On July 13 2026 23:30 TMNT wrote: That said, the lack of self awareness from JD and SK in the video is quite staggering. So last season we have ZvP win rates on those maps as follows :
Attitude 62.5% Polestar 54.1% Octagon 49.6% Neo Sylphid 50.6% Knockout 48.7% Match Point: 38.6% Jane Doe: 44.6%
On paper pretty balanced for me, although with a caveat that the win rate on Jane Doe doesn't reflect the true balance of the map: Zerg's cheese does a lot of the heavy lifting rise the win rate for Zerg to a respectable 44%. They can't contest Protoss head-on in a standard macro game on this map.
The staggering thing here is that, ok so let's say this map pool as a whole is 60/40 in favor of P in PvZ, so what? As soon as Protoss have some nice things, excessive whining has already started from Zerg.
JD says something about drawing a line when the map advantage is too much and bringing back old maps that favor Protoss. Well, didn't see you complain when they brought Monty Hall back (22% win rate for P btw). Death Valley anyone? Roaring Currents which is effectively the opposite of Jane Doe. Soulkey and Soma won their ASLs destroying Protoss on those maps. Not to mention the standard maps generally favor Zerg. How many season have Polestar (54.1%), Metropolis (54.7%), Dominator (55.8%) stayed in the pool?
Lastly there's a clear difference between "Protoss favored" and "Protoss favored in PvZ". So last season they had a slight advantage in PvZ but was immediately countered by Shitagon and Shititude (Shuttle makes this point quite clear) - which are here to stay for another season as the "standard maps" - so let's not act like the map pool was designed to help Protoss like 910 tried to tell you. Dude gave a clear buff to Terran and tried to gaslight it as he was helping Protoss.
910 already said that the protoss lineup has been complete dogshit. That these dogshit players are able to go 50:50 is the grievance here. Have you even seen the video? If anything, SK and Soma should have won even harder given the massive skill discrepancy between them and anyone else.
It does matter if you score 90/100 in a final by actually studying hard, but the dude next to you does the same but puts in 0 effort, get 30 minutes more and only scores 90/100 because they got massive help from the professor while being on drugs.
Both score 90/100, but its not balanced at all.
The fact that fucking shuttle gets selected into daily proleague regularly only confirms this. This is the real grievance here.
What a dogshit take. Devoid of logic.
You start by considering that "Protoss players are dogshit" is true by default, and use that to work back to your argument that Soulkey and Soma should win even harder.
How about this argument: "the ZvP matchup favors Zerg by default", that's why they've been able to get the upper hand vs Protoss for 25 years regardless of era.
Shuttle does not "get selected" into proleague. In fact he hasn't been a regular in major proleague for a few years. He was either the one who started the proleague himself, or got invited in, because of the money he brought in. Nothing to do with skilss here.
If anything, you'd think that the race that is able to put in 0 effort, get 90/100 and go 50:50 with the best of the other race should have an amazing lineup and an abundance of players at the top level lol. That is how logic works bro.
Funny how you accuse me of strawmanning, then strawman yourself.
I never said 25 years. Actually 910 said it minute 3:
"In case of last season honestly we gave some power to protoss because as JD mentioned earlier right now, protoss lineup is fairly weak, with tulbo and all... we cannot just not consider protoss
... if we dont protoss may just disappear"
Yeah sounds like a fucking weak protoss lineup to me
If anything, you'd think that the race that is able to put in 0 effort, get 90/100 and go 50:50 with the best of the other race should have an amazing lineup and an abundance of players at the top level lol. That is how logic works bro.
what? let's just assume away that they only got their because of maps, basically the WHOLE DEBATE OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD? Yeah no way this made sense in your own head if you leave out the only variable we are talking about making the entire difference.
Let's just leave out the most important thing we are talking about for 2 pages. Amazing thinking skills
Neither of us was using a strawman argument. I just said your argument is shit, and I explained why,
First, whatever 910 said may or may not be true.
Second, he said "Protoss lineup is fairly weak" (translation from KR btw). You said "the protoss lineup has been complete dogshit. That these dogshit players are able to go 50:50..." Now don't backtrack on this, as I see you already did. I'm pretty sure "fairly weak" and "complete dogshit players" are very different things. Just admit that you completely hyperboled 910's statement.
Third, "these dogshit players are able to go 50:50..." I assume with Soulkey and Soma? Well last I checked, Shuttle and Tulbo didn't go toe to toe with any of the top 6 Zergs, let alone Soulkey and Soma. Hell, even Snow and Bisu couldn't go 50:50 with them. So again, your argument is based on a completely made up pretense.
Protoss lineup being weak mostly refers to the lack of top players beyond their top 4/5 guys. Without map help, these 4/5 guys still get in ASL anyway. The changes are intended to increase that number to 8/9. That's where 910's argument falls apart: - giving Protoss the likes of Jane Doe and Match Point doesn't change anything to their lineup, because those maps are neither used in qualifiers nor earlier rounds. - assuming these maps do give Protoss the upper hand from Ro8, that doesn't help the Protoss lineup either. That may increase the chance of Snow winning ASL, but he'd win it even if he's the only Protoss in ASL. So it gives advantage to Snow, not the whole Protoss lineup.
Finally I dont understand what you mean in your last paragraph. Genuinely don't understand your point. As I understand, you gave an extreme example, implying that Zergs get 90/100 because they practice hard while Protosses also get 90/100 with 0 effort and help from maps. My argument is that if that was the case, we'd see so many more top Protoss players. What is wrong with my argument?
On July 14 2026 11:36 TMNT wrote: - giving Protoss the likes of Jane Doe and Match Point doesn't change anything to their lineup, because those maps are neither used in qualifiers nor earlier rounds.
It was strange because last season, people complained about the Terran maps and getting too many Terran when the qualifier maps were KnockOut, Sylphid, and Pole Star. Pole Star is a Terran map, but KnockOut and Sylphid are more in line.
But agree, Jane Doe and Match Point don't have impacts on the qualifying statistics at least because they aren't used in the qualifiers.
On July 13 2026 05:32 doktordingerdonger wrote: Only goes to show how zergs who are able to compete are just Gigachads that are built differently. The only zergs that are able to compete the past years were SK and then Soma.
75% terrans last ASL, and the best terran was a guy with a fucked up wrist who 4-0 Light. They have zero gigachads. Even Flash resorted to macro cheese while still benefitting from mapsagi and tesagi. Typical virgin terran behavior.
Tulbo and Snow made it farther than any other protoss. Of course they did not have any gigachad since Reach retired.
Jane Doe and Match Point were basically free win for protoss/terran, and yet they did not win.
At some point you should not balance according to the eventual winner or the ASL final, who are the biggest outliers in skill, but the average high skill. Those who win will be huge outliers anyway to everyone, and they will win no matter what the map pool will be. The current balance philosophy of trying to balance the race of the eventual winner will only mess up balance at the lower levels of the skill distribution.
LOL you really take this seriously don't you?
Snow confirmed that Soma and SK are just gigachads that are built differently.
Yer, I know they're awesome. I just think you need to calm down a bit.
EPT
