a foreigner. He's training harder than most foreigners because he's living in korea. He's playing really well and winning tournaments because of his practice, and yes, extra resources . There's no reason he should be banned simply because he's trains harder and posts results.
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Yes, he should stay. The better players we have in the foreign community, the more competetive it will be. If he starts to really dominate, people will have something to aim towards.
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On June 29 2009 23:56 aznanimedude wrote: people saying IdrA didn't earn his license have not read FakeSteve's epic muffintop of a post on the story of that mysterious license.
personally, IdrA can just do whatever the heck he wants, if he's allowed to these foreign tournaments and he chooses to do so, that's his decision, if he's barred because he has a license and has been hardcore training and is now obviously better, it's not like that's going to make him depressed, he'll play elsewhere.
I haven't seen that post. Can you link us to the thread? Thx.
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I think he should still be able to play in foreign tournaments. If you watched the SC2GG Starleague Finals IdrA vs. Yayba (if you didn't... www.ustream.tv/channel/cholerasc), it was a very close set with a very exciting ending. However, since he has only spent a year in Korea IdrA has not yet began to completely blow away his opponents.
Overall though, he is not a Korean, which technically will make him always a foreigner correct?
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I think if its an amateur tourny, well, he isn't an amateur at the moment, so he shouldn't be able to compete, but if its a foreigner tourny, well, hes still a foreigner.
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It's not like they randomly chose IdrA to go to Korea.
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On June 29 2009 02:26 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2009 04:11 igotmyown wrote: Is Idra better than draco at his peak? Well draco did beat Midas who made it to WCG grand finals and thats big , Idra has yet to beat an A - teamer . Yea but even if i dislike Idra when he wins with his dull macro style it is more convincing than a cheesy 3 gate goon vs one fact cc by Midas ...
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There's really a simple answer to this question, and it lies in the answer to another question (which that answer will be fact and not opinion).
Were the guys like ElkY, Smuft, Rekrul, Nazgul, Legionnaire, GiYom and Assem allowed to participate in foreign tournaments while they were in Hexatron? (I Really don't know, didn't follow the competitive scene back then).
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On July 29 2009 14:22 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:There's really a simple answer to this question, and it lies in the answer to another question (which that answer will be fact and not opinion). Were the guys like ElkY, Smuft, Rekrul, Nazgul, Legionnaire, GiYom and Assem allowed to participate in foreign tournaments while they were in Hexatron? (I Really don't know, didn't follow the competitive scene back then).
Lol, TLPD Fail.
On a serious note though, he has a good point.
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ive just consulted with the powers that be: all of those who condemn idra "will be as if they never existed at all"
rip
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Katowice25012 Posts
lol at how everyone spent a year saying how IdrA will always be shit and now banning him from foreign tournaments is winning the poll
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On July 29 2009 15:07 heyoka wrote: lol at how everyone spent a year saying how IdrA will always be shit and now banning him from foreign tournaments is winning the poll Well, that was mainly due to everyone falling in love with Nony, while IdrA was being bad manner (and we weren't enjoying it back then) and he wasn't showing the progress he has now shown. Idra now is the only American progamer in korea, so a lot of us like him simply for that reason (and the hope that he suddenly becomes good >.> ). Also, he is winning EVERYTHING, which will always garner you fans .
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On June 30 2009 06:25 Crimson wrote: Overall though, he is not a Korean, which technically will make him always a foreigner correct?
So it's about race; koreans aren't allowed because they are koreans and americans are allowed to play tournaments even though they live in Korea and trains with proteams?
People say that koreans aren't born with an innate ability to master RTS games, but they are rather "programmed" to be good with the huge professional scene over there. So why are koreans excluded from foreign tournaments: Because they are too good? No, because they are korean. If Idra can dominate everyone in the foreign scene like koreans do, but is allowed to play because he is white, this borders to discrimination.
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On July 29 2009 15:01 For_The_Swarm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 14:22 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:There's really a simple answer to this question, and it lies in the answer to another question (which that answer will be fact and not opinion). Were the guys like ElkY, Smuft, Rekrul, Nazgul, Legionnaire, GiYom and Assem allowed to participate in foreign tournaments while they were in Hexatron? (I Really don't know, didn't follow the competitive scene back then). Lol, TLPD Fail. On a serious note though, he has a good point. Not sure about Grrr, but Assem/Leg/Rekrul did, and I *think* ElkY/Smuft did as well
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On July 29 2009 17:16 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 06:25 Crimson wrote: Overall though, he is not a Korean, which technically will make him always a foreigner correct? So it's about race; koreans aren't allowed because they are koreans and americans are allowed to play tournaments even though they live in Korea and trains with proteams? People say that koreans aren't born with an innate ability to master RTS games, but they are rather "programmed" to be good with the huge professional scene over there. So why are koreans excluded from foreign tournaments: Because they are too good? No, because they are korean. If Idra can dominate everyone in the foreign scene like koreans do, but is allowed to play because he is white, this borders to discrimination.
This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Germany2762 Posts
if he behaves, he should be allowed to compete.
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On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant
He's not even close to progamer level.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 29 2009 14:03 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2009 02:26 raga4ka wrote:On June 28 2009 04:11 igotmyown wrote: Is Idra better than draco at his peak? Well draco did beat Midas who made it to WCG grand finals and thats big , Idra has yet to beat an A - teamer . Yea but even if i dislike Idra when he wins with his dull macro style it is more convincing than a cheesy 3 gate goon vs one fact cc by Midas ...
you should probably watch some starcraft sometime
idra's play style these days is anything but "dull macro", he's been beasting foreigners with big aggression
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Valhalla18444 Posts
alos idra is part of OUR COMMUNITY and these tournaments aren't "foreigner tournaments" because they include nonkorean players, they're "foreigner tournaments" because they're organized, carried out, and played by the nonkorean community, of which Idra is a long-standing, active member
the kid posts on TL almost every day despite practicing 13 and a half hours a day don't be rude to him just cuz he's good now
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I think the question can be asked whiteout insulting Idra or looking stupid.
But if you consider everything: There is no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to play. Yes he gets the best training, but uhm, you can't really hold this against him? Everyone is free to invest as much time and dedication as he wants to Starcraft.
As soon (if ever) as he becomes good enough to see proleague action he won't be ablte to play in most/all of these toruneys anyway. It's basically a non-issue. If he gets (way) too good he will have other priorities, if he doesn't he should be allowed to play.
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United States40781 Posts
Idra should be able to play in foreigner tournaments because he's non Korean. Idra shouldn't be able to play in amateur tournaments because he's a professional.
That said, I believe most foreigner tournaments should also be amateur tournaments. It's just the assumption until recently was that all foreigners are amateurs and Idra is a recent exception to that rule.
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it's not about the fact that he is american, its about the fact that he is a proffesional gamer, where as all other foreigner's are ameteurs and it is mostly their hobbie. If his training coaching with proffesionals shows that he has an unfair advantage over the other players then he should not be allowed to play in these foreinger tourneys.
And it does show, he is dominating all foreigner tournaments.
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are you serious? only people who fail at life try to ban those who are better then them simply to reach the prize. News flash mofos, if you cannot beat IdrA you do not deserve the prize, HE deserves the prize. I don't care if he roflstomps everyone in the foreigner community, he should be aloud to play every tournament he qualifies for, ESPECIALLY foreigner tournaments. This Pro vs amateur argument is bullshit, the second you receive a pro license you are a pro-gamer and thus all those who were given licenses or beat courage can't play in their own communities tournaments because they are considered amateur? gtfo.
Until he signs a contract which states he cannot participate in any non kespa sanctioned leagues or tournaments for money, then he should be able to play whatever he wants.
On July 29 2009 17:59 Vex wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant He's not even close to progamer level. He is a progamer, who defeats other progamers. how in the fuck is he not progamer level?
you people act like this guy is making hundreds of thousands of dollars off foreigner run tourneys, that were reserved for "amateurs" r u for rela?
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51141 Posts
On July 29 2009 17:25 littlechava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 15:01 For_The_Swarm wrote:On July 29 2009 14:22 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:There's really a simple answer to this question, and it lies in the answer to another question (which that answer will be fact and not opinion). Were the guys like ElkY, Smuft, Rekrul, Nazgul, Legionnaire, GiYom and Assem allowed to participate in foreign tournaments while they were in Hexatron? (I Really don't know, didn't follow the competitive scene back then). Lol, TLPD Fail. On a serious note though, he has a good point. Not sure about Grrr, but Assem/Leg/Rekrul did, and I *think* ElkY/Smuft did as well
they didn't participate as much as idra does comparatively today, because the foreign tournaments back then didn't provide 'good' prizes (TLT was an exception I guess)
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On July 29 2009 19:08 Etherone wrote:are you serious? only people who fail at life try to ban those who are better then them simply to reach the prize. News flash mofos, if you cannot beat IdrA you do not deserve the prize, HE deserves the prize. I don't care if he roflstomps everyone in the foreigner community, he should be aloud to play every tournament he qualifies for, ESPECIALLY foreigner tournaments. This Pro vs amateur argument is bullshit, the second you receive a pro license you are a pro-gamer and thus all those who were given licenses or beat courage can't play in their own communities tournaments because they are considered amateur? gtfo. Until he signs a contract which states he cannot participate in any non kespa sanctioned leagues or tournaments for money, then he should be able to play whatever he wants. Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 17:59 Vex wrote:On June 27 2009 15:20 AlwaysGG wrote: lol i don't think idra wud join A-team any time soon not even when sc2 come out.
i have nothing against him but the gap between korean and foreigner is still very significant He's not even close to progamer level. He is a progamer, who defeats other progamers. how in the fuck is he not progamer level? you people act like this guy is making hundreds of thousands of dollars off foreigner run tourneys, that were reserved for "amateurs" r u for rela?
are u for real?
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It has always been my opinion that someone who leaves behind his home and friends deserves a bit of an advantage over the others. We owe him that much.
Back when the TLTournaments were running foreigners in Korea often participated. It adds to the entertainment factor for followers as well as to the quality of the tournament. Is it unfair? I'm not sure, what's stopping other foreigners from doing the same? A lot has been sacrificed that they are unwilling to put up with.
Idra is part of TL. Idra is good for viewers. Idra has left behind a life to pursue a the life of a progamer. He barely even made a TV appearance and you want to deny him from foreign tournaments that just seems way too much of a setback for him. I could understand if he was winning OSL and MSL's left and right, but for him playing foreigner tournaments actually is very important to him. What else does he have to look forward to, team practice? Who knows if people will still choose to go live in Korea if that means we deny them from our tournaments. They don't stand much of a chance over there and are denied participation in the others. Poor deal.
On July 29 2009 19:12 GTR wrote: they didn't participate as much as idra does comparatively today, because the foreign tournaments back then didn't provide 'good' prizes (TLT was an exception I guess)
Giyom didn't care enough to bother playing them but was definitely invited to foreigner tournaments. Team Liquid was hosting the Team Liquid Invitationals (TL1, 2 and 3) in the period Smuft, Elky and possibly Legionnaire were in Korea and they were invited every time and played most of them (see Liquipedia). All of them also participated in TLT (TL4) I think. These days the prizes of online foreign tournaments are much higher than back then, but even though that might be so, the prestige was still there for everyone to bother participating and practicing for.
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Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become.
I mean, I don't mind it, and actually support both Idra as well as any progamer to play in these tournaments, but don't try dressing up the issue in different ways. All I see is people banning koreans for being korean, not being a "pro", since white man gets to play despite being one.
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On July 29 2009 19:40 psion0011 wrote: Not sure what you're getting at. There are plenty of Korean progamers who have a license but are delegated to washing dishes for the star players. If he's unhappy pursuing a career in being a pro it's not the amateur community's job to make him feel better by being fodder for him, in my opinion at least.
Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become. It is about 20 times more accepted and easier in Korea to pursue such a career. Washing dishes or not. You seriously don't see the difference between a Korean playing in a PC bang day in day out and an American kid who leaves everything behind to move to a country where he doesn't speak the language? The Korean will create a social network int he PC bang and make friends he will meet up with online, while he is pursuing a career that is looked up to by a lot of people. The situations are just not the same at all no matter if you argue that it is their choice to do so. So what if it is their choice.
The social structure and acceptance of e-sports in Korea are so enormously different from anywhere else in the world that being Korean is a huge advantage, which is indeed a race issue. It is no coincidence Idra nor any of the foreigners can keep up with the top Koreans anymore after the game is 10 years old. Koreans have lived their whole life in a country where being a progamer is looked up to enough to make it worthwhile. Being there for 3 years does not put you on equals with the players born and raised there anymore. It used to be different when the skill level was lower and inventiveness was more important than mass practice. 3 years would have made a huge difference back then.
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Hes not unbeatable, hes just been on a little winning streak lately.
I really believe players like White Ra, JF, Deska, BRAT_OK could probably win 50% of the time vs him. Esp Brat, he is turning super sayien lately. Best vulture micro of any non korean.
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On July 29 2009 19:40 psion0011 wrote: Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become.
I mean, I don't mind it, and actually support both Idra as well as any progamer to play in these tournaments, but don't try dressing up the issue in different ways. All I see is people banning koreans for being korean, not being a "pro", since white man gets to play despite being one.
no you fail to understand that IdrA has not lived his whole life or SC career in Korea, in fact Idra does not speak korean.
Foreigners who compete against him are not fodder, they get the opportunity to play against a top level player, which is always a good learning experience. I am very glad he gets a few extra dollar on the side winning these tournaments, I do not know the exact terms of his contract but he probably does not a lot. He has had to pickup and walk into a brand new country whose language, culture and work ethic are completely foreign to him, and have broken players before.
He deserves our support, even though is an ass ingame, and he is doing a lot for the foreigner community although some of you don't realize it.
and fyiy I do not "like" idra, and i sure as hell am not a fan boy, but i respect what he has to go through, and realize he is the only foreigner out there who stands a chance.
hate him all you want for his retarded outbursts and extreme arrogance, but do not bring ignorance and blind hate with you everywhere you post.
edit: On July 29 2009 19:49 Skyze wrote: Hes not unbeatable, hes just been on a little winning streak lately.
I really believe players like White Ra, JF, Deska, BRAT_OK could probably win 50% of the time vs him. Esp Brat, he is turning super sayien lately. Best vulture micro of any non korean.
it's not a little winning streak, don't kid yourself, jf is partially inactive, and white_ra and Brat_ok would definitely lose way more than 50% against idra, even Ret would lose more than 50% as of now.
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Increase second prize in tournaments :D.
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On July 29 2009 19:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 19:40 psion0011 wrote: Not sure what you're getting at. There are plenty of Korean progamers who have a license but are delegated to washing dishes for the star players. If he's unhappy pursuing a career in being a pro it's not the amateur community's job to make him feel better by being fodder for him, in my opinion at least.
Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become. It is about 20 times more accepted and easier in Korea to pursue such a career. Washing dishes or not. You seriously don't see the difference between a Korean playing in a PC bang day in day out and an American kid who leaves everything behind to move to a country where he doesn't speak the language? The Korean will create a social network int he PC bang and make friends he will meet up with online, while he is pursuing a career that is looked up to by a lot of people. The situations are just not the same at all no matter if you argue that it is their choice to do so. So what if it is their choice. The social structure and acceptance of e-sports in Korea are so enormously different from anywhere else in the world that being Korean is a huge advantage, which is indeed a race issue. It is no coincidence Idra nor any of the foreigners can keep up with the top Koreans anymore after the game is 10 years old. Koreans have lived their whole life in a country where being a progamer is looked up to enough to make it worthwhile. Being there for 3 years does not put you on equals with the players born and raised there anymore. It used to be different when the skill level was lower and inventiveness was more important than mass practice. 3 years would have made a huge difference back then.
So it's a problem of skill? Korean progamers are not unbeatable either. We saw plenty of them lose in a Bo1 in the foreigner vs pro series on scforall.
I'm just saying, be consistent in your rules. If you let Idra play (which I support), there is no reason to not let other koreans play. They would also bring perks like getting "the opportunity to play against a top level player", or whatever you guys are saying. I understand the sob story, but what if there was some loser korean progamer who grew up with no friends and never talks to anyone? Should we hear them all out?
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On July 29 2009 19:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:It has always been my opinion that someone who leaves behind his home and friends deserves a bit of an advantage over the others. We owe him that much. Back when the TLTournaments were running foreigners in Korea often participated. It adds to the entertainment factor for followers as well as to the quality of the tournament. Is it unfair? I'm not sure, what's stopping other foreigners from doing the same? A lot has been sacrificed that they are unwilling to put up with. Idra is part of TL. Idra is good for viewers. Idra has left behind a life to pursue a the life of a progamer. He barely even made a TV appearance and you want to deny him from foreign tournaments that just seems way too much of a setback for him. I could understand if he was winning OSL and MSL's left and right, but for him playing foreigner tournaments actually is very important to him. What else does he have to look forward to, team practice? Who knows if people will still choose to go live in Korea if that means we deny them from our tournaments. They don't stand much of a chance over there and are denied participation in the others. Poor deal. Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 19:12 GTR wrote: they didn't participate as much as idra does comparatively today, because the foreign tournaments back then didn't provide 'good' prizes (TLT was an exception I guess) Giyom didn't care enough to bother playing them but was definitely invited to foreigner tournaments. Team Liquid was hosting the Team Liquid Invitationals (TL1, 2 and 3) in the period Smuft, Elky and possibly Legionnaire were in Korea and they were invited every time and played most of them (see Liquipedia). All of them also participated in TLT (TL4) I think. These days the prizes of online foreign tournaments are much higher than back then, but even though that might be so, the prestige was still there for everyone to bother participating and practicing for.
hmm i do agree with some of your points here. It would be kind of harsh if he was booted out of all the foreigner tournaments as he would not be able too look forward to nething bar from practice. However it is still unfair for the ameteurs as idra is a pro and is dominating all of them in the tourneys.
IMO a compromise would be the best way, let idra play some of the foreigner tournaments, jsut not all. Give some of the other foreigner's a chance since he does have a significant advantage over them.
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On July 29 2009 20:09 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 19:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On July 29 2009 19:40 psion0011 wrote: Not sure what you're getting at. There are plenty of Korean progamers who have a license but are delegated to washing dishes for the star players. If he's unhappy pursuing a career in being a pro it's not the amateur community's job to make him feel better by being fodder for him, in my opinion at least.
Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become. It is about 20 times more accepted and easier in Korea to pursue such a career. Washing dishes or not. You seriously don't see the difference between a Korean playing in a PC bang day in day out and an American kid who leaves everything behind to move to a country where he doesn't speak the language? The Korean will create a social network int he PC bang and make friends he will meet up with online, while he is pursuing a career that is looked up to by a lot of people. The situations are just not the same at all no matter if you argue that it is their choice to do so. So what if it is their choice. The social structure and acceptance of e-sports in Korea are so enormously different from anywhere else in the world that being Korean is a huge advantage, which is indeed a race issue. It is no coincidence Idra nor any of the foreigners can keep up with the top Koreans anymore after the game is 10 years old. Koreans have lived their whole life in a country where being a progamer is looked up to enough to make it worthwhile. Being there for 3 years does not put you on equals with the players born and raised there anymore. It used to be different when the skill level was lower and inventiveness was more important than mass practice. 3 years would have made a huge difference back then. So it's a problem of skill? Korean progamers are not unbeatable either. We saw plenty of them lose in a Bo1 in the foreigner vs pro series on scforall. I'm just saying, be consistent in your rules. If you let Idra play (which I support), there is no reason to not let other koreans play. They would also bring perks like getting "the opportunity to play against a top level player", or whatever you guys are saying. I understand the sob story, but what if there was some loser korean progamer who grew up with no friends and never talks to anyone? Should we hear them all out? I would like to point out one word - be consistent in your rules, i mean this whole discussion is kinda irrelevant, because its up to tournament owner (organizer) whom will he let play in his tournament
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first of all we said we allowed Idra to play because he was not Korean so I don't know what you are babbling about.
Secondly if we deem it better for the tournament, for the watchers, for the players to allow Idra to participate we will make an exception. That's how we run things over here we *think things through* and make the best decision based on that. Not based on some mindless consistency that will make things worse. There is no sob story just a matter of fact of how it is to be a foreigner in Korea. It isn't sad and no one needs your pity. It does help them to have tournaments to play in as it helps us to have them participate. If we would have to say rule is x and Idra is the exception then that follows our rules perfectly and consistently. Might not follow yours though but then again this kind of stuff is what we built this website on so I wonder what works better.
So it's a problem of skill? Korean progamers are not unbeatable either. We saw plenty of them lose in a Bo1 in the foreigner vs pro series on scforall. Are you really that dense? Of course it's a problem of skill. People want to host a tournament for foreigners and if some Korean comes and beats them all with ease that isn't exactly what it was intended for. There are plenty of tournaments filled with Koreans out there and these foreigner tournaments can't compete with them in terms of professionalism, prize money, hype and skill. If you want to continue seeing foreigner tournaments then not opening them up for Koreans is the only way for that to happen.
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On July 29 2009 20:21 johanes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 20:09 psion0011 wrote:On July 29 2009 19:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On July 29 2009 19:40 psion0011 wrote: Not sure what you're getting at. There are plenty of Korean progamers who have a license but are delegated to washing dishes for the star players. If he's unhappy pursuing a career in being a pro it's not the amateur community's job to make him feel better by being fodder for him, in my opinion at least.
Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become. It is about 20 times more accepted and easier in Korea to pursue such a career. Washing dishes or not. You seriously don't see the difference between a Korean playing in a PC bang day in day out and an American kid who leaves everything behind to move to a country where he doesn't speak the language? The Korean will create a social network int he PC bang and make friends he will meet up with online, while he is pursuing a career that is looked up to by a lot of people. The situations are just not the same at all no matter if you argue that it is their choice to do so. So what if it is their choice. The social structure and acceptance of e-sports in Korea are so enormously different from anywhere else in the world that being Korean is a huge advantage, which is indeed a race issue. It is no coincidence Idra nor any of the foreigners can keep up with the top Koreans anymore after the game is 10 years old. Koreans have lived their whole life in a country where being a progamer is looked up to enough to make it worthwhile. Being there for 3 years does not put you on equals with the players born and raised there anymore. It used to be different when the skill level was lower and inventiveness was more important than mass practice. 3 years would have made a huge difference back then. So it's a problem of skill? Korean progamers are not unbeatable either. We saw plenty of them lose in a Bo1 in the foreigner vs pro series on scforall. I'm just saying, be consistent in your rules. If you let Idra play (which I support), there is no reason to not let other koreans play. They would also bring perks like getting "the opportunity to play against a top level player", or whatever you guys are saying. I understand the sob story, but what if there was some loser korean progamer who grew up with no friends and never talks to anyone? Should we hear them all out? I would like to point out one word - be consistent in your rules, i mean this whole discussion is kinda irrelevant, because its up to tournament owner (organizer) whom will he let play in his tournament Why is it irrelevant? Kespa runs their stuff however they want but there was still a shitstorm of threads over all the disqualifications. I thought this was a discussion forum for, you know, discussion.
On July 29 2009 20:25 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Are you really that dense? Of course it's a problem of skill. People want to host a tournament for foreigners and if some Korean comes and beats them all with ease that isn't exactly what it was intended for. There are plenty of tournaments filled with Koreans out there and these foreigner tournaments can't compete with them in terms of professionalism, prize money, hype and skill. If you want to continue seeing foreigner tournaments then not opening them up for Koreans is the only way for that to happen.
Funny you say this because after seeing the blog about Idra's recent results I can't help but feel this is the same deal except with a white guy, minus the professionalism of course. I wonder what the other players have to say on this issue (not a sarcastic comment, I'm just curious)
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AHA!
But that is where you are wrong. KeSPA follows their rules with hardcore consistency exactly the way you like it, and *that* is why they are so bad and causes shitstorms of threads.
Funny you say this because after seeing the blog about Idra's recent results I can't help but feel this is the same deal except with a white guy, minus the professionalism of course. I wonder what the other players have to say on this issue (not a sarcastic comment, I'm just curious) Ret thinks Idra should be allowed to participate because he is not Korean. Anything else?
Not that I think players should determine what is right and what isn't. Players' voices are always heard and taken into consideration but a player does not always have in mind what is best for a tournament.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 29 2009 20:09 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 19:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On July 29 2009 19:40 psion0011 wrote: Not sure what you're getting at. There are plenty of Korean progamers who have a license but are delegated to washing dishes for the star players. If he's unhappy pursuing a career in being a pro it's not the amateur community's job to make him feel better by being fodder for him, in my opinion at least.
Anyways I'm still unclear. Are Korean progamers allowed or not at these tournaments? If Idra is allowed to play, and those progamers are not, the ONLY difference is their race. Might as well just say "no koreans allowed" or "no pros allowed unless you're white" instead of "amateurs only" because that's what it's become. It is about 20 times more accepted and easier in Korea to pursue such a career. Washing dishes or not. You seriously don't see the difference between a Korean playing in a PC bang day in day out and an American kid who leaves everything behind to move to a country where he doesn't speak the language? The Korean will create a social network int he PC bang and make friends he will meet up with online, while he is pursuing a career that is looked up to by a lot of people. The situations are just not the same at all no matter if you argue that it is their choice to do so. So what if it is their choice. The social structure and acceptance of e-sports in Korea are so enormously different from anywhere else in the world that being Korean is a huge advantage, which is indeed a race issue. It is no coincidence Idra nor any of the foreigners can keep up with the top Koreans anymore after the game is 10 years old. Koreans have lived their whole life in a country where being a progamer is looked up to enough to make it worthwhile. Being there for 3 years does not put you on equals with the players born and raised there anymore. It used to be different when the skill level was lower and inventiveness was more important than mass practice. 3 years would have made a huge difference back then. So it's a problem of skill? Korean progamers are not unbeatable either. We saw plenty of them lose in a Bo1 in the foreigner vs pro series on scforall. I'm just saying, be consistent in your rules. If you let Idra play (which I support), there is no reason to not let other koreans play. They would also bring perks like getting "the opportunity to play against a top level player", or whatever you guys are saying. I understand the sob story, but what if there was some loser korean progamer who grew up with no friends and never talks to anyone? Should we hear them all out? Let's put it this way. We can certainly appreciate we're you're coming from on this matter. Indeed, we have discussed this issue numerous times in the staff forums (especially around the time of TSL). The rule for the TSL, which im sure you're referring to, was no Koreans on the grounds there are already numerous tournaments for Koreans to participate in (which foreigners are excluded from). Such examples include the semi-recent West-Clan Leauge (which S.G won, fuck yea!). Even at the amateur level there are tournaments for Koreans and as such we decided, for the TSL, that we would disallow Korean participation. This was a decision purely based on race, well, moreso a decision based on the fact that Koreans are already saturated with tournaments.
Chinese teams are also, strictly speaking, progamers. And yes, they are very very good. They are on-paw with the best foreigners including idra (possibly superior). If we were living in a world where China would cause no lag problems then we would no hesitate including them into our leagues (hence why we initially allowed Chinese participation in the TSL). SC2GG decided to involve the Chinese in their tournament and good on them for doing so. We have excluded them because of the lag problems and the incredible bullshit from both sides which comes bundled with that.
So why do we allow Idra to participate? He is a part of the community, for one. He was raised amongst us and is off taking the plunge in Korea like other have before him. Idra, however, is more determined than most. He went there with little skill and was frequently lost in tournaments. Now he's a fucking powerhouse because he stuck to it. No one complained when Draco was in Korea raping the shit out of everyone.
The only difference between then and now is the sum of money thats up for grabs (and the fact that it's idra, but let's pretend that doesn't matter). While Idra is very good, he is still no where near making the A team (correct me if i'm wrong idra) and is still a lowly peon being payed a meager salary in return for practice. Realistically, he has no tournaments he can participate and have a real chance at winning (e.g. GOM/Starleague qualifiers). He's still mortal. If he were able start making moves into the various tournaments (and see some tournament winnings) then it would be a different story. However, as it stands, he is not currently there. At the end of the day, 1k isn't a huge amount of money and this tournament was more about celebrating great starcraft than giving mass money to the players (although thats always nice too). Since the prize pool is pretty small, and the fact that many other players have looked like they could beat idra (castro, brat_ok etc) it's really not worth excluding a player who is likely to produce some great games just because he's giving it 100% in Korea.
If you don't like it, tough. Run your own tournament.
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On July 29 2009 20:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: AHA!
But that is where you are wrong. KeSPA follows their rules with hardcore consistency exactly the way you like it, and *that* is why they are so bad and causes shitstorms of threads. True, but the situations are not exactly parallel, since this causing the same amount of drama.
I guess SC2 is almost here anyways and this is the last "hurrah" of foreigner tourneys so there isn't much point arguing after all.
edit; I wasn't actually trying to make anyone change their tournament, just saying what I was thinking out loud on the subject.
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On July 29 2009 20:31 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 20:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: AHA!
But that is where you are wrong. KeSPA follows their rules with hardcore consistency exactly the way you like it, and *that* is why they are so bad and causes shitstorms of threads. True, but the situations are not exactly parallel, since this causing the same amount of drama. I guess SC2 is almost here anyways and this is the last "hurrah" of foreigner tourneys so there isn't much point arguing after all. edit; I wasn't actually trying to make anyone change their tournament, just saying what I was thinking out loud on the subject.
and i for one am glad you did, and in a coherent manner. now you see the other side, take what you will from the information, and form your own opinion.
what irks me is blind rage, and complaining, without investing anytime to ponder the whole situation, or sometimes without reading the tread.. different points of views are what makes any community strive, as long as there is some level of civility and coherence to the exchanges.
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Netherlands13552 Posts
The only reason why this is a discussion is because Idra shows an incredible lack of sportmanship by never respecting the skill of the non-Korean amateurs when he loses games. This is shown in frustrated nerd-rage calling his opponents skillless newbies and not gg-ing.
If he actually showed some class and if he would be liked by the community no-one would deny him to any tournament. Fact of the matter is that he's a pompous asshole and his Starcraft skill or what he accomplishes should not excuse that.
If anything I would not allow him because of the reasons stated above, not because he's officially a pro-gamer. I think the consensus is that he should not be allowed anymore once he joins the A-team, which I think is a fine way of handling it. I think gamers on A-teams get paid salary anyway and he'd be playing Proleague etc. so he wouldn't 'need' to play non-Korean tournaments anymore.
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for the people who don't think idra brings in viewers, look at the (debate) discussion this thread has generated
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On July 29 2009 21:04 Twisted wrote: The only reason why this is a discussion is because Idra shows an incredible lack of sportmanship by never respecting the skill of the non-Korean amateurs when he loses games. This is shown in frustrated nerd-rage calling his opponents skillless newbies and not gg-ing.
If he actually showed some class and if he would be liked by the community no-one would deny him to any tournament. Fact of the matter is that he's a pompous asshole and his Starcraft skill or what he accomplishes should not excuse that.
If anything I would not allow him because of the reasons stated above, not because he's officially a pro-gamer. I think the consensus is that he should not be allowed anymore once he joins the A-team, which I think is a fine way of handling it. I think gamers on A-teams get paid salary anyway and he'd be playing Proleague etc. so he wouldn't 'need' to play non-Korean tournaments anymore. I think this is an excellent point.
When legionaire was a fairly strong pro in korea, no one ever even thought of not allowing him to play in the small number of tourniments that were held. In fact it would be seen as absurd to not invite him.
Idra's complete lack of tact and a heavy note of arrogance are probably the only reasons discussions like this are comming up.
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On July 29 2009 20:31 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 20:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: AHA!
But that is where you are wrong. KeSPA follows their rules with hardcore consistency exactly the way you like it, and *that* is why they are so bad and causes shitstorms of threads. True, but the situations are not exactly parallel, since this causing the same amount of drama. I guess SC2 is almost here anyways and this is the last "hurrah" of foreigner tourneys so there isn't much point arguing after all. edit; I wasn't actually trying to make anyone change their tournament, just saying what I was thinking out loud on the subject. There also isn't much point in arguing because you got completely owned
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On July 29 2009 20:30 Plexa wrote: SC2GG decided to involve the Chinese in their tournament and good on them for doing so.
Not really.. I never came out and said "no chinese" (because I forgot honestly) but I've gone on record a number of times saying I prefer not dealing with the Chinese due to the latency issues, and I'd rather see them excluded from Euroamerican (yes, I think I made that up) leagues, and no Chinese applied for the ladder. Had one applied, it probably would've crossed my mind and I would've said something.
For the record, Artosis MSNed me prior to him and IdrA applying and asked if it was ok, and I said yes. From an organizer's standpoint, it was a no-brainer. IdrA is a high profile figure. He brings in people. Whether people like him and want to see him play, or people want to see him lose and BM someone, when IdrA plays, people tune in. Had I had my streaming shit sorted out, it was a perfect opportunity to draw people in.
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Yes.. since he's still a foreigner. He doesn't have the cheating Starcraft gene that all Koreans seem to have.
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Skipped reading the entire thread because I'm lazy, but where's the "it's ambiguous and therefore his choice" option?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 30 2009 18:19 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2009 20:30 Plexa wrote: SC2GG decided to involve the Chinese in their tournament and good on them for doing so. Not really.. I never came out and said "no chinese" (because I forgot honestly) but I've gone on record a number of times saying I prefer not dealing with the Chinese due to the latency issues, and I'd rather see them excluded from Euroamerican (yes, I think I made that up) leagues, and no Chinese applied for the ladder. Had one applied, it probably would've crossed my mind and I would've said something. For the record, Artosis MSNed me prior to him and IdrA applying and asked if it was ok, and I said yes. From an organizer's standpoint, it was a no-brainer. IdrA is a high profile figure. He brings in people. Whether people like him and want to see him play, or people want to see him lose and BM someone, when IdrA plays, people tune in. Had I had my streaming shit sorted out, it was a perfect opportunity to draw people in. I was under the impression that PJ and Never played in SC2GG SL? I may have the wrong tournament here... mightve been ASL? Regardless, some tournaments choose to and some do not.
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quit bitching and play better
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We all know how koreans practice, just continuous repetition. So if you want to beat Idra, get a friend, practice vT builds and just keep doing the same build over and over again, until it's perfect.
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On July 29 2009 21:04 Twisted wrote: The only reason why this is a discussion is because Idra shows an incredible lack of sportmanship by never respecting the skill of the non-Korean amateurs when he loses games. This is shown in frustrated nerd-rage calling his opponents skillless newbies and not gg-ing.
If he actually showed some class and if he would be liked by the community no-one would deny him to any tournament. Fact of the matter is that he's a pompous asshole and his Starcraft skill or what he accomplishes should not excuse that.
If anything I would not allow him because of the reasons stated above, not because he's officially a pro-gamer. I think the consensus is that he should not be allowed anymore once he joins the A-team, which I think is a fine way of handling it. I think gamers on A-teams get paid salary anyway and he'd be playing Proleague etc. so he wouldn't 'need' to play non-Korean tournaments anymore.
I agree about Idra being a pompus, annoying asshole and that being the reason that people dislike him and brings up this entire discussion.
However I don't agree about him playing foreign tournaments when he's a pro, because the only difference between him and fellow korean pros is their nationality. Surely koreans grow up with Starcraft but so what? Would we rather have a non-korean owning up foreign leagues than a korean? Seems like it. This is too much about nationality imo; if Idra is allowed in foreign tournaments, everyone below A-team koreans should be able to play too.
I feel like we are participating in creating an unwanted gap between the korean and foreign Starcraft scenes by acting in this manner. Everyone, no matter nationality, should be able to play tournaments unless skill level differences are too big. Idras skill level obviously is very high right now and he wins tournaments left and right, why is he then allowed to play?
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
There are valid arguments for both sides. For example many sports ban professionals from entering amateur competitions, the same argument can be made here. On the other hand I understand why many people want to see him compete.
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I think if you like him, or you like to watch good games you should let Idra play. If you are a ret fanboy or dislike Idra you shouldn't let him play.
I think those things matter more than the rights to play in a tournament. Wouldn't you let a programer play in you tour if he wanted too?
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Well this is surely a question that the organisers of each individual tournament should mull over? A one-size-fits-all approach may be a bit ambitious as the objectives and formats of the tournaments may be different (contrast the Highlander and Valor tourneys, one broadcast the other delivered through replays)
So for anybody who thinks he shouldn't play...ban him from any tournaments you yourselves organize by simply saying you can't have a Kespa pro licence to enter(As indeed Plexa said earlier, just really worth re-iterating), other than that there is not much point to this thread . + Show Spoiler + Right, that's my share of banging my head off of this wall. please hit me if I post again on this thread
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On July 30 2009 21:26 Carnac wrote: There are valid arguments for both sides. For example many sports ban professionals from entering amateur competitions, the same argument can be made here. On the other hand I understand why many people want to see him compete. Except amateurs don't get ANY money. The amateur golfer who came joint 5th in the British Open made ZERO money purely because he's an amateur.
These tournaments have large prize pools so they aren't "amateur" tournaments. Foreigner players aren't amateurs they are strictly "semi-professionals".
In any other sport it makes no difference where you train. Samuel Eto'o can still compete in the African cup of nations, despite the fact he has a clear advantage since he plays in Spain with top class professionals. Tennis player Andy Murray trained abroad but he can still play in the Davis Cup.
Not only is the "Idra can't play" argument ridiculous on common sense grounds since he brings in the most viewers, it's also ridiculous on logical grounds too.
Here's a brilliant example. Shutai Zhang won the British GO championship 10 years in a row, despite the fact he had trained as a professional in China. Since he has British citizenship he could compete and win the prize money.
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what's the big deal... despite his "progamer" training he still gets beaten by foreigners regularly. It's not like he's some unbeatable monster who dominates every foreigner tournament he's in..
he's not THAT great of a player, anyone who's that predictable can never be a true force..
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he can join amateur tourny i guess since he is a "pro"gamer but he's on the B-team. IF he ever makes it to the A team then he should be banned
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Will this be a bigger problem if Idra continues to win every foreign tournament he's a part of? He's already on a roll ...
Ppl say he's beatable but if one person starts dominating every foreign tournament and that person is already a pro and already has professional training and already is in Korea ... that wouldn't seem to be fair or good for the community.
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it is somewhat unfair because his training in korea has made him almost unbeatable on the foreign scene. He dominates all the foreign tournaments and takes away from the people who dont get the training that he receives
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gotta train hard to win tournaments
DUH
plus the only thing i wanna see is a rematch between f91 and idra
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On June 27 2009 15:27 arsonist wrote:Fair argument. That being said, would you think it was fair for ANY Korean B-teamer to join? I just foresee a point in the future where IdrA, even if he's still on the B-team, is going to wreck everyone... and when that happens, what's the point of having foreign tournaments anymore?
The future is the present, my friend.
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If idra were out it would be the same thing except ret would be the one dominating :O
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and before ret-idra, JF was dominating, there's always someone dominating it makes no difference, ban him because he practices more?
and most of you fools were calling him terrible a few months ago.
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idra is bad, i would 3-0 him easily. he should not be allowed in foreigner tournys
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On July 30 2009 19:27 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 18:19 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On July 29 2009 20:30 Plexa wrote: SC2GG decided to involve the Chinese in their tournament and good on them for doing so. Not really.. I never came out and said "no chinese" (because I forgot honestly) but I've gone on record a number of times saying I prefer not dealing with the Chinese due to the latency issues, and I'd rather see them excluded from Euroamerican (yes, I think I made that up) leagues, and no Chinese applied for the ladder. Had one applied, it probably would've crossed my mind and I would've said something. For the record, Artosis MSNed me prior to him and IdrA applying and asked if it was ok, and I said yes. From an organizer's standpoint, it was a no-brainer. IdrA is a high profile figure. He brings in people. Whether people like him and want to see him play, or people want to see him lose and BM someone, when IdrA plays, people tune in. Had I had my streaming shit sorted out, it was a perfect opportunity to draw people in. I was under the impression that PJ and Never played in SC2GG SL? I may have the wrong tournament here... mightve been ASL? Regardless, some tournaments choose to and some do not.
Yeah they played in ASL. Artosis allowed them to play in Stamina as well. It all depends on the organizer's preferences.
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The way I see it is based on the rules of tournament is weither Idra should play or not. If we define a foreigner tournament as a tournament for people who are not korean and are "representing" so to speak (like the Olympics), the country of South Korea, then Idra should be allowed to play. However, if we define a foreigner tournament as a tournament for people that are not "representing" the country of South Korea, AND are not progammers within the South Korean starcraft scene (technically people that participate in foreigner tournaments that have prize pools are professionals according to Merriam-Webster dictionary but thats an entirely different discussion), then Idra should not be allowed to play in foreigner tournaments. Really at the end of the day it comes down to how you define what a foreigner tournament is.
The argument that Idra should not be allowed to play in foreigner tournaments because he has progammer practice partners is a bogus argument because of two things. One, in any competitive sport, it does not matter where you train. Also, you can play basketball with the best players in the world but you would never get any better without true dedication and practice, something that Idra has shown that he can do. Two, with iCCup, top level foreigners have the ability to play progammers if they really wanted to and dedicated the time to do it. So while Idra does have a better environment to train in, he still basically has access to the same training partners as the foreigners do.
Really, I don't understand why people do not want Idra to play in foreigner tournaments, especially if they are Terran players. Idra knows alot of the korean build orders and foreigner tournaments are more likely to release the replays then korean tournaments. So then foreigners get access to korean build orders, its like, how are you possibly losing anything by letting him participate?
Anyways that just my two cents, not that anybody cares about it though.
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On July 30 2009 22:58 stk01001 wrote: what's the big deal... despite his "progamer" training he still gets beaten by foreigners regularly. It's not like he's some unbeatable monster who dominates every foreigner tournament he's in..
he's not THAT great of a player, anyone who's that predictable can never be a true force..
He has definitely been using different strategies in recent tournaments. And he is an unbeatable monster who dominates every foreign tournament.
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