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On July 31 2025 23:47 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2025 23:00 A.Alm wrote:On July 31 2025 22:05 TMNT wrote:
What he said in those screenshots, assuming they are all true (given screenshot 1 and 3 are not even consistent between themselves), are not even contradictory to what he said previously or what he said in the other part of this video or what I said.
These guys don't have an argument. They are just nitpicking on minor, irrelevant details or making strawman arguments. Sigh.
This is just like the time we argued about the Shuttle vs Queen game, and then jinjin released a video with all the pros confirming my side of the argument, but Eon still had his head buried deep in the sand and kept doubling down on his.
Anyway, with this video this case is settled now. Nothing needs to be said anymore. yeah and you said the asl 20 maps werent "anti-soulkey", yet soulkey himself says the maps are shit for zerg. Anyways, i think Flash is starting to regret not entering ASL 20 as he's absolutely smashing everyone in the daily proleagues. "Anti-Soulkey" and "Anti-Zerg" are completely different things. ZvZ is arguably his worst matchup, so maps that are favorable for TvZ and PvZ are perhaps helpful for Soulkey because it knocks out other Zerg players that he'd have more difficulty with. Meanwhile his skill vT and vP is so high that a moderate map imbalance doesn't slow him down.
Ironically, if Soulkey's weakness was ZvZ, the solution would be to make maps even more zerg favoured to let more zerg players progress in the brackets.
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On August 01 2025 00:21 A.Alm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2025 23:34 WombaT wrote:On July 31 2025 23:00 A.Alm wrote:On July 31 2025 22:05 TMNT wrote:
What he said in those screenshots, assuming they are all true (given screenshot 1 and 3 are not even consistent between themselves), are not even contradictory to what he said previously or what he said in the other part of this video or what I said.
These guys don't have an argument. They are just nitpicking on minor, irrelevant details or making strawman arguments. Sigh.
This is just like the time we argued about the Shuttle vs Queen game, and then jinjin released a video with all the pros confirming my side of the argument, but Eon still had his head buried deep in the sand and kept doubling down on his.
Anyway, with this video this case is settled now. Nothing needs to be said anymore. yeah and you said the asl 20 maps werent "anti-soulkey", yet soulkey himself says the maps are shit for zerg. Anyways, i think Flash is starting to regret not entering ASL 20 as he's absolutely smashing everyone in the daily proleagues. Not a conversation I was privy to, but TMNT can be wrong there and 100% right here. Their argument (and mine incidental) is that Flash’s injury can still be debilitating, but he could play ASL based on his level of activity and his actual level, he’s just not doing so because he wants to feel 100% or as close as he can get, and if he doesn’t feel he can actually win, he doesn’t want to enter. Which, incidentally I don’t have any problem with, especially as ASL is more for prestige than money versus what Flash could lose out on from streaming. Which Flash literally says in this video is a factor. If TMNT was saying Flash is a pussy and isn’t really as injured as he says, which is the strawman of his actual posts, then yeah I’d think it fair to call him out i was just showing the irony of his pride to agree on some stupid thing with progamers, i dont care about ur arguments about this other stupid jinjin drama thing.
There’s no irony because there's no analogy.
The anti Soulkey narrative implies that map makers and organisers go out of their way to stop Soulkey. I oppose that idea, because if it's the case, then they aren't doing enough (only 3 new maps this season), and should have done that 1-2 seasons ago, i.e. maps should have been progressively harder for Z since ASL18.
On the other hand, maps could be harder for Zerg just by chances, or natural rotation, or because they want to help Protoss since they have won jack shit in a while (slightly different to just being anti Soulkey). Plus, 90% of modern maps are bad for Zerg against Terran. This has always been the case.
So from that point of view you can say maps are always shit for Zerg, but it also means maps are either always anti Soulkey, or not anti Soulkey. There's no in between.
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I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation.
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LOOOL, even the terran crybaby Artosis acknowledges Shuttle's PvZ prowess in ASL Day 2 qualifiers. You guys are just plain wrong. Shuttle is the new PvZ God.
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Northern Ireland26953 Posts
On August 19 2025 06:00 mtcn77 wrote:
LOOOL, even the terran crybaby Artosis acknowledges Shuttle's PvZ prowess in ASL Day 2 qualifiers. You guys are just plain wrong. Shuttle is the new PvZ God.
Hm? :S
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Flash has gone soft. Never thought I’d see the day.
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Northern Ireland26953 Posts
On August 19 2025 08:41 RowdierBob wrote:
Flash has gone soft. Never thought I’d see the day.
Must have clapped eyes on my ma then.
I can only apologise
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On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz.
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Northern Ireland26953 Posts
On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz.
Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now
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On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now
Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles.
Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task.
I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching.
PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are.
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On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are.
Dont overpool build break most of the 1 base rushes against zerg iirc ? It seems fairly common build nowadays for zerg
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On August 20 2025 14:56 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. Dont overpool build break most of the 1 base rushes against zerg iirc ? It seems fairly common build nowadays for zerg
Might. All I'm saying is there is a high correlation with what I saw and what Artosis says about the better player demonstrating aggression towards the lesser player even today. All things said and done, I NEVER saw protoss lose on the defensive, that is because they never respected zerg in the past. That is, they were always on the offensive. Maybe we might be looking through retrospective determinism seeing it wasn't so one sided looking at the results, but results are one thing, the gameplay was another. It didn't look that way in the past, protoss always went head first and zerg only survived by the slimmest of chances. Even then, it wasn't by strategy that got zerg pull through into late game. Zerg just limped.
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On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are.
The reason why players aren't as good as the pros is because they don't copy the pros. More forge/gate FE rather than one base is the answer to winning more games in PvZ. There is no "but only the pros can do it". No, wrong. The pros do it because it wins, not because they're the only ones who can do it.
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On August 20 2025 15:10 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 14:56 goody153 wrote:On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. Dont overpool build break most of the 1 base rushes against zerg iirc ? It seems fairly common build nowadays for zerg Might. All I'm saying is there is a high correlation with what I saw and what Artosis says about the better player demonstrating aggression towards the lesser player even today. All things said and done, I NEVER saw protoss lose on the defensive, that is because they never respected zerg in the past. That is, they were always on the offensive. Maybe we might be looking through retrospective determinism seeing it wasn't so one sided looking at the results, but results are one thing, the gameplay was another. It didn't look that way in the past, protoss always went head first and zerg only survived by the slimmest of chances. Even then, it wasn't by strategy that got zerg pull through into late game. Zerg just limped.
Idk man.
Protoss players can lose on the aggressive (assuming you meant that "i never saw protoss lose on the defense" cause it made no sense in the paragraph). You know the gateway expand where you start churning zealots as early as possible sending them towards the zerg base
Even Mini who is basically the masterclass at doing that opening sometimes still losses to zerg when he makes a missstep and the zealots dies to the zerglings too early and they just straightup lose the game. That's the most aggressive high result opening a pvz can do nowadays and they can still be punished if the protoss missteps
Even if you meant the opposite protoss being defensive never losses instead can still lose easily to earlier zergling timing builds on closer spawn maps. Even on big 4 player maps cause it is harder to scout especially if they go greedy earlier nexus builds
The thing about 1 base vs 2 base is that you can still open at 2 base style while being aggressive and from time to time it just leads to wins and even victories from the opening alone to weaker players (just from better zealot-probe micro plus just skills or skill issue on the other side) and if it doesnt pay off you can just transition to a macro game which is waaaaaaaaay less risk than just opening with 1 base rushes and you cant get back from there just cause the zerg scouted it with a drone
Every just scouting kinda counters alot of the early 1 base pushes nowadays too which is a norm on every race to send a worker scout everytime. While stuff like midmap 1 base 2 rax still works but it's pretty rare imo like people just learned to defend it well like zergs arent even bothered when terrans builds a bunker on their natural. Pretty much even for zerg why 7 pool or the more riskier 4 pool you rarely see them anymore people got better at defending them with workers
Like seriously people just pull workers nowadays against 1 bases and if they defend it they are pretty much ahead with the extra natural CC/Hatchery/Nexus
Like honestly if you are a better player and you could macro against them there is not alot of incentive to do 1 base pushes when that kinda equalizes the chance of the other player instead
But that's imo that's pretty much just my limited understanding what they do as well since i'm not a pro either (nor even a protoss player)
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Northern Ireland26953 Posts
For those not aware, you’re not arguing with someone who advocates for mixing in one base builds as part of your suite, but someone who actively thinks fast expanding PvZ is just outright bad
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On August 21 2025 00:23 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 15:10 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 14:56 goody153 wrote:On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. Dont overpool build break most of the 1 base rushes against zerg iirc ? It seems fairly common build nowadays for zerg Might. All I'm saying is there is a high correlation with what I saw and what Artosis says about the better player demonstrating aggression towards the lesser player even today. All things said and done, I NEVER saw protoss lose on the defensive, that is because they never respected zerg in the past. That is, they were always on the offensive. Maybe we might be looking through retrospective determinism seeing it wasn't so one sided looking at the results, but results are one thing, the gameplay was another. It didn't look that way in the past, protoss always went head first and zerg only survived by the slimmest of chances. Even then, it wasn't by strategy that got zerg pull through into late game. Zerg just limped. Idk man. Protoss players can lose on the aggressive (assuming you meant that "i never saw protoss lose on the defense" cause it made no sense in the paragraph). You know the gateway expand where you start churning zealots as early as possible sending them towards the zerg base Even Mini who is basically the masterclass at doing that opening sometimes still losses to zerg when he makes a missstep and the zealots dies to the zerglings too early and they just straightup lose the game. That's the most aggressive high result opening a pvz can do nowadays and they can still be punished if the protoss missteps Even if you meant the opposite protoss being defensive never losses instead can still lose easily to earlier zergling timing builds on closer spawn maps. Even on big 4 player maps cause it is harder to scout especially if they go greedy earlier nexus builds The thing about 1 base vs 2 base is that you can still open at 2 base style while being aggressive and from time to time it just leads to wins and even victories from the opening alone to weaker players (just from better zealot-probe micro plus just skills or skill issue on the other side) and if it doesnt pay off you can just transition to a macro game which is waaaaaaaaay less risk than just opening with 1 base rushes and you cant get back from there just cause the zerg scouted it with a drone Every just scouting kinda counters alot of the early 1 base pushes nowadays too which is a norm on every race to send a worker scout everytime. While stuff like midmap 1 base 2 rax still works but it's pretty rare imo like people just learned to defend it well like zergs arent even bothered when terrans builds a bunker on their natural. Pretty much even for zerg why 7 pool or the more riskier 4 pool you rarely see them anymore people got better at defending them with workers Like seriously people just pull workers nowadays against 1 bases and if they defend it they are pretty much ahead with the extra natural CC/Hatchery/Nexus Like honestly if you are a better player and you could macro against them there is not alot of incentive to do 1 base pushes when that kinda equalizes the chance of the other player instead But that's imo that's pretty much just my limited understanding what they do as well since i'm not a pro either (nor even a protoss player)
I meant the protoss never played defensive and zergs chances were deemed zero the longer the game went. It also looked that way, protoss just pulverized hatchery after hatchery. You just saw zerg move out of the base and - there goes another hatchery - it simultaneously meant zerg was under defending its bases.
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On August 21 2025 01:43 WombaT wrote:
For those not aware, you’re not arguing with someone who advocates for mixing in one base builds as part of your suite, but someone who actively thinks fast expanding PvZ is just outright bad
OHHHH LOL
Dont you just die in most times if you dont do FE or like modern Gateway expand. I legitimately cant think of a more reliable way of not dying to zerglings consistently early on
Any zerg worth their salt will murder you if you cant reliably close your base with FE or aggressively harass them with early zealots while trying to close your base. Like zerglings are stupidly good units for players who know how to use them
I think even if you dont die to zerglings killing zealots or probes like having zerglings in base is kinda a pain cause the zerg can absolutely tell what you are gonna do which is a bad sign if they can easily tell if you are buying few or alot of corsairs or even skipping it for early legs build
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On August 21 2025 01:43 WombaT wrote:
For those not aware, you’re not arguing with someone who advocates for mixing in one base builds as part of your suite, but someone who actively thinks fast expanding PvZ is just outright bad
I never said fast expanding is bad, fast forge expand(usually how it is done) is wrong in my head. Protoss can expand every bit as quick as zerg, but I don't think forge expands are a good idea. Gateways are the best early game building. Nexuses are the cheapest base for expansion. I'm trying to optimise my way out of forge expanding in general just to prove people wrong protoss is better than they think.
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On August 21 2025 02:10 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2025 00:23 goody153 wrote:On August 20 2025 15:10 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 14:56 goody153 wrote:On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. Dont overpool build break most of the 1 base rushes against zerg iirc ? It seems fairly common build nowadays for zerg Might. All I'm saying is there is a high correlation with what I saw and what Artosis says about the better player demonstrating aggression towards the lesser player even today. All things said and done, I NEVER saw protoss lose on the defensive, that is because they never respected zerg in the past. That is, they were always on the offensive. Maybe we might be looking through retrospective determinism seeing it wasn't so one sided looking at the results, but results are one thing, the gameplay was another. It didn't look that way in the past, protoss always went head first and zerg only survived by the slimmest of chances. Even then, it wasn't by strategy that got zerg pull through into late game. Zerg just limped. Idk man. Protoss players can lose on the aggressive (assuming you meant that "i never saw protoss lose on the defense" cause it made no sense in the paragraph). You know the gateway expand where you start churning zealots as early as possible sending them towards the zerg base Even Mini who is basically the masterclass at doing that opening sometimes still losses to zerg when he makes a missstep and the zealots dies to the zerglings too early and they just straightup lose the game. That's the most aggressive high result opening a pvz can do nowadays and they can still be punished if the protoss missteps Even if you meant the opposite protoss being defensive never losses instead can still lose easily to earlier zergling timing builds on closer spawn maps. Even on big 4 player maps cause it is harder to scout especially if they go greedy earlier nexus builds The thing about 1 base vs 2 base is that you can still open at 2 base style while being aggressive and from time to time it just leads to wins and even victories from the opening alone to weaker players (just from better zealot-probe micro plus just skills or skill issue on the other side) and if it doesnt pay off you can just transition to a macro game which is waaaaaaaaay less risk than just opening with 1 base rushes and you cant get back from there just cause the zerg scouted it with a drone Every just scouting kinda counters alot of the early 1 base pushes nowadays too which is a norm on every race to send a worker scout everytime. While stuff like midmap 1 base 2 rax still works but it's pretty rare imo like people just learned to defend it well like zergs arent even bothered when terrans builds a bunker on their natural. Pretty much even for zerg why 7 pool or the more riskier 4 pool you rarely see them anymore people got better at defending them with workers Like seriously people just pull workers nowadays against 1 bases and if they defend it they are pretty much ahead with the extra natural CC/Hatchery/Nexus Like honestly if you are a better player and you could macro against them there is not alot of incentive to do 1 base pushes when that kinda equalizes the chance of the other player instead But that's imo that's pretty much just my limited understanding what they do as well since i'm not a pro either (nor even a protoss player) I meant the protoss never played defensive and zergs chances were deemed zero the longer the game went. It also looked that way, protoss just pulverized hatchery after hatchery. You just saw zerg move out of the base and - there goes another hatchery - it simultaneously meant zerg was under defending its bases.
Ah ok while less smoother to play against than FE opening protoss cause FE protoss just turtles it doesnt mean gateway openings are like the better bet.
Also plenty of matches where gateway openings backfired like you might be only watching matches where it works lol. If that early zealot dies fast like protoss is kinda on hot water cause that means no more scout, no damage and sometimes the zerg just ends the game with ling flood directly to base lmao
And while higher level zerg players are less willing to like put sunkens on the base cause it cost drones and zerglings can be used on the offensive but that pretty much will also stop trickle zealots lol
FE is just as viable as gateway expand. If you just gateway opening everytime zerg players is 100% gonna open with whatever opening is favored against it all the time as well and will kinda start killing that early zealot pushes and start having more wins with more aggressive zergling openings
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On August 21 2025 02:19 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2025 01:43 WombaT wrote:
For those not aware, you’re not arguing with someone who advocates for mixing in one base builds as part of your suite, but someone who actively thinks fast expanding PvZ is just outright bad I never said fast expanding is bad, fast forge expand(usually how it is done) is wrong in my head. Protoss can expand every bit as quick as zerg, but I don't think forge expands are a good idea. Gateways are the best early game building. Nexuses are the cheapest base for expansion. I'm trying to optimise my way out of forge expanding in general just to prove people wrong protoss is better than they think.
I dont think Gateway Expand can always be somebody's 100% opening.
It's kinda like you cant always get away with upgrade terran for tvz or zerg cant always get away with 3 hatch. Or how you could never always get away with greedy openings
Idk about you but broodwar and even sc2 was more rock paper scissors with builds than there is that one build you always get away with like if you are known as a player who always goes gateway expand players are eventually gonna adapt against you or even have some optimized build to kill your one go-to build and that's not good in the proscene. The best players seem to be mix capable of macro, greedy and more aggressive builds than just macro or greedy or aggressive
Like you have mix FE and GE(is it the acronym for this ?) is a better way to go. Or whatever other protoss openings are that is can lead to macro reliably
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EPT
