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[Spoilers] The KeSPA Saga : OSL C Group - Page 15

Forum Index > BW General
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mart1n
Profile Joined March 2008
Austria7 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-14 21:04:13
May 14 2009 21:03 GMT
#281
i hope at least some people at kespa realize who ridiculous this is..

they should think about US - those who tune in and those who are the reason why kespa even does exist!!

we WANNA SEE GOOD GAMES - not getting players kicked out of leagues because of being guilty of typing (!) one character (!) accidently whilst having 400 APM and more

i'm too raged to find the right words in english
:)
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
May 14 2009 21:14 GMT
#282
On May 14 2009 17:31 RubiksCube wrote:
I love how people don't even know the rules and argue anti- or pro- kespa-rules.

Plus calling people stupid and than saying you can get banned for any chat but "gg" or "pp/ppp" is embarassing, because that just ain't the case.

What are you talking about specifically? You can get a DQ loss for any chat but "gg" or a request to pause. It is embarrassing, but it is also the case.
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
TW WiNNinG 54
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States250 Posts
May 14 2009 21:58 GMT
#283
U cant do anything about it, its just a dumb rule and the ref's have no choice but to enforce it. Why not just check it in pre-practice?
Keep Fighting Savior!!! U can do it!
KillForce
Profile Joined March 2009
Sweden36 Posts
May 14 2009 22:46 GMT
#284
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 14 2009 12:40 The Storyteller wrote:
Posted this in a now closed thread, but now might be a good time to bring it up again.

Dear KESPA,

I know rules are rules, but the rules currently in place are totally mixed up. Before making any new rules or changing old ones, you should consider whether they fit into one of these three categories:

1. Rules that make sure the game is fair
These rules govern actions by players that can influence the outcomes of a game, such as using a bug. In this case, the penalty should be a forfeit, whether the breaking of the rule was intentional or not. This is similar to a handball in football/soccer, where even if a player accidentally touches the ball with his hand, it's still considered a foul because it influences the outcome of the game.

2. Rules that uphold the image of the sport
These rules cover things like obscene ceremonies or lack of good manner that give the SC proscene a bad name. Most sporting bodies have these, and the penalty should be a warning, a fine or a temporary ban, depending on the severity of the act. However, the game should not be forfeited because no matter how bad mannered a player is, it's not going to influenece the outcome of the game (not directly, anyway). When John McEnroe flung his racquet around and all, he was fined a lot. However, his matches were not forfeited, because hurling abuse at the umpire does not influence the outcome of the match. Doing things like leaving the game without typing out should fall under this category.

3. Rules that communicate intent
These rules cover communication between the player and the referee and/or the opposing player. The whole point of these rules is to communicate intent clearly. For example, what is the accepted signal for typing out, what is the accepted way of requesting a pause. All sports have a set of guidelines for this, however, there is no penalty for breaking them. The reason is simple: if you can't communicate your intent and it doesn't get through to the other party, you penalise yourself. If you want a timeout in basketball and you don't make a proper T sign, the game continues and that is an automatic penalty. All sports are flexible with this rule as well. If intent needs to be communicated verbally, and the guy talking speaks with an accent, it would obviously be silly to penalise him. If he's understandable, he gets what he's asking for.So if a player types ww instead of gg and everyone understands it, there's no point in penalising him. If a player doesn't type "ppp" when he wants a pause, and the ref doesn't understand, then he doesn't get a pause and he penalises himself. If he types something understandable like "I would like to request a pause please", then it can be left up to the ref to decide whether he wants to pretend not to understand or not. Miscommunication is a risk the player just has to take.


Right now, the rules are getting mixed up between the 3 categories.

For example, a player typing something offensive as he leaves the game falls under category 2, and should not be punished with a warning or a fine. A player typing "ww" or "gg yo" instead of gg clearly falls under category 3, and there's no need to penalise. But under the present rules, EVERYTHING other than gg is treated the same way, which doesn't make sense.

The same goes for other rules, obviously.

Please KESPA, get this sorted out. SC can't be a sport without proper rules, and the rules now are anything but proper.


Obviously, in this case, both "mistakes" come under category 3. Typing "a", especially, was not going to affect the outcome of the game, and he penalised himself by diverting his attention away from his play.



This is a quality post right here, it really covers the whole issue.
gameguard
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Korea (South)2132 Posts
May 15 2009 00:01 GMT
#285
On May 14 2009 23:47 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I'm curious as to what's going on internally with KeSPA. Hasn't the organization been around for years now? It seems like these problems arose only very recently, within like the past two years.

And like many other in this thread, I don't see how changing the rule to "only gg or GG can be typed" addresses the issue of typing out early.

I mean, by the new rule, Backho can still prematurely type GG, but if he types zizi yO after losing he gets a forfeit loss?

It really, really doesn't address anything. And I'm not sure what the point of the new rule is.



If you type GG you lose the game. Even if you are 5 base to his 1 base, if you type gg or GG you admit defeat.

The reason kespa limited it to gg or GG is because there can be any number of variations of gg and they needed a rule to enforce the "typing out = forfeit" rule. Rules need to be specific. The no chatting rule was in place before the backho incident.

Obviously, they thought everything was very clearcut and there can be no controversy if everyone follows the rules, which is true.

What they didnt account for is that players can make honest mistakes and losing a game due to something so small is a bit ridiculous. Kespa will have to enforce the rules which are in place. They cannot "use common sense" or go on a case by case decision because that would do more harm then good. What they need to do is revise the rules to be more reasonable in its conditions and penalties.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
May 15 2009 00:03 GMT
#286
Why don't they just take a playing leaving the game= forfeit?
Sometimes, in a close game, if an opponent GGs, I keep playing until they leave just in case.
Jaedong
gameguard
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Korea (South)2132 Posts
May 15 2009 00:11 GMT
#287
On May 15 2009 09:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Why don't they just take a playing leaving the game= forfeit?
Sometimes, in a close game, if an opponent GGs, I keep playing until they leave just in case.


thats exactly the solution i came up with too.

Give some warnings for typing stuff other than ppp
Player who leaves loses.
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-15 00:16:56
May 15 2009 00:15 GMT
#288
On May 15 2009 09:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Why don't they just take a playing leaving the game= forfeit?
Sometimes, in a close game, if an opponent GGs, I keep playing until they leave just in case.

Yeah, that would make sense. Gameguard is wrong because the reason referees exist is to make decisions, so you don't have to make ironclad rules codifying every single possible happenstance that anyone could possible conceive.

They should make rules that disallow "disruptive behavior," or "unsportsmanlike conduct," or whatever other such similar things they deem necessary.

There was no problem before, (the one BackHo incident is not even directly related to this. The rules they made DID solve that problem, but only in the way that carpet bombing North Korea with nukes solves the problem of Kim Jong Il). I have not yet seen a game that was disrupted because of chatting, or typing ww or anything else of that nature.

BackhoHo's case was special, and he should be fined, or penalized by his team for being an idiot, or something like that. Luckily his opponent was sportsmanlike enough to give him the game anyway, since he was clearly losing, which just shows that these preposterous rules don't protect anyone from anything.

Edit: I'm saying they need to use case-by-case arbitration based on general rules and past precedent to make decisions, to make it clear why I am in opposition to the hard fast rules.
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
Zurles
Profile Joined February 2009
United Kingdom1659 Posts
May 15 2009 00:30 GMT
#289
Another reason why GomTV is the best single league, (IMO)

though the fact that many teams haven't entered disappoints me, I think good manners has plagued Kespa's system to the extent of bad manners.
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
May 15 2009 00:34 GMT
#290
nobody gives a shit about typing 'a'

OSL finals 5th match is gonna be a dq loss due to typing something out by accident.

liquibet gorush T_T
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
gameguard
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Korea (South)2132 Posts
May 15 2009 00:52 GMT
#291
On May 15 2009 09:15 Ancestral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2009 09:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Why don't they just take a playing leaving the game= forfeit?
Sometimes, in a close game, if an opponent GGs, I keep playing until they leave just in case.

Yeah, that would make sense. Gameguard is wrong because the reason referees exist is to make decisions, so you don't have to make ironclad rules codifying every single possible happenstance that anyone could possible conceive.

They should make rules that disallow "disruptive behavior," or "unsportsmanlike conduct," or whatever other such similar things they deem necessary.

There was no problem before, (the one BackHo incident is not even directly related to this. The rules they made DID solve that problem, but only in the way that carpet bombing North Korea with nukes solves the problem of Kim Jong Il). I have not yet seen a game that was disrupted because of chatting, or typing ww or anything else of that nature.

BackhoHo's case was special, and he should be fined, or penalized by his team for being an idiot, or something like that. Luckily his opponent was sportsmanlike enough to give him the game anyway, since he was clearly losing, which just shows that these preposterous rules don't protect anyone from anything.

Edit: I'm saying they need to use case-by-case arbitration based on general rules and past precedent to make decisions, to make it clear why I am in opposition to the hard fast rules.


im not disagreeing with anything here.
What im saying is that since the rules are stated in such a way, it doesn't leave much room for interpritation by the refs. The refs need to uphold the rules set in place. The problem is in the rules set by kespa, not the ref's poor decision making.
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
May 15 2009 01:41 GMT
#292
On May 15 2009 09:52 gameguard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2009 09:15 Ancestral wrote:
On May 15 2009 09:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Why don't they just take a playing leaving the game= forfeit?
Sometimes, in a close game, if an opponent GGs, I keep playing until they leave just in case.

Yeah, that would make sense. Gameguard is wrong because the reason referees exist is to make decisions, so you don't have to make ironclad rules codifying every single possible happenstance that anyone could possible conceive.

They should make rules that disallow "disruptive behavior," or "unsportsmanlike conduct," or whatever other such similar things they deem necessary.

There was no problem before, (the one BackHo incident is not even directly related to this. The rules they made DID solve that problem, but only in the way that carpet bombing North Korea with nukes solves the problem of Kim Jong Il). I have not yet seen a game that was disrupted because of chatting, or typing ww or anything else of that nature.

BackhoHo's case was special, and he should be fined, or penalized by his team for being an idiot, or something like that. Luckily his opponent was sportsmanlike enough to give him the game anyway, since he was clearly losing, which just shows that these preposterous rules don't protect anyone from anything.

Edit: I'm saying they need to use case-by-case arbitration based on general rules and past precedent to make decisions, to make it clear why I am in opposition to the hard fast rules.


im not disagreeing with anything here.
What im saying is that since the rules are stated in such a way, it doesn't leave much room for interpritation by the refs. The refs need to uphold the rules set in place. The problem is in the rules set by kespa, not the ref's poor decision making.

Ahh I see. I thought when you said

"Kespa will have to enforce the rules which are in place. They cannot "use common sense" or go on a case by case decision because that would do more harm then good. What they need to do is revise the rules to be more reasonable in its conditions and penalties."

You were siding with the rules themselves, not just having to enforce them when they exist. I suppose as a ref, if you are told the rules you HAVE to enforce them, as it's your job. But I think we agree there is a fundamental problem.

In any case, the interpretation of how things should be that I stated above is my view, and I think even if others don't agree with it completely, it seems it is the general line of reasoning.

It's too bad Kespa has no commercial stake in the foreign community, so we have no power except maybe a few members contacting them with polite requests. At least it seems the Korean community is utterly disgusted with the current happenings regarding the rules though. Maybe something will change.

Now if only GOM would realize $50.00, maybe they could prove their foreign-friendly, non-arbitrary rules system is superior...

But I want the "prestigious" leagues to be fun to watch to, not just "prestigious."

+ Show Spoiler +
I personally believe $50.00 is a price along the inelastic portion of the demand curve, meaning if they made it $10.00 for example, which is 1/5th of the current price, more than 5 times as many people would subscribe, increasing total revenue for GOM (and I assume the marginal cost of allowing more subscribers is fairly low, so they could handle the traffic).
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
May 15 2009 02:07 GMT
#293
AAAAAAAAAAAA
the throws never bothered me anyway
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
May 15 2009 02:22 GMT
#294
DQ was stupid, however i found almost impossible to type "a" by accident. Even if Gorush was spamming/warming you dont type enter+a at the start.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
May 15 2009 02:34 GMT
#295
This is so fucked up.
Brood War loyalist
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
May 15 2009 02:37 GMT
#296
On May 15 2009 11:22 Malongo wrote:
DQ was stupid, however i found almost impossible to type "a" by accident. Even if Gorush was spamming/warming you dont type enter+a at the start.

He got a forfeit loss in the previous game by typing "gg" while his keyboard was in Korean mode, so he produced ㅎㅎ. He typed "a" to see if his keyboard was still in Korean mode, but probably hit enter before backspace as he probably did the key sequence very quickly (my understanding of the events).
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4650 Posts
May 18 2009 06:50 GMT
#297
On May 13 2009 19:39 DragoonPK wrote:
Ok this happened now in the round of 16. Lets imagine it happening ON THE FINALS OF A STARLEAGUE where the game determines who wins or loses. Then something like this happens and one guy wins over the other just because of some crap about typing A Single letter in game?! This is outrageous. Boycott kespa everyone they suck big time!


It happened in a final with Flash where Flash pause the game himself. It's a lot more serious than that Gorush did, but it was a final so Kespa can't do shit.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
SoMuchBetter
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia10606 Posts
May 18 2009 07:56 GMT
#298
kespa strikes again
i think next month they need to be moved up the power rank another notch
AUSSIESCUM
TeamLiquid eSTROgeneral #1 • RIP
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4734 Posts
May 18 2009 09:16 GMT
#299
On May 18 2009 15:50 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2009 19:39 DragoonPK wrote:
Ok this happened now in the round of 16. Lets imagine it happening ON THE FINALS OF A STARLEAGUE where the game determines who wins or loses. Then something like this happens and one guy wins over the other just because of some crap about typing A Single letter in game?! This is outrageous. Boycott kespa everyone they suck big time!


It happened in a final with Flash where Flash pause the game himself. It's a lot more serious than that Gorush did, but it was a final so Kespa can't do shit.


Do you have a link to this game or can you tell meh which final it was? Would like to see that.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Xith
Profile Joined October 2008
Sweden104 Posts
May 18 2009 10:33 GMT
#300
On May 18 2009 18:16 Malinor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2009 15:50 [X]Ken_D wrote:
On May 13 2009 19:39 DragoonPK wrote:
Ok this happened now in the round of 16. Lets imagine it happening ON THE FINALS OF A STARLEAGUE where the game determines who wins or loses. Then something like this happens and one guy wins over the other just because of some crap about typing A Single letter in game?! This is outrageous. Boycott kespa everyone they suck big time!


It happened in a final with Flash where Flash pause the game himself. It's a lot more serious than that Gorush did, but it was a final so Kespa can't do shit.


Do you have a link to this game or can you tell meh which final it was? Would like to see that.

I think it was Flash vs Stork, GSI. I'm pretty sure that Tasteless was commentating it
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