EPTPros Debate: Zerg Unfairly Nerfed? (ASL S22 map)
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jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
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doktordingerdonger
125 Posts
75% terrans last ASL, and the best terran was a guy with a fucked up wrist who 4-0 Light. They have zero gigachads. Even Flash resorted to macro cheese while still benefitting from mapsagi and tesagi. Typical virgin terran behavior. Tulbo and Snow made it farther than any other protoss. Of course they did not have any gigachad since Reach retired. Jane Doe and Match Point were basically free win for protoss/terran, and yet they did not win. At some point you should not balance according to the eventual winner or the ASL final, who are the biggest outliers in skill, but the average high skill. Those who win will be huge outliers anyway to everyone, and they will win no matter what the map pool will be. The current balance philosophy of trying to balance the race of the eventual winner will only mess up balance at the lower levels of the skill distribution. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3505 Posts
Interesting perspective, thanks for posting! | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7005 Posts
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hda
39 Posts
I recall these streams trending at FMKorea last week. Takeaway from Soulkey was that the champions (e.g. he and Soma) worked hardest in preparation, and were rewarded, in spite of any inequities Funny how Jaedong and Rush just wanted the organizers/map makers to admit the Protoss-favoritism, that they wanted to hear the intended bias spoken out loud :D | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1552 Posts
On July 13 2026 08:50 hda wrote: Thanks, Jinjin I recall these streams trending at FMKorea last week. Takeaway from Soulkey was that the champions (e.g. he and Soma) worked hardest in preparation, and were rewarded, in spite of any inequities Funny how Jaedong and Rush just wanted the organizers/map makers to admit the Protoss-favoritism, that they wanted to hear the intended bias spoken out loud :D Rush has been getting massively shat on because it's turning out odyssey is looking pretty decent for Terran. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines739 Posts
On July 13 2026 05:32 doktordingerdonger wrote: Only goes to show how zergs who are able to compete are just Gigachads that are built differently. The only zergs that are able to compete the past years were SK and then Soma. 75% terrans last ASL, and the best terran was a guy with a fucked up wrist who 4-0 Light. They have zero gigachads. Even Flash resorted to macro cheese while still benefitting from mapsagi and tesagi. Typical virgin terran behavior. Tulbo and Snow made it farther than any other protoss. Of course they did not have any gigachad since Reach retired. Jane Doe and Match Point were basically free win for protoss/terran, and yet they did not win. At some point you should not balance according to the eventual winner or the ASL final, who are the biggest outliers in skill, but the average high skill. Those who win will be huge outliers anyway to everyone, and they will win no matter what the map pool will be. The current balance philosophy of trying to balance the race of the eventual winner will only mess up balance at the lower levels of the skill distribution. LMAO | ||
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winson
China139 Posts
On July 13 2026 05:32 doktordingerdonger wrote: Only goes to show how zergs who are able to compete are just Gigachads that are built differently. The only zergs that are able to compete the past years were SK and then Soma. 75% terrans last ASL, and the best terran was a guy with a fucked up wrist who 4-0 Light. They have zero gigachads. Even Flash resorted to macro cheese while still benefitting from mapsagi and tesagi. Typical virgin terran behavior. Tulbo and Snow made it farther than any other protoss. Of course they did not have any gigachad since Reach retired. Jane Doe and Match Point were basically free win for protoss/terran, and yet they did not win. At some point you should not balance according to the eventual winner or the ASL final, who are the biggest outliers in skill, but the average high skill. Those who win will be huge outliers anyway to everyone, and they will win no matter what the map pool will be. The current balance philosophy of trying to balance the race of the eventual winner will only mess up balance at the lower levels of the skill distribution. No map is a free win for PVZ. Zergs can win by marco if the map is good for them or they can win by cheese if map is "bad" for them (see bisu and best both lost on Jane done by cheese) And Roaring Currents which claims to be "good" for PVZ. But Protoss has 0% win rate in ASL, Zerg vs Protoss is so flexible, Zergs has so many paths to victory, while Protoss almost can only go with Cosair opener. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey797 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2600 Posts
I took a look at liquipedia, 2242 matches: ZvP 47.7%. PvT 52.3%, ZvT 54.0%. Isn't it pretty close to 50%. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland610 Posts
On July 13 2026 13:49 chongu wrote: My biggest surprise other than JD complaining about maps, is that Matchpoint is anti-zerg. I tot it was one of the most balanced maps. I took a look at liquipedia, 2242 matches: ZvP 47.7%. PvT 52.3%, ZvT 54.0%. Isn't it pretty close to 50%. In StarCraft community, when a map has 50% win rate for Protoss, it is already considered imbalanced. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland610 Posts
 Mining )Then there is a matter that u don't need (during early game) more than 8 workers mining minerals, so another advantage goes out of the window - protoss can build multiple buildings using just 1 worker. For terrans, again, that works very good. Of course the meta game changes a lot, because games get more about mineral usage rather than gas/tech usage, but I lack the knowledge to speak out on this matter yet without any games played by me on this map. Not sure about other match ups. And oh, it hurts to see Rush laugh so much at Shuttle when he clearly wanted to speak seriously. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3150 Posts
On July 13 2026 05:32 doktordingerdonger wrote: Only goes to show how zergs who are able to compete are just Gigachads that are built differently. The only zergs that are able to compete the past years were SK and then Soma. 75% terrans last ASL, and the best terran was a guy with a fucked up wrist who 4-0 Light. They have zero gigachads. Even Flash resorted to macro cheese while still benefitting from mapsagi and tesagi. Typical virgin terran behavior. Tulbo and Snow made it farther than any other protoss. Of course they did not have any gigachad since Reach retired. Jane Doe and Match Point were basically free win for protoss/terran, and yet they did not win. At some point you should not balance according to the eventual winner or the ASL final, who are the biggest outliers in skill, but the average high skill. Those who win will be huge outliers anyway to everyone, and they will win no matter what the map pool will be. The current balance philosophy of trying to balance the race of the eventual winner will only mess up balance at the lower levels of the skill distribution. LOL you really take this seriously don't you? | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia482 Posts
On July 13 2026 13:49 chongu wrote: My biggest surprise other than JD complaining about maps, is that Matchpoint is anti-zerg. I tot it was one of the most balanced maps. I took a look at liquipedia, 2242 matches: ZvP 47.7%. PvT 52.3%, ZvT 54.0%. Isn't it pretty close to 50%. 910 should have quoted this. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3150 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia978 Posts
I guess having to make a pylon to build anything is a weakness in that scenario since you end up with a ton of unnecessary supply when both finish, there isn't really an option to skip it. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10787 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13430 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia482 Posts
On July 13 2026 16:50 TelecoM wrote: I dunno I always felt like match point was pretty difficult in PvZ until you get to the late game, I didn't know it was considered harder for Zerg in ZvP, interesting, thanks for sharing. As already written for match point, ZvP 47.7%. Hell, that looks absolutely unplayable! Zerg revolt now! | ||
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hda
39 Posts
On July 13 2026 16:50 TelecoM wrote: I dunno I always felt like match point was pretty difficult in PvZ until you get to the late game, I didn't know it was considered harder for Zerg in ZvP, interesting, thanks for sharing. I didn't realize this either, but I saw a few FMKorea posts where folks tallied up all the Eloboard PvZ results involving only the top players -- i.e. Bisu, Mini, Snow, Best versus Soma, Hero, Jaedong, Soulkey, Zero, and maybe another Zerg, ever since Match Point was re-inserted into the map pool for ASL 21. The PvZ winrate has been ~70%. So it lines up with what the players have been saying... | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5672 Posts
And of course it's in ASL's interest to at least make the gimmick map work out in favor of the race/player they would like to win. It's never good if the same race wins multiple times in a row. That said it's hard to rely on Snow Mini Best reaching, and winning the finals. The amount of times those 3 have crushed my hopes to finally have a proper Protoss champ... | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11295 Posts
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doktordingerdonger
125 Posts
On July 13 2026 15:14 NoS-Craig wrote: LOL you really take this seriously don't you? Snow confirmed that Soma and SK are just gigachads that are built differently. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11295 Posts
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doktordingerdonger
125 Posts
I dunno if you guys are doing it on purpose, but these stats are match point since 2009. We are talking about current balance with new builds etc. From recent eloboard.com data Z: 261 wins 298 losses (46.7%) P: 242 wins 167 losses (59.2%) T: 216 wins 254 losses (46.0%) ZT: 165 wins 145 losses (53.2%) TZ: 145 wins 165 losses (46.8%) ZP: 96 wins 153 losses (38.6%) PZ: 153 wins 96 losses (61.4%) PT: 89 wins 71 losses (55.6%) TP: 71 wins 89 losses (44.4%) This map makes shuttle look like prime Bisu. | ||
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