[idea]Limit practice time for progamers?

On May 29 2009 15:05 Jumperer wrote:
avg pro football players get paid much better than these guys and I doubt that they practice 15 hours a day everyday.

On May 29 2009 14:57 Jumperer wrote:
after reading jaedong bisu interview I began to realize how ridiculous and unhealthy it is to play for 10+ hours a day. These poor koreans are ruining their life and all that for what? a freaking video game?

On May 29 2009 14:57 Jumperer wrote:
after reading jaedong bisu interview I began to realize how ridiculous and unhealthy it is to play for 10+ hours a day. These poor koreans are ruining their life and all that for what? a freaking video game?

if KESPA limits practice time to say 5 hours, I doubt nothing would change much for progamers. Bisu Jaedong Flash would still dominate. But now everyone have more free time to do something else with their life instead of PLAY all day.

this would also reward some of the old players like boxer who obviously cant play for 10+ hours a day everyday anymore. Foreigners should also benefit from this as well. Nony probably left korea because he doesnt want to play for 10+ hours a day.

On May 29 2009 15:29 p4NDemik wrote:
LOL dude don't compare this to pitch counts in baseball. The two are not even in the same ballpark as far as their effect on players performance as they get older.

They aren't burnt out - they just got older. Mentally and physically a 20 year old is always going to be more capable of playing SC at the highest level than a 30+ year old is.

On May 29 2009 15:23 Jumperer wrote:
look at boxer, iloveoov, xellos, yellow, reach, nada, savior, July and most old school players. Why can't they play like they play back in the day? Why is their multitasking crappier than younger players? They are burnt out, that's why. It's not because the competition got ridiculously better.

On May 29 2009 15:47 Jumperer wrote:
Last time I check Nada still have 400 APM and boxer still has his same APM as before. But when you press keys on the keyboards and click 5000000 times a day and stare at the monitor for 10+ hours you are going to slowdown no matters how old or young you are. Age can have the effects, but why do players suddenly play like shit and go into a slump out of nowhere? that's right they simply played too many games and they can't play to the level they once played anymore because they burnt themselves out by playing too many games.

Beside, it's not like playing for 10 hours a day is going to help you beat a talented player like flash or jaedong. Look at Idra, he should be winning every foreigner tournament since he plays more than everyone else in theory(from being a progamer in korea), BUT NO.

On May 29 2009 15:39 Polyphasic wrote:


yes it is

On May 29 2009 15:57 ArvickHero wrote:
Old school players got worse because they stopped practicing a lot/didn't adapt

Savior and Boxer both said in the bonjwa talk they stopped practicing a lot at the high points in their career, look what happened to them as a result.

On May 29 2009 16:03 alt.tday wrote:
^ Thats the most retarded argument ever. More practice= slump. Are you stupid? In starcraft theres no such thing as a burnout. And older doesnt mean you suck more. Age has nothing to do with it. And practice is the reason Jaedong and Flash are where they are. The only reason Idra sux is cuz he's a foreigner.

On May 29 2009 16:18 Jumperer wrote:
so it's all reflexes.

On May 29 2009 16:15 AttackZerg wrote:



Ok for one you don't know anything about starcraft so do not assume to call anything I have to say stupid or even question it.

Getting older means your less driven to play a video game for 10 or 12 hours a day. Are you joking me, Are You Stupid or just still a teenager. In starcraft there is such a thing as burnout, alot of the players who have retired or gotten back into form have talked about it. Best example.... [nc]...yellOw who got bored of starcraft and become a poker player/pimpdady and was never able to recover a portion of his skills, even though his teamates are swearing up and down that he is practicing, and yet still players terribly.

Idra is actually on the strongest b-team in pro gaming and is far from being the worst player on that team, you not knowing anything about pro gamers really shows in this "flash and jaedong are where they are because of practice" when in a recent interview flash says he only actually plays 20 games a day which is not alot at all.

No pro gamer has ever been able to stay at the top of starcraft, practicing 10 hours a day forever isn't possible over a long enough span of time, not enjoying life will eventually make you play worse and get less from your practice.

On May 29 2009 16:25 p4NDemik wrote:

Would you please re-read both your post and mine? You said: "... when you press keys on the keyboards and click 5000000 times a day and stare at the monitor for 10+ hours you are going to slowdown no matters how old or young you are." I'm saying that the slowing down is not symptomatic of 10+ hours of practicing, as you are suggesting, it is a natural process.

Obviously a slump is caused by a multitude of things. A loss of motivation, a desire to explore other things in life, slower reflexes, whatever.

On May 29 2009 16:41 alt.tday wrote:
So AZ whats ur argument, are you for cutting players practice times are against it?

On May 29 2009 15:50 AttackZerg wrote:


Also flash says he plays only 20 games a day and spends most of his time thinking about game situations. 20 games, 5 games an hour is only 4 hours at twenty minutes a game, not everybody is flash or bisu.

On May 29 2009 16:40 selboN wrote:
@Jumperer
You're going to have to find something else to compare to playing SC other than professional sports. Professional basketball/football players have talent. Sure, they stay in shape. But I guarantee they don't leave practice and go play more. Talent shapes professional sports, it doesn't shape Starcraft. To sum that up, you can practice your ass off and go pro in Starcraft, professional sports you can't.

On May 29 2009 17:02 ThugTerran wrote:
fame maybe but pussy? hahaha they all virgins for sure except oov ^^

On May 29 2009 15:23 Jumperer wrote:
baseball pitchers have pitch counts limit so they don't blow out their arms. These progamers need something like that as well if they want to keep playing into their 30s. Of course, they don't have anything like that now because like baseball pitchers in the 1900s, they don't know the true harmful effect of playing all day everyday.

On May 29 2009 15:47 Jumperer wrote:
Last time I check Nada still have 400 APM and boxer still has his same APM as before. But when you press keys on the keyboards and click 5000000 times a day and stare at the monitor for 10+ hours you are going to slowdown no matters how old or young you are. Age can have the effects, but why do players suddenly play like shit and go into a slump out of nowhere? that's right they simply played too many games and they can't play to the level they once played anymore because they burnt themselves out by playing too many games.

Beside, it's not like playing for 10 hours a day is going to help you beat a talented player like flash or jaedong. Look at Idra, he should be winning every foreigner tournament since he plays more than everyone else in theory(from being a progamer in korea), BUT NO.

On May 29 2009 16:41 alt.tday wrote:
So AZ whats ur argument, are you for cutting players practice times are against it?

On May 29 2009 17:22 Macavenger wrote:

Terrible analogy - at least if you want to actually make your point, rather than contradict it. Pitch counts in baseball are bullshit that's hurting the game. Back in say, the 50s-70s, long before pitch counts, pitchers used to routinely pitch complete games, and go out more often than once every five days - and they blew out their arms a LOT less than today's pitchers do. A lot of the old pitching records are never going to be touched at the rate we're going now because modern starters simply don't pitch as much as people used to. No one will ever come close to Cy Young's win total - in fact, we're probably already seeing the final generation of 300 game winners. The star power of great starting pitchers is greatly reduced as they almost never go longer than 6 innings. They don't get as much experience, they aren't as good, and it's less fun for at least some types of fans (me).

Hell even just going back into the 90s, look at the Atlanta Braves' rotation. They pretty much dominated the NL for years based on a massive starting rotation that routinely went deep, racked up CGs etc. Smoltz is the only one to have had any major injury problems, unless I'm forgetting something. That's from 15 years ago, when pitch counts were just starting to be used (I think, memory is a little fuzzy), and the technology for arm surgeries certainly existed, albeit not as effective as today's. But still, even with more pitchers pitching more then, you had less surgeries/retirements than you do today, from what I've seen.

Think Cy Young could have ever approached 500 wins if he were limited to 90 pitches a game, once every 5 days? How about Nolan Ryan and 5k strikeouts? I don't think either of those guys ruined their lives, and while they may have been exceptionally good, their workloads were relatively typical for their times. People can pitch far more than modern coaches give credit for. There's a recorded game (I'd have to go search my old baseball books for details, which I don't feel like doing atm) that ended in a 1-1 tie after 26 innings. Both starters pitched the entire game. Even if they were being exceptionally efficient, that's at least 200-250 pitches. I've also heard serious commentary by people in the sport suggesting that the severe limits put on pitchers in the minor leagues are detrimental to their long term stamina and such in their arms, and may actually be causing the (relatively) high rate of blown elbows you see today, by not allowing the body to develop under stress as it should.

I suppose the injury increase could also be a result of the "metagame" for pitchers changing to more of a fastball/power style than a control/tricky style - I would imagine throwing 95+ mph fastballs is harder on the arm than throwing 70s-mph breaking stuff. Of course, Nolan Ryan was a fireballer and his arm held up pretty well. You also don't have to pitch that way jsut because its the current trend - Greg Maddux is a great recent example of a very successful control pitcher, and I know there's a very successful closer (Trevor Hoffman?) who also pitches that way.

Obviously, limiting practice time in Brood War wouldn't have possible negative physiological impacts, but I think a lot of the other effects in terms of reducing fan enjoyment and stuff would be similar. The quality of games would definitely go down. Further, I would seriously argue whether this is necessary - the sport is developed enough now that we have a reasonable pool of retired and semi-retired gamers to look at, and their lives don't seem all that messed up. oov is married IIRC, Boxer apparently has a girlfriend, etc. Nal_Ra and The Marine are obviously doing fine as casters, etc. I haven't heard any stories of ex-pros turning into bums or permanently ruining their heads or anything.

On May 29 2009 15:23 Jumperer wrote:
baseball pitchers have pitch counts limit so they don't blow out their arms. These progamers need something like that as well if they want to keep playing into their 30s. Of course, they don't have anything like that now because like baseball pitchers in the 1900s, they don't know the true harmful effect of playing all day everyday.

look at boxer, iloveoov, xellos, yellow, reach, nada, savior, July and most old school players. Why can't they play like they play back in the day? Why is their multitasking crappier than younger players? They are burnt out, that's why. It's not because the competition got ridiculously better.

On May 29 2009 15:47 Jumperer wrote:
Last time I check Nada still have 400 APM and boxer still has his same APM as before. But when you press keys on the keyboards and click 5000000 times a day and stare at the monitor for 10+ hours you are going to slowdown no matters how old or young you are. Age can have the effects, but why do players suddenly play like shit and go into a slump out of nowhere? that's right they simply played too many games and they can't play to the level they once played anymore because they burnt themselves out by playing too many games.

Beside, it's not like playing for 10 hours a day is going to help you beat a talented player like flash or jaedong. Look at Idra, he should be winning every foreigner tournament since he plays more than everyone else in theory(from being a progamer in korea), BUT NO.

On May 29 2009 19:02 Whalecore wrote:
I am one of the few people who hope that StarCraft 2 won't require 10 hours macro practice a day just to be in the top 500 players in the world. Skill should be decided by creativity and innovation, not pure mechanics.

On May 29 2009 19:19 KrAzYfoOL wrote:
holy shit OP is a moron.

On May 29 2009 15:50 Jumperer wrote:
Better analogy would be overclocking. Better short term performance but shot for long term. Also, yes I realized this rules would never be implement but hey, I enrolled for a debate class for next semester and I thought I would argue with you guys to warm up

On May 29 2009 22:01 gravity wrote:
The teams shouldn't make their players practice so much anyway. I've read studies showing that any more than 40 hours work per week (as a longterm average - short bursts of harder working are ok) and your performance/productivity will eventually start to go down from burnout. That might help explain the slump phenomenon too, which is much more pronounced in SC than in most sports.

On May 29 2009 19:02 Whalecore wrote:
Ok I know this statement might force me to put on my fire(flame) resistance gear, but I believe the solution to this problem (which OP desribes) is StarCraft 2.

I am one of the few people who hope that StarCraft 2 won't require 10 hours macro practice a day just to be in the top 500 players in the world. Skill should be decided by creativity and innovation, not pure mechanics.

Hypothetically, I think if someone put enough time in it, they could make an AI opponent that was capable of beating 99,99% of the current StarCraft players. Just because the game is so mechanics-based. Imagine an AI that macroed perfectly, and also did the most effective build orders. That would be extremely hard to beat.

StarCraft 2 seems to be better at this point though, as the interface seems to be much more comfortable. The focus seems to be on gameplay rather than mechanics. I hope so.

On May 30 2009 01:00 perx80 wrote:
My parents have their own shop, its open from 8.00a.m. - 8.30p.m. daily, that's 12+ hours of work a day. So, I don't think 10+ hours of training is overly rigorous, considering it is their job.

10 hours of training doesn't mean you play games for all 10 hours. There are plenty of things to do besides playing games like going over replays, discussing strategies with your teammates and etc.

On May 30 2009 03:13 AttackZerg wrote:
I would also like to limit the amount of times that strippers and pornstars can preform a month. It is clear to me that although it is a small amount of time compared to 10-12 hours a day, I notice that they seem to burn out fast, and esp strippers & get really gross looking genitials. I recommend 1 day stripping slash escorting for every 5 days.

This will decrease the amount of strain that there buddies go through, not just on the poll, but on the poll. Can we make this a law?

On May 30 2009 03:09 chaoser wrote:


the difference is that your parents aren't straining their eyes for 10+ on a computer screen. Looking at a computer screen for extended periods of time has an exponential negative affect on one's eyes.

On May 30 2009 04:47 Jumperer wrote:
ITS OFFICIAL. I R TROLLER MONSTA

On May 29 2009 16:03 alt.tday wrote:
^ Thats the most retarded argument ever. More practice= slump. Are you stupid? In starcraft theres no such thing as a burnout. And older doesnt mean you suck more. Age has nothing to do with it. And practice is the reason Jaedong and Flash are where they are. The only reason Idra sux is cuz he's a foreigner.

On May 30 2009 07:17 Raithed wrote:

no its because hes an arrogant nerd, grrr was a foreigner and you cant compare him to idra bc HE ACCOMPLISHED THINGS.

On May 30 2009 07:17 Raithed wrote:

no its because hes an arrogant nerd, grrr was a foreigner and you cant compare him to idra bc HE ACCOMPLISHED THINGS.

On May 29 2009 14:57 Jumperer wrote:
after reading jaedong bisu interview I began to realize how ridiculous and unhealthy it is to play for 10+ hours a day. These poor koreans are ruining their life and all that for what? a freaking video game?

if KESPA limits practice time to say 5 hours, I doubt nothing would change much for progamers. Bisu Jaedong Flash would still dominate. But now everyone have more free time to do something else with their life instead of PLAY all day.

this would also reward some of the old players like boxer who obviously cant play for 10+ hours a day everyday anymore. Foreigners should also benefit from this as well. Nony probably left korea because he doesnt want to play for 10+ hours a day.

On May 30 2009 07:45 Jayme wrote:


Progamers = Job.

So basically you're telling them to limit practice time... but it's their JOB.

On May 30 2009 07:17 Raithed wrote:

no its because hes an arrogant nerd, grrr was a foreigner and you cant compare him to idra bc HE ACCOMPLISHED THINGS.

On May 30 2009 08:00 StylishVODs wrote:
Why don't we drop the bullshit: "It's just a videogame".

It's a sport.


Sure, its unhealthy in the long run. So is many other sports.
If you want to be the best, get the cash and the fame you need to work for it.

On May 30 2009 08:10 Piste wrote:

these days progaming requires much skill than at the grrr...'s time
many casual players of nowdays coulf beat grrr... with ease.

On May 30 2009 08:23 Jumperer wrote:
Those B teamers are screwed for life. getting paid 10 cent a day and having to practice 50 hours a day or get hit with a baseball bat ala old KTF coach.

On May 30 2009 08:29 DM20 wrote:


All their expenses are paid for by the team sponsor and most of the money they make is probably getting saved up. And lots of the retired progamers end up casting or coaching, so its not like they don't get anything out of it.

On May 30 2009 08:23 Jumperer wrote:
Those B teamers are screwed for life. getting paid 10 cent a day and having to practice 50 hours a day or get hit with a baseball bat ala old KTF coach.

On May 30 2009 08:53 Chef wrote:

B teamers only get room and board if I recall correctly. There's no money being saved up. But then, they also don't stay much longer than a year or two if they never get up to being A team do they?

I don't think you can say 'lots of progamers end up casting or coaching' when it's probably like under 30 total, and only the superstars really. But then that's sports. People who dream big either catch the wave to success and fame or crash and burn. They can go do normal work if they don't want to take the risks.

On May 30 2009 09:12 baubo wrote:
I'm not sure if it has been brought up, but what really separates SC teams and normal "I practice hard so I can get into the NBA/MLB/NFL/pro soccer" is that the latter is about personal decisions. Even if they get bad advice, these are still outside advice.

The problem with SC teams is that there's a HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST. B teamers and even lesser A teamers are incredibly important in helping the stars, or at least those who make it onto the proleague roster, practice. There lies a problem. As a coach who's main interest is the team, how do you deal with important practice partners who don't have a chance in hell of making it?

The important thing to consider is that coaches are respected people. They're like teachers. Kids usually listen to them. And if they don't look out for the kids, then there's a problem.I really don't believe that they're nice enough to look out for the interest of lesser player. And tell that player he should quit early and go back to living a normal life, for example. Instead, I'm sure the coach would rather retain these 2nd rate players in the interest of the team. Neither helping them grow, but neither letting them go.

In general, I have a problem with how the whole thing is structured. I liken it to college sports in the US, to a certain extent... Except at least US college athletes get booty and under-the-table money at least. These Korean kids don't even get their own room.

On May 30 2009 11:11 fearus wrote:
The main problem here is you young gen-y kids living in a western country baffled by this concept of hard-work because you have been living in an era of give me give me give me.

10 hours pratice is nothing for what they are doing.

On May 30 2009 11:16 DM20 wrote:


k,I'll get off your lawn.

On May 30 2009 07:43 Dazed_Spy wrote:
They should enforce a minimum time in which they are forced to practice, a reasonable hour, and allow the players to pick if they want to go further or not.

On May 30 2009 11:02 DM20 wrote:


Have you ever seen the movie Rudy?

Some of these kids biggest goal is to play one game in proleague.

Achieving your goals is very enjoyable.

On May 30 2009 13:01 baubo wrote:


Daniel Ruettiger got into Notre Dame, one of the more prestigious colleges in the US, probably because he studied hard and worked on his academics. Football may be his drive, but in the end he spent his time on things that would translate into later life success.

Surely you can't tell me that being a B teamer on a SC team for 3 years will help one achieve more success later in life, because of that person finally got a chance to play a proleague game live.

On May 30 2009 11:11 fearus wrote:
The main problem here is you young gen-y kids living in a western country baffled by this concept of hard-work because you have been living in an era of give me give me give me.

10 hours pratice is nothing for what they are doing.

On May 30 2009 14:44 Scooge wrote:


Maybe you should give it up and stop worrying about what other people do with their lives. No one forces these kids to join the B team. There is actually competition to even GET to the B team. Maybe they enjoy what they're doing and whatever they get from it is enough. Shocking, but success isn't defined as upper middle-class with a nice house, nice car and a family by 30 for everyone.

On May 30 2009 08:23 Jumperer wrote:
Those B teamers are screwed for life. getting paid 10 cent a day and having to practice 50 hours a day or get hit with a baseball bat ala old KTF coach.

On May 30 2009 08:50 29 fps wrote:
i dont think they play for 10 hrs straight anyways. they watch reps, discuss, etc

On June 01 2009 09:22 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Anyone remember when Silent Control passed the fuck out when he was about to play Gorush, cause he hadn't slept or aten enough? Yeah...the practice gives good games and all, but c'mon, we all know each and every one of us would be burning the streets if we had to work as long as they do.

On June 01 2009 09:26 ChoRds wrote:


pretty sure he was just really really sick.

On June 01 2009 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Pretty sure it was because he was practicing so hard [as he said himself].