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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
On November 18 2008 09:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: i think you're mostly right, although I think the "sc is dying" movement started in like, 2000-2001  Savior needs to own again and we see a revival like 2006 big ass osl | ||
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ish0wstopper
Korea (South)342 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On November 18 2008 13:05 Skew wrote: Lastly, Media is the #1 US team hands down. We could have played D O fucking W for the past 3 years, never playing a game of SC, still come back and destroy any other US team without a mouse. Our team accomplishments are based on the people who make up the team, not some random league finish with no prize. Don't fucking disrespect a nation's leading players and team just to make yourself seem cool. You just lost a lot of credibility with a lot of top players. Hope it was worth it. On November 18 2008 13:19 MYM.Testie wrote: LOLCoincidentally, Media is the only US team. | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
I cant even keep up with proleague slightly. I check the rankings every once in a while and watch a game or two. And WCG has always been kinda weird. You overestimate how competitive those random ass countries were back in the early 2000s. It was always a mismatch vs the koreans and even the top international countries would own them. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
With real sports you have real sports (without bugs/flaws) which will always continue to be played. E-sports is just sad, but then again, we are barely out of the computer stone age, so the situation might improve massively in the future. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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littlechava
United States7221 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
While the foreign players are very good there is simply not a great incentive to watch them when one can watch players far beyond anyone like Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Best, Stork, Luxury and the other absolutely top koreans. This is even more true now that we have high quality english commentary being done on games with top koreans by people like Daniel Lee and Artosis. And I think if you look at those numbers youll find that interest in such vods has increased. Foriegn progaming is dying/dead or what have you (and honestly has been dead for most of the year for a long long time, IE: all the time not during wcg or TSL) because it is competing with a superior product in a vastly inferior market. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17735 Posts
On November 18 2008 14:36 red.venom wrote: The pro korean circuit has made all amateur/international efforts seem stupid. And the Korean arena itself is a little overcrowded with new players and new leagues. Too many games. It is watered down. I used to stay up until like 7am to watch a Starleague final live. Now I might watch it on jon727s youtube channel a week later if at all. I cant even keep up with proleague slightly. I check the rankings every once in a while and watch a game or two. And WCG has always been kinda weird. You overestimate how competitive those random ass countries were back in the early 2000s. It was always a mismatch vs the koreans and even the top international countries would own them. i would recognize every pro in 2005 but now i dont even know half the players and i only watch the games where people recommend. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On November 18 2008 15:10 littlechava wrote: I agree with the first half of Skew's post. Foreign bw has been pretty stagnant for the last... 8 years? I don't see much difference between when I started and now. I used to think that way until recently but if you actually look at the entire foreign competitive scene you can see it. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On November 18 2008 15:18 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Although I like your article and appreciate the effort, I have to disagree with your blame game. The real antagonist of the foreign progaming scene is the amazing level of talent, the huge amount of time invested by the korean pros, and the relatively huge amount of money invested by the korean companies. While the foreign players are very good there is simply not a great incentive to watch them when one can watch players far beyond anyone like Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Best, Stork, Luxury and the other absolutely top koreans. This is even more true now that we have high quality english commentary being done on games with top koreans by people like Daniel Lee and Artosis. And I think if you look at those numbers youll find that interest in such vods has increased. Foriegn progaming is dying/dead or what have you (and honestly has been dead for most of the year for a long long time, IE: all the time not during wcg or TSL) because it is competing with a superior product in a vastly inferior market. See I see this is as the foreign community not utilizing its strengths. For example, I'm a pretty newb player compared to the top foreigners, I guess compared with everyone (talking outside Korea here) I'm a bit above average skilled (C+ ICCUP, ya). There was a big LAN at my school last year, and I was playing it and people were crowding around watching me play. My roommates friend came to our house and cooked us dinner specifically because he wanted to watch me play BW (he was some nerdy Korean kid). All these guys know and have watched progamers play, but were immensely interested and excited to watch me (who is a newbie) play BW. My point is that, it's not that since progaming is so vastly superior to the foreign scene there's no incentive to pay attention to the foreign scene, it's just that the foreign scene was not given enough attention nor was it marketed correctly to build the level of interest to make it sustainable. If random koreans at my school (who follow progaming) find watching ME play entertaining, there's no reason why any casual fan would love to watch top foreign players duking it out. This aspect of our community pretty much was NEVER taken advantage of until TSL, but I believe that it came too late in the history of BW. I believe that continued TSL's can revitalize the community, but I am slightly skeptical of TL's ability to consistently run TSL's enough to create a sustainable foreign scene. I hope I'm wrong and that more TSL's can increase attention give to the foreign scene, and more tournaments, events can be put in place to have similar stature as TSL, but again, I have strong doubts. | ||
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littlechava
United States7221 Posts
On November 18 2008 15:20 Xeris wrote: I used to think that way until recently but if you actually look at the entire foreign competitive scene you can see it. I don't see any evidence for your claims besides wgtcl and bwcl being riddled with W.Os. But there's still quite a few big foreign tournaments going on (WCG, ESL, PGL, TSL, etc.) and a combination of SC2 hype and english broadcasting in Korea has actually been a breath of fresh air for the community. I feel like I see new players starting all the time now. Maybe there's more evidence for the death of foreign competitive BW in your post and I just missed it - admittedly I skimmed through it. If there is, mind explaining it again? | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10880 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On November 18 2008 16:58 littlechava wrote: + Show Spoiler + I don't see any evidence for your claims besides wgtcl and bwcl being riddled with W.Os. But there's still quite a few big foreign tournaments going on (WCG, ESL, PGL, TSL, etc.) and a combination of SC2 hype and english broadcasting in Korea has actually been a breath of fresh air for the community. I feel like I see new players starting all the time now. Maybe there's more evidence for the death of foreign competitive BW in your post and I just missed it - admittedly I skimmed through it. If there is, mind explaining it again? 1) GSL (big german tournament, recently) - finished, and honestly I don't think that this got the attention it really deserved and I don't think was handled as well as it could have been, the beginning was well-broadcasted, but towards the end seems like about half the players dropped out, fanfare dinished up until the finals and it came back into the news coverage. 2) ESL - Nice tournament with a good qualification, but again I really wonder if they will host more of these. 3) Hauppage Cups (or however you spell it) - these were great for awhile, and had lots of players, but again the coverage on news sites and stuff wasn't that great, and I believe they stated that there would be no more of these because of a lack of interest by sponsors to continue it? 4) PGL - the Chinese tournaments are obviously really great, and I think their decision to open it up to public qualification is a really good thing, although I don't think it has been answered how the winners of this will get to China, do they pay their own way, or is it an expenses-paid trip? Depending on the answer to that question, this could be very great for the foreign scene, or almost a moot point unless MYM players win it. 5) TSL - as I said before, I think that this is essentially the "only hope" of the foreign community. If TSL can run regularly (I.E once per quarter) that would be great, if it is inconsistent, sporadic, or doesn't happen again, obviously this is a bad thing. Because if it is not run regularly, then you'll have players who pretty much ONLY play for TSL (if it's not consistent then, it is a bad thing), because when TSL is running, people will play, then disappear into obscurity. Having TSL run regularly would help create a stable foreign community. 6) WCG - Even though WCG is held annually, a lot of players at this point ONLY play for WCG, this really isn't great for the foreign community. Especially because most national organizations and even the world finals organization completely blows ass, and they lose sponsorship every year, sending less and less players, the future of WCG Starcraft doesn't seem bright. So ultimately we have a foreign scene that looks like this: 1) Vastly fewer amounts of teams, most of the players in top teams are really inactive at this stage and just rely on the fact that there isn't a big pool of up-coming players to take their spot, so they can win CW's and tournaments while being inactive, and they have few incentives to try really hard because there are no tournaments coming up (except PGL), and not much prize-incentive for clan leagues. a) Top teams are roughly in the same boat they've been in for awhile, MYM, ToT, MgZ, LRM, RoX are the dominant teams, and will likely be dominant for the remainder of the game. b) Lower level teams have taken the biggest hit, because there aren't enough people really to fill up rosters. This can be seen in the vastly smaller lower divisions of just about every clan league. The fact that there is a smaller pool of players out there means there are fewer players who will be around to become the "new gosus" 2) Overall it seems like a lot of people lack the drive and motivation to continue playing the game competitively and seriously. Obviously bad for the future of the scene because there are not likely to be many people who will become really top level foreign players, and the skill of the top foreigners will slowly decline as they stop practicing and switch over to poker, DoTA, or real life. 3) I actually think losing two of the best foreign players to Korea (Idra and Nony) is a bad thing for the foreign competitive scene, depending on how much they will be allowed to be involved in foreign tournaments (if there are even more worthy of them playing in). For example, if they aren't allowed to play in foreign events, then we've pretty much just lost two great players (except for their brief returns for WCG or TSL or whatever, but for I guess 3/4 of the year, they'll be MIA in the foreign scene). Obviously, this is good as a sort of integration of the two communities, and to get foreigners even more into/involved in Korea, but it's not good for the foreign community. Again I'm just saying in the next year I predict there will be less interest, fewer teams, fewer players, and lazy/inactive existing players. The player base is smaller, less new "top players" in the next generation, feeding an eventual decline to what will be the death of the foreign scene. Agree or disagree, its my thought. | ||
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ForVengeance
United States111 Posts
But on a side note, who really cares about foreign players? I mean, id like to see them do well, and its VERY interesting when they play against Koreans, but really who cares. The foreign players just seem like minor leaguers. When they get a chance to go up against Koreans its straight up rape most of the time. And i dont want to sit and watch rape. As a spectator all i want to see are players at the top of their game. And if foreign players can get to that level then great but they dont. So to be honest it doesnt matter to me if there are foreign tournaments or not. I dont watch them, i dont keep up to date on them, and i just dont care. Im not trying to be harsh or rude, but this is how i feel. Its been like 11 years, if white people cant play with the pros by now then jesus christ whats it gonna take another 10 years? To me SC is always going to be two kooky looking asian dudes in racing jackets with little sponsor patches all over them training 14 hours a day and having 4 year careers. THATS exciting. Seriously who cares about foreigners? They cant play the game. Either win, or quit. No more excuses about "mechanics" vs "mind" and all that garbage. Win or quit. | ||
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littlechava
United States7221 Posts
On November 18 2008 17:16 Xeris wrote: I agree with your 1st argument to a point, looking at wgtcl it does seem as if there's a decline in low level teams competing in clan wars and such. but there's still hundreds if not thousands of lower level foreign players still playing iccup.1) GSL (big german tournament, recently) - finished, and honestly I don't think that this got the attention it really deserved and I don't think was handled as well as it could have been, the beginning was well-broadcasted, but towards the end seems like about half the players dropped out, fanfare dinished up until the finals and it came back into the news coverage. 2) ESL - Nice tournament with a good qualification, but again I really wonder if they will host more of these. 3) Hauppage Cups (or however you spell it) - these were great for awhile, and had lots of players, but again the coverage on news sites and stuff wasn't that great, and I believe they stated that there would be no more of these because of a lack of interest by sponsors to continue it? 4) PGL - the Chinese tournaments are obviously really great, and I think their decision to open it up to public qualification is a really good thing, although I don't think it has been answered how the winners of this will get to China, do they pay their own way, or is it an expenses-paid trip? Depending on the answer to that question, this could be very great for the foreign scene, or almost a moot point unless MYM players win it. 5) TSL - as I said before, I think that this is essentially the "only hope" of the foreign community. If TSL can run regularly (I.E once per quarter) that would be great, if it is inconsistent, sporadic, or doesn't happen again, obviously this is a bad thing. Because if it is not run regularly, then you'll have players who pretty much ONLY play for TSL (if it's not consistent then, it is a bad thing), because when TSL is running, people will play, then disappear into obscurity. Having TSL run regularly would help create a stable foreign community. 6) WCG - Even though WCG is held annually, a lot of players at this point ONLY play for WCG, this really isn't great for the foreign community. Especially because most national organizations and even the world finals organization completely blows ass, and they lose sponsorship every year, sending less and less players, the future of WCG Starcraft doesn't seem bright. So ultimately we have a foreign scene that looks like this: 1) Vastly fewer amounts of teams, most of the players in top teams are really inactive at this stage and just rely on the fact that there isn't a big pool of up-coming players to take their spot, so they can win CW's and tournaments while being inactive, and they have few incentives to try really hard because there are no tournaments coming up (except PGL), and not much prize-incentive for clan leagues. a) Top teams are roughly in the same boat they've been in for awhile, MYM, ToT, MgZ, LRM, RoX are the dominant teams, and will likely be dominant for the remainder of the game. b) Lower level teams have taken the biggest hit, because there aren't enough people really to fill up rosters. This can be seen in the vastly smaller lower divisions of just about every clan league. The fact that there is a smaller pool of players out there means there are fewer players who will be around to become the "new gosus" 2) Overall it seems like a lot of people lack the drive and motivation to continue playing the game competitively and seriously. Obviously bad for the future of the scene because there are not likely to be many people who will become really top level foreign players, and the skill of the top foreigners will slowly decline as they stop practicing and switch over to poker, DoTA, or real life. 3) I actually think losing two of the best foreign players to Korea (Idra and Nony) is a bad thing for the foreign competitive scene, depending on how much they will be allowed to be involved in foreign tournaments (if there are even more worthy of them playing in). For example, if they aren't allowed to play in foreign events, then we've pretty much just lost two great players (except for their brief returns for WCG or TSL or whatever, but for I guess 3/4 of the year, they'll be MIA in the foreign scene). Obviously, this is good as a sort of integration of the two communities, and to get foreigners even more into/involved in Korea, but it's not good for the foreign community. Again I'm just saying in the next year I predict there will be less interest, fewer teams, fewer players, and lazy/inactive existing players. The player base is smaller, less new "top players" in the next generation, feeding an eventual decline to what will be the death of the foreign scene. Agree or disagree, its my thought. I agree with your 2nd point, but this makes it sound like the competitive foreign scene has been dead since the original non Korean pros got outclassed by Koreans. It's been like this for years, when someone had put enough time and energy into the game to play at the top foreign level they realize there is nowhere else for them to go, and either quit or play during the WCG (or big tournament a la TSL) season only. As for the 3rd, I may be wrong but Idra and Nony didn't seem to play as actively as the top Europeans in most foreign tournaments. I don't think them being in Korea will hurt the scene. I would hope it would draw it together in support and interest, but that's never happened before so I think it'll just stay as is. You may be right, I'm just saying that my paranoid side has been thinking the same thing ever since I got into the foreign scene after starting BW. The foreign BW scene has been limping on and on for years and I don't think it's going to stop until SC2 renders it obsolete. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
then it will be unstoppable nearly forever, and it will be a great hit for blizzard see how their next gen games could never realy surpass brood war e-sport potential and that is something i believe will happen. | ||
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
But it is definitely waning. I can see it on every site. And I don't think there is much we can do about it. A 10 year old game can hardly attract new players. And the old ones are getting jobs, going to school and stuff. Judging by me I play a miserable 10 games per week when only a year ago I used to play 10 per day. At least. And it's not desire I am lacking. I just ain't got the time to spare... | ||
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rekluce
United States51 Posts
Talk to me when you have played this game for 11+ years.... On a side note, this "slow dieing" woulda been much worse a long time ago, then sc2 came out and bw got a much needed influx of life, however its just more noticable now cause alot of the ppl who came bacj because of sc2 realized that blizzard was probably butchering the came there so excited about all of a sudden and they slit there wrists =p the biggest problem in the bw community and when bw players suicide after losing | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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