EPTOn June 20 2011 01:37 shucklesors wrote:
less than a month ago we'd all choose jd..
jd
less than a month ago we'd all choose jd..
jd
but that was a month ago... and thats why we still have flash
[spoiler] ELO Peaks - Page 55
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FlaShFTW
United States10354 Posts
but that was a month ago... and thats why we still have flash | ||
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yes, and now tell me how well Savior did in the MSL in every one of those seasons and compare it to Bisu for the past year. Bisu's failures are twofold to an extent that no other #1 elo player has been (Elo on TL was implemented after Savior's dominance, I believe, but he most probably would've been #1, too), and that's where my argument lies. There's an abundance of players who had #1 elo while only doing well in one league, the only time I can think of someone being disappointing in both and still being #1 was Flash last season, and that was because he was previously the all time leader by an unbelievable margin, and he atleast took hits to his elo for both loses. Bisu's Elo is misleading, period. Bisu got knocked out of the MSL by the guy who went on to win the whole thing. Are you saying you expected him to lose no matter what group he was in? Given his form at the time I think thats a bit of wishful thinking. I don't really understand why you need everyone to somehow believe that Bisu is somehow undeserving of his ELO or otherwise not as good as it suggests. It doesn't change the fact that he is currently the highest performing Protoss and proleague player. Fan and anti-fan bias can be pretty strong, but really, I think it's kind of silly to argue this. At the end of the day, that number doesn't really mean anything. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I never said he wasn't the best protoss in proleague or whatever -- he clearly is considering he's about to get the win title -- this is a thread about Elo and I think it's fairly obvious there's something up when Bisu gets knocked out of OSL and his reward is being #1. The number has some clear value to it but it's left out plenty of games with plenty of importance. | ||
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prototype.
Canada4215 Posts
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L0thar
987 Posts
Flash temporalily losing his 1st place is apparently as big event as someone making a new Elo peak. And I have to agree, Flash is that good! | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On June 20 2011 12:41 L0thar wrote: I like how thread originally made for Elo PEAKS is bumped when Flash lost his #1 standing. Not one of his Elo peaks, just the current standing, which could be pretty volatile thing (and was in the past). Flash temporalily losing his 1st place is apparently as big event as someone making a new Elo peak. And I have to agree, Flash is that good! I'm pretty sure it was bumped each time Flash won a game (thus breaking into a new peak). This spoiled the shit out of people who had not watched the games live but saw that the elo peaks thread had been bumped. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2396 Posts
And I'm in total agreement, not counting prelims is a bummer. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: His Elo suggests he is the #1 player, which he clearly isn't, because our elo system completely discounts a series of important games that prevent Bisu from competing in future elo affecting matches. I never said he wasn't the best protoss in proleague or whatever -- he clearly is considering he's about to get the win title -- this is a thread about Elo and I think it's fairly obvious there's something up when Bisu gets knocked out of OSL and his reward is being #1. The number has some clear value to it but it's left out plenty of games with plenty of importance. His Elo suggests he has the highest Elo. Whatever conclusions you want to draw from that are your own. Also, he is like 80% this season, he lost two games to Flash in the last MSL and two games to Demon-Hoejja in this OSL. Yes he loses important games in individual leagues for whatever reason, but it's not like he isn't winning overall. Win title and win record. ;> | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On June 20 2011 15:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: It was Hyvaa, and yes, he's good in proleague. His Elo should not be that high because he got knocked out of an important tournament by a low elo player. Why? Offliners have never been considered official matches, they dont count towards official stats, kespa rank (correct me if I am wrong on this) or anything. Does the rank mean that Bisu is a better player? No... It just happens so that an unbiased ranking systems says that hes been performing the best in official matches over time. Nothing more, nothing less. The system have always been this way, is it flawless? Probably not, but I don`t understand why people are making such a big fuzz out of it, its not like its favoring anybody its just the way it works. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
People aren't making a big fuzz about it, I don't know what you think a big fuzz is but a dozen or so negligible posts in a thread about only elo isn't a big deal. Hell people don't even have the gumption to make a new thread about it, lol. | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On June 20 2011 15:59 Oystein wrote: Why? Offliners have never been considered official matches, they dont count towards official stats, kespa rank (correct me if I am wrong on this) or anything. Does the rank mean that Bisu is a better player? No... It just happens so that an unbiased ranking systems says that hes been performing the best in official matches over time. Nothing more, nothing less. The system have always been this way, is it flawless? Probably not, but I don`t understand why people are making such a big fuzz out of it, its not like its favoring anybody its just the way it works. u know whats a flaw in this system? even though jaedong won the series against grape and reality, dropping the few games against them lowered his elo ranking overall. why? because they're against low-elo players. having said that, bisu relies on preparation as you can see from his results in proleague, so if he actually passed prelimineries, we will likely see him drop a lot of games, which will in effect lower his elo | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On June 20 2011 16:11 saltywet wrote: u know whats a flaw in this system? even though jaedong won the series against grape and reality, dropping the few games against them lowered his elo ranking overall. why? because they're against low-elo players. having said that, bisu relies on preparation as you can see from his results in proleague, so if he actually passed prelimineries, we will likely see him drop a lot of games, which will in effect lower his elo This statement makes no sense. Individual leagues are no different from proleague in that he would have time to prepare for all of his games. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: His Elo suggests he is the #1 player, which he clearly isn't, because our elo system completely discounts a series of important games that prevent Bisu from competing in future elo affecting matches. I never said he wasn't the best protoss in proleague or whatever -- he clearly is considering he's about to get the win title -- this is a thread about Elo and I think it's fairly obvious there's something up when Bisu gets knocked out of OSL and his reward is being #1. The number has some clear value to it but it's left out plenty of games with plenty of importance. No. You're taking elo far too seriously, the best player will not always have the highest elo. It's simply a reflection of a player's performance in official games. Flash has played more games than Bisu and won MSL. In doing so he dropped some official games to lower elo players (not hard when everybody's a lower elo than you) this has a large effect on his elo because of how much higher his is than other peoples, that's the nature of an elo system. OSL prelims do not count to a player's official record and as such do not contribute to their elo. You're taking this much too seriously, we all know you're a fan of flash, the system is what it is and has been that way since it was invented; there's no need to argue about it. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I can't stand the posts that shove words in your mouth when you're just having a damn chat about a subject, we can argue and talk about it to we grow long in the teeth and there's nothing wrong with it. Especially when they top it off with "We all know you're a fan of x" as some disqualifier for why I shouldn't be allowed to post. Let me clear it up for everyone here who thinks I'm foaming at the mouth about this: It's not a big deal, but I think it's interesting. I believe that Elo's setup to not include prelims adds to it being a bit unreliable (It always has been). This was never a big issue because pretty much as long as I can remember, Elo's never been obviously wrong with who's in the #1 spot like it is with Bisu's current ranking. It is not a big deal, I know it is not a big deal, you do not have to assume and get on to me for making a big deal out of it. I think it is interesting, guys, so I like to talk about it. That's it. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
I am sorry for my misunderstanding though I recommend you reread your posts as well as they definitely didn't seem like interest to me. | ||
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For_The_Dream
12 Posts
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yes, and now tell me how well Savior did in the MSL in every one of those seasons and compare it to Bisu for the past year. Bisu's failures are twofold to an extent that no other #1 elo player has been (Elo on TL was implemented after Savior's dominance, I believe, but he most probably would've been #1, too), and that's where my argument lies. There's an abundance of players who had #1 elo while only doing well in one league, the only time I can think of someone being disappointing in both and still being #1 was Flash last season, and that was because he was previously the all time leader by an unbelievable margin, and he atleast took hits to his elo for both loses.Bisu's Elo is misleading, period. I know some people are giving you too much flak for what you're saying, but I do want to point this out. How is it misleading? It completely reflects his ELO according to the correct formula. Yes, he's clearly not the no. 1 player. I don't think the ELO "misleads" people into thinking that no.1 ELO = no.1 player, just that according to the formula, he has accumulated the required number of ELO points to reach the top (and avoided losing the said points in a catastrophic manner, like Stork or Fantasy for example). ELO is a factor in assessment and analysis - nothing more. It's a formula to keep a statistic on something that you really can't quantify accurately (skill) because as with any competitive activity, there are so many intangible variables beyond wins and losses. I get that you're trying to say that it's the first time the no.1 ELO player isn't the consensus no.1 player, and I would agree with you except that you're wrong: simply because Flash was no.1 ELO the past months doesn't mean he was the consensus no.1 player. When he dropped out of both leagues in what I consider an 'unfortunate series of events', several arguments could have been made against him being number 1, like, the fact that he wasn't in any individual league (an argument that Bisu has had to deal with for the past 2+ years). It's your opinion that he was the best player and while I share that opinion, it was never indubitable. Last season, Flash was in exactly the same position Bisu is in today, and while the word fluke can be thrown around it's still quite clear that he dropped not because he lacked skill (owing to the fact he destroyed proleague like none other). Same goes for KTY. This next paragraph isn't addressed to anyone in particular but just a cumulative statement of my thoughts on the matter. Flash was, and isn't defined solely by his ELO, and it's unfair to do the same for Bisu, or even Stork/Jaedong/Fantasy/anyone else for that matter. Stork and Fantasy are incredibly far behind Flash and Bisu (even Hydra). Heck, Stork is even below Shuttle (no offense Shuttle fans). But do you really think Stork's a bad player? Do you really think he has no chance vs Flash in a series (despite his history, it's illogical to give a definitive answer to this question)? TTT, I'm not putting words in your mouth (and I agree with most of what you're saying) but that bolded statement, especially the use of the word 'misleading' is quite inaccurate in the context of what you're trying to say. | ||
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