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ye what eri said, the "bw is dying" crying in sweden started very early, around 2001 in sweden when most of swedens top-layer stopped playing , swedens top site gamingeye started to lose alot of visitors etc ;p but it never really stopped dying imo until about a year ago, it really feels like there is very few swedes left  im not exactly sure how the other communitys are going but norway never really had one and neither did denmark, most finnish ppl stopped playing when DKNY (?) closed for good.. i know spain also had some problems with their community when the top-layer stopped playing aswell at around 2004-2005 , it feels like germany is the one holding everything together and its basically mondi who is the only oldschool left from the time of bw is dying.
i feel its the amount of active people in the community that makes a game active, not how many nabs are playing 3on3 fastest map ever $$$ by #¤)%#(%) guild.
Sc2 will be great community wise, i hope it will be a nice game to observe aswell so we can get closer to CS in events etc :s
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1584 Posts
Every time I meet a swede in iccup it's amazing since there are so few actively playing. But I don't know if the swedish rts scene has ever been really big, the FPS scene has been the largest force here by my experiences.
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I don't know whether the swedish scene was big, but it produced some of the best players.
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i'll be old crazy man playing forever
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I agree with OP in that I think the foreign scene does have the potential to appeal to an audience if marketed correctly. I used to think I'd never watch foreign SC given that there were plenty of Korean progames to watch with the top class players in the world.
Then TSL happened and it totally changed my view on things - the fact is the Korean scene is attractive to follow not just because of the quality of the players, but also because of the quality of the preparation, execution, and coverage.
TSL people busted their asses to make a great event from start to finish and it showed. Sure JF, Draco, Nony, etc., aren't anywhere near as good as Flash, JD, and company, but there were plenty of compelling elements to TSL. Remember Dreiven vs. Mondragon? Remember Brat_Ok's run and style?
The last point that I think people are really overlooking is that the foreign scene actually has potential to have games that are exciting in a different way from the pro Korean scene. The top foreign pros today are way better than the top Korean pros 5 years ago, and yet games from 5 or more years ago are still fondly remembered as some of the best SC ever, partly because the macro-timing-mechanical-preparation machine that every Korean pro has become today did not yet exist. It's fun to watch the near perfect play of a Korean pro, but it's also fun to watch a micro/strategy war with good but not perfect mechanics!
All in all, it might be too little too late, which is a real shame.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On November 18 2008 14:10 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 13:05 Skew wrote:
Lastly, Media is the #1 US team hands down. We could have played D O fucking W for the past 3 years, never playing a game of SC, still come back and destroy any other US team without a mouse. Our team accomplishments are based on the people who make up the team, not some random league finish with no prize. Don't fucking disrespect a nation's leading players and team just to make yourself seem cool. You just lost a lot of credibility with a lot of top players. Hope it was worth it. Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 13:19 MYM.Testie wrote:
Coincidentally, Media is the only US team. LOL
LOOOOL
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On November 18 2008 13:28 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2008 13:05 Skew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I guess there has to be one of these retarded posts every now and then to get me to come out from under the rock...
SC isn't dying anymore than it was since a long time ago. WCG has always blown, no body has ever cared that much about WGTour (and some of these other random sites, but I still respect their staff greatly for their effort), sponsors aren't coming or going any differently than they always have for the past 5 years, and the most important things that have happened in awhile (and are still here to stay) are ICCup and TSL. So TBH, as a player and observer, SC has only gotten better in my time.
Secondly, you just disrespected so many great new age players by making up some random stupid group of 'top foreigners' lead by IefNaij???? What? If you're going to make a list and want people to not hate you for it, it better not be this fucking terrible. And that was really, really terrible. The sad part about it is a huge majority of players in question probably don't read here (or wouldn't post if they did), so it'll just float around mind-fucking everyone who doesn't know any better. Give credit where it's due or shut the hell up when you don't know. Tired of seeing this crap go unchecked.
Lastly, Media is the #1 US team hands down. We could have played D O fucking W for the past 3 years, never playing a game of SC, still come back and destroy any other US team without a mouse. Our team accomplishments are based on the people who make up the team, not some random league finish with no prize. Don't fucking disrespect a nation's leading players and team just to make yourself seem cool. You just lost a lot of credibility with a lot of top players. Hope it was worth it.
L4D out in like 1 hour so I'm off to party woooooooooo! Nothing... Also in my list I'm not referring to Chinese players (since they have their own progaming they aren't included).
You dont mention any russians either.
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Part of the reason why the foreign scene has been dying is beacuse it has never had the community or coverage to create a big enough fanbase to keep the scene going and generate more players, more intrest and more events and more sponsors.
CS 1.6 have a great number of communities that keeps the scene going strong and this has never been the case for SC. No website has ever taken foreign starcraft seriously enough with regular events, coverage, updates and promoting the fucking scene, they just assume that since the players are not as good as the koreans no one has any intrest in them and therefor the quality of the coverage should be just as bad. Great approach.
The CS 1.6 scene would never have been this big as it is today without sites like geekboys.com, sk-gaming.com and fragbite.se that pretty much breathed life into the entire scene, worldwide. Today players and fanse worldwise go to fragbite.se to check coverage and results despite the website being in swedish, thats just how good it is. Its really up to the communities if they want to make a game grow. The fans will follow.
I really hope some new sites will take SC2 seriously and help push the e-sport forward. I really hope atleast ONE site takes responsibility when SC2 comes out and show where they stand.
"The scene is not good enough, why should we cover it?" You(the website) are a vital part of the scene, and if you fail to realize that, don't come whining about the foreign scene dying and never generating any intrest, beacuse ultimatly you are a one of many major factors and reasons to it.
And yes TSL is pretty much the exception that confirms the rule.
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On November 18 2008 18:14 rekluce wrote:'Iv been here since 2004 im old school iv seen it all ~_~" Talk to me when you have played this game for 11+ years.... On a side note, this "slow dieing" woulda been much worse a long time ago, then sc2 came out and bw got a much needed influx of life, however its just more noticable now cause alot of the ppl who came bacj because of sc2 realized that blizzard was probably butchering the came there so excited about all of a sudden and they slit there wrists =p the biggest problem in the bw community and when bw players suicide after losing 
I've played this game since I was 10 years old. I've been around the scene much longer than you I can guarantee.
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so sad but true.
so many clans are dying and many events doesn't feature sc anymore......
i guess we have to wait how sc2 develops...
btw good read
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On November 18 2008 18:14 rekluce wrote:On a side note, this "slow dieing" woulda been much worse a long time ago, then sc2 came out and bw got a much needed influx of life, however its just more noticable now cause alot of the ppl who came bacj because of sc2 realized that blizzard was probably butchering the came there so excited about all of a sudden and they slit there wrists =p the biggest problem in the bw community and when bw players suicide after losing
wtf is going on in this paragraph?
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Not sure if I agree, I personally know four individuals who started playing SC again this year so for me personally it's only livening up. *shrug*
+ Show Spoiler +also that vid reminds me of how big a douchebag Lars Ulrich is >_>
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Let the shit run it's course. In the end it's the people that play this game that'll have the deciding factor. If everyone still wants to play they'll play if they don't then they won't.
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On November 18 2008 18:16 SuperJongMan wrote:
I blame battle.net for sucking and for causing millions of people latency
Well too bad they can upgrde bnet from its like 1998 orign T_T
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Lol wth are you guys moaning about
You've been part of the game that gave birth to esports and pro gaming
You've been part of a game that is alive 10 years after its release
If anything you should thank blizzard and Korea
Btw after first pgl "foreign" scene was dead as fuck already.
You guys lag quite a bit.
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On November 18 2008 09:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:i think you're mostly right, although I think the "sc is dying" movement started in like, 2000-2001
Just like Blizzard. Always delaying.
By the time SC is dead, literally, I'll probably be dead too.
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On November 18 2008 21:20 keit wrote:
Every time I meet a swede in iccup it's amazing since there are so few actively playing. But I don't know if the swedish rts scene has ever been really big, the FPS scene has been the largest force here by my experiences.
coincidentally, Sweden is ranked 5th (omg 1 point under russia) on iccup in the
national 1v1 country rankings.
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On November 18 2008 09:42 Xeris wrote:
I guess I will first explain my qualifications for talking about the death of Starcraft before delving into it. Actually, even before that I will clarift what I mean by "Starcraft". I am talking about foreign competitive Starcraft - it has been a long drawn out process, but the end is finally approaching I believe. People have been claiming "Starcraft is dying" for almost five years now (the SC is dying movement really started in 2004), but I will argue that Starcraft has remained quite vital for the past few years, even through a majority of this year but the decline has been rapid over the past three months or so, and I project that the shelf life for this game, at least in the foreign scene, is essentially a few more months at best, and then only for major events such as WCG (if we even have it next year).
I have been heavily involved in the foreign scene since I started playing again in 2004 (took a few years break in 2001). I was never really that into the Korean scene, and when players such as Kingdom stopped making regular appearances in tournaments is essntially when I stopped following the pro scene altogether. I've been the leader of [LighT] for over three years now and have helped make it a pretty skilled foreign teams, and the best American team since 88 and rS in their hayday (I'm going to argue that Media wasn't vital long enough and didn't have enough team accomplishments to really put them up there). I consider myself to be one of the more immersed people when it comes to the foreign scene since I have been following it thoroughly and covering it by writing newses at GG.net and WGT.com for quite awhile.
Around 2004 when the "Starcraft is dying" talks really started, and in the years since then that those talks have been growing, I have almost always argued contrary to that fact - Starcraft is not dying, it is as strong as ever! Indeed, especially after the announcement of Starcraft 2, it seemed as if this game went through a mini-revival, that now has died out, and without the fervor of SC2-excitement, the death of this game is really becoming evident.
Starcraft isn't dying. You're just getting ready to move on. Most threads like this come from people who were really into Starcraft, but are finally seeing their tastes change. If you're not already stopping your 'heavy involvement,' I wager that you will within the year.
Don't worry, you won't be gone for long, they almost never are. But it'll be different. Instead of taking the game seriously, you'll appreciate that others take the game seriously so you don't have to. See you on my side in a bit, Xeris. Starcraft will be waiting just like it always has been.
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On November 18 2008 18:17 TreK wrote:ye what eri said, the "bw is dying" crying in sweden started very early, around 2001 in sweden when most of swedens top-layer stopped playing , swedens top site gamingeye started to lose alot of visitors etc ;p but it never really stopped dying imo until about a year ago, it really feels like there is very few swedes left im not exactly sure how the other communitys are going but norway never really had one and neither did denmark, most finnish ppl stopped playing when DKNY (?) closed for good.. i know spain also had some problems with their community when the top-layer stopped playing aswell at around 2004-2005 , it feels like germany is the one holding everything together and its basically mondi who is the only oldschool left from the time of bw is dying. i feel its the amount of active people in the community that makes a game active, not how many nabs are playing 3on3 fastest map ever $$$ by #¤)%#(%) guild. Sc2 will be great community wise, i hope it will be a nice game to observe aswell so we can get closer to CS in events etc :s
Ive been thinking about the same things and this leaves me wondering. During the Swedish peaks of Starcraft and Warcraft III we had gamingeye to gather around (plus to some extent the old swedish-only versions of gosugamers and warcraftsverige). Having a local community like that is really important when it comes to hosting events at internet cafés and lans. I started a thread about this back in the middle of 2007 on gamingeye.
http://www.starcrafting.se/forum/inlagg.eye?id=4&pid=107940&sid=0&lvl=0&o=3
To which within a day I recieved this answer from Moreaulf (The owner of gamingeye)
Jajamen!
För 10 år sedan startade jag Starcraft.se (som då låg på portalen passagen) och sedan dess har jag varit med, på ett eller annat sätt, och drivit 4 Starcraft-sidor. Den här på gamingeye är nu över 5 år gammal och... Det är dags för att göra om lite!
Så, det kommer en stor, stark svensk sida. Det blir den femte generationens Starcraft-sida och vi ska definitivt erbjuda ett bra community till alla Starcraft- OCH Starcraft 2-spelare såklart!!
To those of you who arn't Swedes and still care he just gives us reassurances that gamingeye would be the big site that the Swedish community could lean on. I'm not so sure if I can believe in that today. I just visited gamingeye and I could barely find the starcraft section. There seems to be no news section and the visitor count is lower than ever.
Just to rephrase what I asked back then in English:
Do we need a local community in Sweden to gather around for the creating of clans that can practice irl, for irl events such as at internet cafés and LANs? A site that can fill the role that gamingeye did for starcraft and warcraft 3? If so which site would that be and how would it be organized? I hope we can get answers to those questions ._.
(I'm a bit tired right now so this might not come out the way I intended it too ^^ I hope you get my point anyway)
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For a game to continue to flourish, it needs to be able to attract new players. A ten year old game isn't going to attract a lot of new blood. So it stays somewhat stagnant, all the while dying a slow and natural death. No surprise that we see the same names of the same inactive players competing in the same shit. Meh.
And then you have Skew getting his labia in a knot over his cuddle-buddies in Media. What a joke. If Media has the top players and those players don't have to play in order to continue being the best out there, it just proves Xeris' point. Even though most of us know that point was moot to begin with.
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EPT
